Culture (Unit + Quarter) Speculation Thread

[BuchiTaton]

I have two reasons why military technology should be a very important way to determinate the eras:
1- Looking to history militar techonology is the first to be implemente by others cultures, from the iron weapons, chariots, stirrup, crossbow, guns, etc.
We just need to look to the relevance of modern automatic weapons for the small nations shattered by inter tribal wars on Africa. We have innumerable examples of different societies with all different ways of life, religions, governments, etc. but they allways want to have the last militar technology despite their traditions, systems or beliefs.

2- One of the few distictive element of each culture is the EU, and we know that most of them by far are supposed to be militar units.

 

[Kouvb593kdnuewnd]

Technology only partly determine your culture era due to the fame system, thus you could potentially be an ancient civilization while being at medieval era technology. Military technology is a part of the technology tree, but not every technology is a military technology and it seems like each era will have a few basic unit types which are upgrades upon the past era basic units.

If look at the difference in military technology between medieval and early modern in Humankind, the big difference is the lack of gunpowder units in medieval. However in Humankind you don't become an early modern culture because you have gunpowder weapons because advancing in terms of culture in Humankind require more than just technology. Thus you can have vastly different technology situations between civilizations, without major differences in fame or eras and focusing all resources on technology and forgoing everything else may not be the optimal way to play the game.

My understanding of EU and EQ is you still need technology, likely in the same era as the culture is considered to be of to unlock them, however I guess there may be exceptions.

I think is a problem to have an Industrial Era that pút together line infantry fusiliers and early jet fighters.

My guess is the game will ignore many technology differences in an era, such as all different musket fire locks and do like civilization games and give each era one infantry type, one cavalry type, one ranged unit, one siege weapon and so on.

 

[Boris Gudenuf]

As I understand it, to advance to a new Era you need 7 Fame Points. You can only get a maximum of 3 such points from each category, and while I don't remember seeing anywhere what all the categories are, one of them has to do with military action - killing units and such, and one has to do with Science - getting Technologies.

That means that concentrating on advanced weapons' technology and using it will still leave you 1 Fame Point short of advancing, so you would have to do something else - increase Population, Gold, number of regions/territories, number of cities, in order to advance before somebody else swipes your favorite Faction out of the next Era.

So, yes, going all militaristic is a viable strategy, but not necessarily the best one - there are a bunch of other ways to advance in Eras, and depending on your situation, they may get you the 7 required Points faster. I strongly suspect the game is designed to make flexible Strategy the best way to win - trying to operate the same way from start to finish will probably turn out to be Sub-Optimal, just as picking Factions of the same type Era after Era only gets you one type of Legacy Bonus when switching them up can get you Bonuses in several areas and, therefore, make it easier to advance.

 

[mitsho]

Right, but you can get more than 7 fame points per era, right? Because winning is based on your fame at the end. So the lowest number you can get is 6x7 = 42 fame stars if you make it to the end. But in order to win you need to collect more stars in some eras or to transcend once or twice as that doubles the stars you get from doing stuff, right?

That's not quite clear to me yet.

 

[Siptah]

There’s also competitive stars from great deeds. And the fame value of a star depends on your current affinity and how long you already are in that era. So you always want to get these per era that fit your affinity, and fast.
Stars of the same category get more „expensive“ depending on how many of these you already collected (but I heard this is not final), so if you always go science/battles, it will get quite hard to get the stars, while there is some really low hanging fruit in other categories. It sounds like a flexible all-rounder approach is the go-to strategy.

 

[mitsho]

Wait, so the fame stars have a fame value? I just thought you would count them: 1, 2, 3,... and so on. That makes it more complicated, but easier to balance.

I forgot about the other ways to get fame stars, so thanks for the reminder. That makes for some good variation.

 

[Siptah]

The fame value seems unimportant for era progress though, it‘s „only“ for the victory.

 

[Boris Gudenuf]

As I understand it (and, no, I'm not entirely sure that I DO understand it). Fame Stars, 7, are required to advance to the next Era. Fame Points Score is what wins the game. Getting Fame Stars that are associated with your Faction's affiliation (like, killing enemy units as a Militarist or gaining heaps of Gold as a Mercantile Faction) will not only get you Fame Stars, but also pile up more Fame Points.

