Culture (Unit + Quarter) Speculation Thread

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

Actually, no, you revealed something more bizarre Alexander... I remember than the reference of the EQ was a mosque. And I found it back ... It's the Larabanga Mosque, which is exactly the same, but ... is famous to be the most ancient mosque in actual Ghana.

Well color me surprised. I'm still not quite sure about how historically accurate the EU is though.

Is there any chance that Japan will be in the industrial era?

Considering it looks like they are theming these cultures around WWI, I expect a "modern" Japan to show up in Contemporary with a WWII theme and beyond with a Zero Fighter EU and Zaibatsu EQ (as a nod to Industrial Meiji).
I can also see Vietnam show up as a surprise but maybe 4 East Asian cultures might be too much.

 

[notNamed]

On the other hand, if we follow the Japanese periodization naming convention, after Edo Japan there will be Meiji Japan (Industrial), Taisho Japan (probably still Industrial), and Showa Japan. Showa Japan is obviously a Contemporary culture, but "Showa" can generate some controversy since it is the period that covers the WWII Japan.

Among people who have a distaste for Shouwa Japan, Meiji Japan is nothing different.
Keep in mind it was Meiji which started the whole warmongering expansion, it was Meiji which colonised Okinawa, Korea and Taiwan. It was Meiji which set up a government so that military would have the power to run the whole place. It was Meiji which adopted the rising sun flag, carried out targeted assassinations against Korean inteligentsia, particularly their royal family. They carried out a pretty nasty massacre of Port Arthur, Peking/Beijing and so on.
The main difference between Meiji and WW2 Shouwa is that Meiji was a pro-western brutal imperialist powerhouse while by Shouwa, the perception of the west soured (thanks in large part to the way the west refused to treat them as equal during Meiji) and they turned into an anti-western brutal imperialist powerhouse. Heck, I've even read opinions of people which can be basically summed up by saying the brutality of WW2 Japanese army was basically the same as brutality of Meiji/western colonial armies. The "west", however, started easing up on this after WW1 and that particular development simply never reached Japan. So if you subscribe to this idea, the whole black portion of Shouwa history is the part where they are, ironically, too much like Meiji, instead of the opposite.

Meiji is controversial. It's the Meiji Restoration that's not. Any flags from the period are obviously NG. I remember a recent incident where a game featured a Taishou female outfit and got some amount of flak for it online in Korea (though there's no similar controversy over the same clothing style appearing on Sakura Wars' main heroine, so mileage definitely warries... people who play Sakura Wars are probably not the same kind who'd have a distaste towards Japanese past, unlike folks who play historical strategy games made in the west).

 

[8housesofelixir]

Among people who have a distaste for Shouwa Japan, Meiji Japan is nothing different.
Keep in mind it was Meiji which started the whole warmongering expansion, it was Meiji which colonised Okinawa, Korea and Taiwan. It was Meiji which set up a government so that military would have the power to run the whole place. It was Meiji which adopted the rising sun flag, carried out targeted assassinations against Korean inteligentsia, particularly their royal family. They carried out a pretty nasty massacre of Port Arthur, Peking/Beijing and so on.
The main difference between Meiji and WW2 Shouwa is that Meiji was a pro-western brutal imperialist powerhouse while by Shouwa, the perception of the west soured (thanks in large part to the way the west refused to treat them as equal during Meiji) and they turned into an anti-western brutal imperialist powerhouse. Heck, I've even read opinions of people which can be basically summed up by saying the brutality of WW2 Japanese army was basically the same as brutality of Meiji/western colonial armies. The "west", however, started easing up on this after WW1 and that particular development simply never reached Japan. So if you subscribe to this idea, the whole black portion of Shouwa history is the part where they are, ironically, too much like Meiji, instead of the opposite.

Meiji is controversial. It's the Meiji Restoration that's not. Any flags from the period are obviously NG. I remember a recent incident where a game featured a Taishou female outfit and got some amount of flak for it online in Korea (though there's no similar controversy over the same clothing style appearing on Sakura Wars' main heroine, so mileage definitely warries... people who play Sakura Wars are probably not the same kind who'd have a distaste towards Japanese past, unlike folks who play historical strategy games made in the west).

