Discussion in 'Humankind by Amplitude' started by Matthias Corvinus, Feb 12, 2020.
The British will definitely be an Industrial culture though, well at least not Early Modern.
One thing I am wondering about, were anywhere some general timeframes of ages mentioned? An industrial revolution started in 18th century even though reached its heights in 19th, so 18th century cultures may fit both eras
- Spain and Ottomans are obligatory in EM imho, and both expansionist
- Portugal is very unlikely, as it has the same problem as in Civ, too similar to Spain to get together with it it am so few slots
- Not sure if I know but there was a galleas unique unit spotted by some folk, which would give us renaissance Italy in some shape (Venice I guess, though I'd really prefer aestethe Tuscany)
- Again, Poland was spotted in this era, I am certain it will be agrarian as few civs fit this affinity as well as Poland - Lithuania in the early modern period with its entire socioeconomic model
- Russia is an interesting case, as it could fit both EM and industrial (especially as 18th century has ambiguous position between them, and it was Russians golden age). I expect it being industrial expansionist.
- Britain and France will probably go to industrial because of Napoleonic drama, colonialism, Eiffel tower etc
- Sweden may fit all three eras honestly, first two as militarist and last two as scientist
I mention Sweden and Russia mainly because of the Great Northern War, but their role in the 30 years war was also of major significance. If the designers are indeed targeting specific cultural clashes like the Hundred Years' War and the Imjin War as part of their criteria for inclusion, it strikes me as odd to have Poland in the era, but not the potop szwedzki.
Or maybe I'm way off base and the designers are only considering Poland in the context of the Siege of Vienna?
Well, two rivals in one age is already great, you don't have to maximize that amount at all cost. But your post did actually made me realize that Sweden could happen in EM, not industrial (though I was always putting it in industrial because this era is harder to fill).
Now that we got Japan aestethe, denying its militarist stereotype, I slightly desire militarist Sweden to deny it "calm rationalist haven" stereotype.
If it is early modern Sweden, it will be militaristic for sure. 17th Century Sweden is the proto-militaristic nation that pushed way over their weight with a focus on army prowess. They made scientific advancements, such as new artillery and tactics, but not so much otherwise. The glory of their shipbuilding advancements sunk in the harbor. So yeah, militaristic is pretty much secure if Sweden appears in that era.
I always come back to thinking about new cultures in each era and how they interact with trascending cultures from the past era, and I love that mechanic so much. By having Britain and France on industrial you can have them bash heads against the past era "golden cultures" say Spain and Ottomans. Poland has to deal with Germany and Russia, Ming has to deal with Industrial Japan, etc.
and in that note....If Britain is not industrial we riot.
So we got Haudenosaunee! With Agrarian trait. And Rotiskenrakehte unit and Three Sisters Plantation quarter.
Told you all the don't consider Haudenosaunee too hard to pronounce. Struggling a bit with the unit name myself, though.
I just attempted to Google it, to learn more of what a 'rotiskenrakehte' might be, as I had never heard of it - but Google doesn't tell me much. Do you know what it means, where the word comes from, what it is or signifies?
And no, finally, someone uses Haudenosaunee instead of Iroquois, that is only a very good thing!
Pronunciation wise, ignoring the tone, it would be something like "rodisga-rahgede". The a in rodisga is a nasal, ah is long a, the rest are standard consonants and vowels as in Italian or Polish.
The source our historian gave me translated it as "those who carry the responsibility of protecting the origins" and says it is a Mohawk word (I don't know enough to tell how close the languages spoken by the different members of the Haudenosaunee Confederacy are.)
Many, Many years ago a fellow university student whose family was Haudenosenee explained that each tribe at its own dialect, but they were mutually understandable, except for the Tuscarora, the last group to join the League, whom everybody else thought 'talked funny'. I throw that out for what it's worth as a linguistic analysis from within.
That the word would be Mohawk makes perfect sense, as the Mohawk were the most eastern of the Haudenosenee, and so were the ones in near-constant warfare against the Algonkian-speaking neighbors and enemies to the east and later, the Europeans.
I'm afraid the usage of Mohawk as opposed to other Iroquoian languages is more pragmatic rather than narrative based. Mohawk is the only Iroquoian language with any real community of speakers left (other than Cherokee, but that kinship is purely linguistic). Haudenosaunee, for instance, is not a word in Mohawk, but comes from an observation of the Seneca language. A language that had, in 2012 (i.e. 8 years ago), less than 50 fluent speakers to its name.
Yeah so, my setup is ruined for the second time for this era. One of those cultures doesn't get in. It's either African culture (I doubt that), Mughals ( but quite probable), Venice (galleas somehow turns out to be generic) or Poland (to be honest I wouldn't be offended, we were never the first rate major empire).
My heart breaks as I type that, but I think Mughals won't get in.
- Indian subcontinent is already getting three civs (ancient, classical and almost certainly modern)
- China is almost confirmed to get three (Zhou, Ming and PRC, from some interview)
- Ottomans are Islamic representative in this era (and an African culture may be another)
- They would be either aestethe, builder or expansionist and all those slots have excellent alternatives (Edo, Ming, Spain)
- IIRC its presence was based on the sight of... "Mughal looking architecture", which can be either Taj Mahal obligatory wonder or whatever Persianized architecture (such as Ottoman)
On another hand, I don't remember how was Poland spotted, and its perfect affinity for the Early Modern era, Agrarian, was just taken.