The sneaky part is that simply concentrating on maxing Fame Points by sticking to your affiliation will not give you enough Stars to Advance, because there are not enough Stars in any one affiliation to get you to the next Era. You are required, therefore, to 'generalize' to get anywhere. There is a synergy in that the Stars relevent to your affiliation (I assume) will be easier to get: a Militaistic Faction should be better at War, and therefore should sweep up 'war-related' Fame faster. But that will not be enough to get that Faction a rapid advance to the next Era.

I don't know what the exact relationship is between Fame Stars and Fame Points is, but it's definitely flexible, having seen screenshots where a Faction has, apparently, 3 - 4 Fame Stars and 300 or more Fame Points. The Stars are only for that Era, but the Points accumulate throughout the game for final victory.

One question that occurs to me: does anyone know if you can Lose Fame Points or Fame Stars? That is, if your Expansionist Stars are related to acquiring territories and you lose territories, does the Star AND Points total both go down, or just the Stars, or neither?

 

[Elhoim]

Here's the focus video about fame:

I'm sure I saw the implemented screen somewhere, but it's more or less like this:

What I recall is that once you get 7 stars, the fame you get from the tasks starts getting smaller. But also if you go to the next era, the tasks might be harder.

 

[Boris Gudenuf]

Okay, there are now officially too many Humankind Videos floating around, 'cause I missed that one completely!

So, at least in the Era showing, you get 100 Fame Points for achieving all 3 'Stars' in each area except your affiliated area, for which you get 110. Then you can also get Fame points for building and maintaining Wonders and probably for other activities. The +10% Points for affiliation is not really that huge given that you will have to complete 7 Stars total, or 4 from other areas, to advance.
And, exactly right, the thresholds for achieving Fame Stars are supposed to get harder in each succeeding Era, BUT, if you plan correctly, I suspect you may have more resources in a given area to achieve them. You might have to destroy 6 instead of 3 enemy military units, but if you have an army of 15 - 20 units instead of 4 - 6, it gets much easier in fact!

 

[Catoninetales_Amplitude]

Right, but you can get more than 7 fame points per era, right? Because winning is based on your fame at the end. So the lowest number you can get is 6x7 = 42 fame stars if you make it to the end. But in order to win you need to collect more stars in some eras or to transcend once or twice as that doubles the stars you get from doing stuff, right?

Transcending is not connected directly to the era stars. Transcending is a normal transition into a new era, so you get the same era star objectives as if you had picked a new culture.

There’s also competitive stars from great deeds. And the fame value of a star depends on your current affinity and how long you already are in that era. So you always want to get these per era that fit your affinity, and fast.
Stars of the same category get more „expensive“ depending on how many of these you already collected (but I heard this is not final), so if you always go science/battles, it will get quite hard to get the stars, while there is some really low hanging fruit in other categories. It sounds like a flexible all-rounder approach is the go-to strategy.

Yes, the new thresholds for the era stars will depend on your previous performance. Specifics are of course still being balanced, but to make up some numbers for Boris' military example from the previous post:
Say in the ancient Era you get the Military stars for defeating 3/6/9 units.
Player A does not engage in battle at all before they enter the Classical. Their goals update to 5/10/15 units killed.
Player B fought a war with a neighbor, so they got the "gold" fame star for military. Their new thresholds are 12/18/24.

One question that occurs to me: does anyone know if you can Lose Fame Points or Fame Stars? That is, if your Expansionist Stars are related to acquiring territories and you lose territories, does the Star AND Points total both go down, or just the Stars, or neither?

No, Fame is never lost. If you gained Fame for creating a vast empire with a massive population, you don't lost that fame just because somebody comes knocking down all your cities. The same is true for Wonders: The builder gets the Fame, even if somebody else conquers it later.

What I recall is that once you get 7 stars, the fame you get from the tasks starts getting smaller. But also if you go to the next era, the tasks might be harder.

The fame value decreases with time, not with number of starts acquired, as far as I recall.

Also, "Competitive Deeds" only grant Fame, not Era Stars, so they cannot be used to enter another era.

 

[Guandao]

Now that the Ottomans have been revealed and Early Modern era is complete, let us speculate about the ten factions for the Industrial Era! There's really nothing certain about which cultures are appearing in this era.

Reposting my guesses:
Industrial Era:
1. Austro-Hungarians (Aesthete) (wrong about their name, and their trait, guessed Merchant)
2. British (Expansionist) (considered Scientist or Merchant for them also)
3. French (Scientist) (considered Expansionist because of Napoleon but thankfully they are not)
4. Germans (Militarist) (considered Expansionist and Scientist)
5. Italians (Aesthete) (guessed trait correctly)
6. Mexicans (Agrarian) (considered Aesthete also)
7. Persians (Builder) (considered Merchant, and I also though they were gonna be called Qajar, what will happen to Classical era Persians?)
8. Russians (Expansionist) (considered Agrarian also )
9. Siamese (Builder) (considered Merchant also)
10. Zulu (Militarist) (guessed correctly)

Runner ups/DLC material: Gran Colombians, Ethiopians, Moroccans, Afghans, Ashanti, Sioux, Vietnamese, Argentines (not appearing in vanilla...), Swedish

 

[j51]

My guesses:

Austrian (aesthete)
British (expansionist or merchant)
Ethiopian (aesthete)
French (builder)
Omani (merchant)
Russian (expansionist)
Siamese (agrarian)
Sioux (militarist)
Swedish (scientist)
Zulu (militarist)

I'm really looking forward to these reveals as we know so little about it compared to the previous eras. Also there are 4 cultures beginning with A that would fit excellently:
Afghan, Argentine, Asante, Austrian. So next week should be exciting!

 

[Elhoim]

Come on Argentina, I have faith in you!

 

[mitsho]

Let's see, the original guess list I wrote when Humankind was announced: American Colonies, Cherokee, Ethiopia, French, Germany, Japan, Mughals, Sweden, United Kingdom of Great Britain, Zulu. Now that lists just reads wrong for so many reason, but I still feel, I got half of them right. If I revise it, I'd get now:

1. British (I had UK as a name, but British works just as well, they are quintessential, I hope they are scientific
2. Cherokee (I still feel, one more Native American Civ is warranted, the Sioux are also a possibility, plain raiders, why not?)
3. Ethiopian* (I can see them in modern era as well, but they do fit here as well, especially as we got our token African and Middle Eastern candidates and they would tick off both kinda)
4. French (to be fair though, the big French time kinda feels pre-industrial revolution, but this way, they can add in a Louis XIV-culture later on and have this one focus on Napoleon and the Eiffel Tower)
5. Iranians (they feel like slotted in as a token Middle Eastern culture here. Maybe the modern era got too tight? But they were kinda semi-confirmed)
6. Mexico ( I do feel that it's an iconic culture and more so than Argentine and fits better here than in the Modern Era - and hey I wanted a wild card in my list that other people don't have)
7. Russia (We want the Soviets, so Russia must come here - and they deserve it: Huzzah! (everyone should watch the tv show "The Great" by the way)
8. Siam (One truly Asian culture feels fitting, and Siam is important. I didn't have them as I wanted a modern Vietnam to get that Vietnam-United States pairing)
9. Swedish (apparently we're theming around their wars against Russia? Honestly, I'd feel Sweden would fit better within the Early Modern Ear (30 years war) or modernity (the Scandinavian Welfare State))
10. Zulu (I don't like them, but apparently they are iconic and can oppose the British with a fresh style of play - there are so many more interesting African cultures to chose from though).

Runner ups:

I do feel like the US is missing here: The civil war had a very special aesthetic and the push towards the colonization of the Wild West feels like a good gameplay role to fill out and be a good pairing with the Native American Faction - playing "cowboys and indians" like we did as Children. But if they don't want to repeat the name, I have a hard time to find a name that fits: Colonial America? The United States (and have the Modern ones be named the Americans?) - or vice versa? Texans? Union? They did this with Edo Japanese, so it's doable - but how? Switch them out above for the Ethiopians to get a good "Wild West" US-Native Americans-Mexicans scenario going on.

Speaking of, Meij Japan or simply "The Japanese" seem to be a given given the naming of the Early Modern Japanese - I do feel however that the modern Era might be flavoured around World War 2 - and then they fit in perfectly with all the other combatants of that war. That theming would also allow them to add a new era in at the end as a DLC with cultures themed around the year 2020. But since WW2 is at the tail end of the Industrial Era, they would fit also very well in within the Industrial Era.

Austria does fit the era and would fill the slot in the (Western) European triangle of England-France-Germany. It'd be a reversal of the Siege of Vienna though if Austrians are Industrial and Ottomans Early Modern. They'd take the place of my wildcard Mexico of course. Prussia would also be a possibility and fit a Seven-Year-War scenario as well as with regard to Sweden/Russia and a Poland that's one era behind. For marketing reasons, Austria trumps Prussia who can always be in a DLC that Germans want to buy as well. On the other hand, what if they give us Austria-Hungary as a culture?