Seeing how both Edo and Iroquis were taken out of the picture, I think industrial era will be:
Austrians (Aestethe), British (Merchant), French (Builder), Iranians (Aestethe), Comanche/Lakota (Militarist), Nepalese (Militarist), Russians (Expansionist), Siamese (Agrarian), Swedish (Scientist), Zulu (Militarist).
Lakota is my sheer desperation of trying to insert native American culture, and Agrarian Siamese is my desperation of trying to insert agrarian culture here, no idea for alternatives here after Edo and Iroquis were lost.
I'm hoping for a Scientist Britain for Industrial era or failing that Builder would be good too but it will probably be merchant because I cant think of any good alternative Merchant cultures for Industrial.
Okay, for now my predicted setup for remaining eras is:
Dutch Merchant, Edo Aestethe, Iroquis Agrarian, Joseon Scientist, Ming Builder, Ottoman Expansionist, Polish Agrarian/Militarist, Kongo/Songhai Militarist, Spanish Expansionist, Venetian Merchant
[alternately, Poland goes into modern era and Mughals Builder are here]
Austro-Hungary/Prussia, British Merchant, Brazilian Agrarian, French Builder, Iranian Aestethe, Nepalese Militarist, Russian Expansionist, Siamese Aestethe, Swedish Scientist, Zulu Militarist
[either Austro - Hungarian Aestethe or Prussian Militarist]
American Merchant, Chinese Builder, Ethiopian Militarist, Indian Agrarian, Italian Scientist, Japanese Scientist, German Builder, Korean Merchant, Soviet Expansionist, Turkey Aestethe.
[alternately, there is a Polish Militarist or Brazil Agrarian instead of Korea or Turkey here]
Why those choices:
Mughals are out of early modern era with a broken heart, I hope I am wrong but if Poland and Venice are confirmed in this era (which is unsure, you could kinda put Poland in the modern era and unique galleas could be a mistake) then there is no place for them. In the industrial I am completely torn between Austro-Hungary and Prussia, and they'd be either aestethe or militarist and both affinities have two assumed representatives already. But the major change is moving Brazil from modern to industrial and putting Turkey instead. Why? Because I couldn't think of any Agrarian representative in the industrial era who would be outside Latin America or Japan (already taken), Brazil works here as well as in modern era due to its importance (it actually had sort of a golden age under Pedro's Empire), it is less "roleplay world war generating" than Turkey in the modern era, and there would be already one modern American culture while there was a lack of an Islamic one. And also: Ottomans would get a follow up, and devs are fond of this kind of cultural connections. Aestethe because of representing the entire "oh cool exotic architecture, dances, carpets, tourism, beauty etc" sort of thing, as well as general power of Turkish TV shows, writers (Orhan Pamuk) etc. And because the alternate affinity would be incredibly controversial in case of modern Turkey - militarist
I did a search on bing and the first thing that popped up is it seems to be a Mohawk word for "Warrior Society".
The Warrior Society in question is an older paramilitary group. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mohawk_Warrior_Society
As far as the word itself, I've searched far and wide by now. It most definitely means warrior in some way but I haven't found a single analysis of the word itself. Some books and people list it as "protectors of peace", "they carry the burden of peace" and variants thereof, http://www.kahnawakelonghouse.com/index.php?mid=1&p=3 throws in two more explanations as either "earth carriers" or "bone carriers". So that's what the Mohawks tell you.
Going outside of the Mohawk language, however Onondaga and Seneca both have the same word, as much as 3 related languages can, anyway Rotisken’ra:kehte (moh) [Rodisgę'ra:gehde'] - Hodisgęˀęgéhdah (ono) - Hodísgë’ë́gehda’ (see). They do not sugarcoat things, talk of peace, bones, or land. According to them it simply means warriors/young men (think much the same as in Romance languages with infantry <-> infant <-> young ones).
Likewise, both Mohawk and Seneca create the word for the Sun, the "great warrior" by taking the respective words listed here and adding a "big/great" suffix after it. And it simply doesn't make sense to have a society this militarised (males all get warrior tattoos, institutional warfare/raiding/torment present, kill counts etched on weapons, the supreme god is also the god of war) not have any warrior terminology. Seneca dictionaries also give more warrior related terminology. For instance, warriors also supposedly went by "Burnt Knives" (as in, that's supposedly a warrior's name).
Finally, though, the work here: https://mspace.lib.umanitoba.ca/bit...d=5C00C9C53EA551336E5AD8C17E618775?sequence=1 seems to put things on better linguistic grounds. The words themselves almost all mean "warriors" in the present languages. The historical linguistics then picks up the "bone carriers" mentioned earlier as the ultimate origin of the word, though obviously lost to time/reconstructed.
Since Edo Japanese are Aesthete, and Joseon are Scientist, I'm guessing the Ming would have a different trait-Merchant?, Agrarian?, Builder?, Militarist? or Expansionist?
My guess is Builder. The Forbidden City, the Temple of Heaven, and the Great Wall as it stands all date from Ming, and those are among the first things to pop up when most Westerners think of Imperial China.
Separate names with a comma.