Another Wildcard is Morocco or another Barbary State. While Morocco itself probably fits better into the Early Modern Era, the look&feel of the Barbary states is certainly emblematic. And they deserve a spot, so why not here? Plus they do interact with the French, the Americans and the Spanish and Ottomans from an Era before.

---

So, long story short, I do feel like we will get a nice round-up here and not many contenders left for a DLC. I do feel though that we need the Americans already here, they're just so emblematic and well - a big market.

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

10 slots for Industrial Era:


British: Expansionist
French: Aesthete
Germans: Builder
Iranians: Militarist
Mexicans: Agrarian
Russian: Expansionist
Siam: Merchant
Sioux: Militarist
Swedish: Scientific
Zulu: Militarist

I also though of Meiji Japanese but I'm sure that a Modern Japan culture is coming and elements of that can fit into that design.
I think that maybe Ethiopians and Italians will show up in Modern Era.

Edit: I changed Gran Colombia to Mexico and put Sioux over Americans. Also since this era goes to 1920s I changed Austrians to Germans.

 

[aguaacrobata2]

Now that the Ottomans have been revealed and Early Modern era is complete, let us speculate about the ten factions for the Industrial Era! There's really nothing certain about which cultures are appearing in this era.

Reposting my guesses:
Industrial Era:
1. Argentines (Agrarian)
2. Austrians (Merchant)
3. British (Scientist, Expansionist, or Merchant)
4. Ethiopians (Militarist or Aesthete)
5. French (Expansionist)
6. Iranians (Militarist or Aesthete)
7. Italians (Aesthete)
8. Russians (Agrarian)
9. Siamese (Aesthete)
10. Zulu (Militarist)

Runner ups/DLC material: Gran Colombians, Moroccans, Afghans, Mexicans, Ashanti, Sioux, Vietnamese, Prussians,

Come on Argentina, I have faith in you!

As much as I would love Argentina to be in the base Game I don't see it happening. During the second OpenDev live stream Cat was asked if there were going to be any South American cultures and she said that she could only remember one South American culture being in the base Game, and that must be Brazil.

Maybe as a DLC...

 

[Jcturmer]

Confirmed
1- Iran
2- Mexico
3- Siam
4- Russia
5- Germany
Not confirmed but probably
6- UK
7- France
8- Zulu
9- Sweden?? Maybe it will be in the last era, (welfare state) but Alfred Nobel belongs to the industrial age.
10- Wildcard: Austria? Sioux? Maori?

 

[Narcisse]

Not so much free slots for this era, only one wildcard and the possible modern swedes.
Obviously it's not 100% confirmed for Iran and Mexico, it's supposed from the openDev Outro and the sombrero artwork, but could be another middle-eastern or post-colonial / south american culture.

Yes for the wildcard, I feel a Native American culture, seems weird for me to have lonely Haudes with nothing to trenscend or go into. Sioux, Cherokee, Apaches.
Maybe Ethopians additionally to Zulu to compensate for the early modern era without one African culture.

But I can totally imagine to have Austrians (aesthete + hungarian hussars + a beautiful summer palace), Italian (Empire, but could be modern too), Meiji Japanese (builder ?), Argentinian (really rich at a moment of the indutrial period, and refreshing addition for the 4X verse, with maybe Argentinian cowboy / tropero as EU), Hawaii, Scottish, Afgans or Belgian.

The ones I am not convinced, Prussians, seems redundant with Militarist Germans, and industrial Americans, I feel than another culture can fit their archetype.

I think we will have more surprises in that era ! Even if some of the expectations seems solid, I'm not totally sure for some of them personnally. Next week will be cool, imagine an unexpected American, Austrian, Argentinian, Apaches or Afghans insteads of Brits

 

[Kouvb593kdnuewnd]

9. Swedish (apparently we're theming around their wars against Russia? Honestly, I'd feel Sweden would fit better within the Early Modern Ear (30 years war) or modernity (the Scandinavian Welfare State))

If the industrial era start year 1700, you have the great nordic war and then a few other wars during the 1700s culminating in the war of 1808-1809 in which Finland was taken by Russia and then the forced union with Norway in 1814 after which Sweden have not been in any more wars.