If following the same argument then the expansionist British is as controversial as Meiji Japan, and every era of Early Modern Japan is as controversial as Showa Japan. Toyotomi Hideyoshi tried to colonize Korea; Tokugawa regime treat Burakumin badly; and Taisho Japan had massacred Korean and Chinese who lived in Tokyo during Great Kanto earthquake.

One can always find nasty things done by certain regime, and there will be people who find any certain culture controversial. And historical 4x games will include them anyway.

But there is an exception: WWII Axis powers. One can argue that Nazi Germany has the same level of brutality of German Empire (check what German had done to Poland in WWI), can argue that Showa Japan has the same level of brutality of Meiji or Taisho Japan - but at the end of day it is always that German Empire and Meiji Japan got into historical 4x games while the Axis version of them did not (they did get into WWII strategy games but that's another realm).
I would also say trace the whole black portion of Showa Japan to Meiji Japan is a very bad historical take. Image one traces Nazi Ideology to the Constitution of German Empire. Even the negative image of the Rising Sun flag was deeply connected to Showa Japan instead of Meiji Japan.

That was my argument: Showa Japan will be controversial because it was a WWII Axis power. Meiji Japan was not.

One side note: There isn't a thing called "Beijing Massacre" done by Meiji Japan - as a Chinese I can safely tell you that didn't happen. Meiji Japan certainly had controversies but invent things out of thin air was not one of them.

 

[notNamed]

One side note: There isn't a thing called "Beijing Massacre" done by Meiji Japan - as a Chinese I can safely tell you that didn't happen. Meiji Japan certainly had controversies but invent things out of thin air was not one of them.

There is, it's just never been a diplomatic issue (at least as far as I'm aware, it was used as a part of the anti-German slogans equating them to Hunnish pillagers in the world wars) so it never got a name.
I was referring to the mess the Eight-Nation Alliance (Japan being a part of it) did in Beijing after they took control of the city.

And as far as Shouwa to Meiji vs Germany to 3rd Reich is concerned, one of these involved a radical shift in the whole government structure. It went through numerous revolutions, civil wars, rewrote its constitution, et cetera.
Nothing of the sort happened with Japan. They weren't even hit by The Great Depression, in fact they profited from it. Though ultimately I must concede the point that it comes down to them joining the Axis.

 

[8housesofelixir]

I was referring to the mess the Eight-Nation Alliance (Japan being a part of it) did in Beijing after they took control of the city.

Again, I can safely tell you Meiji Japan did no such thing in Beijing in 1900. Many Chinese newspapers even recorded that, because the German troops of the Eight-Nation Alliance done a lot of looting, many Beijing locals sought protections from American and Japanese troops - both, in 1900's Beijing, interestingly, had a reputation of highly disciplined - to avoid looting.

It went through numerous revolutions, civil wars, rewrote its constitution, et cetera. Nothing of the sort happened with Japan. They weren't even hit by The Great Depression, in fact they profited from it.

That's a bold and inaccurate assumption. Personally, I would suggest a more careful research before making an assumption like this.

Japan was in fact being hit very hard (my apologies, it seems this page doesn't have an English version), and resulted in a series of military coups in the 1930s - notably May 15 Incident and February 26 Incident, schemed by young officers who thought the widespread poverty among Japanese farmers was created by "privileged classes" in the government.
Before in Taisho Period, the Japanese government still can control military; after the Feb. 26 incident, the military demanded that both Minister of Army and Navy should be commissioned officers from Army or Navy, rather than civilian officials. This gave the military a strong leverage over the civilian government and eventually pushed Japan into Axis powers.
Besides coups, radical shift in the whole government structure though "peaceful" means also happened in Japan; see Imperial Rule Assistance Association for example.

TL;DR: Early Showa Japan was in fact radically different from both Meiji and Taisho Japan. Not as that different compare to German Empire-Weimar Germany-Nazi Germany, but still far from a "natural" transition within the government.

 

[leif erikson]

Moderator Action: This thread is about "What culture and what quarters/units do you want to be in Humankind?" Please get back to topic. Thanks.

 

[Guandao]

So Mexico was confirmed today. I guess we can expect the Qajar next week. Then the Russians, Siamese, and Zulu (either that or Swedish).

My current guesses for the Contemporary Era factions:
1. Americans (Militarist or Scientist)
2. Australians (Merchant or Aesthete)
3. Brazilians (Militarist or Agrarian)
4. Chinese (Merchant or Builder)
5. Indians (Aesthete)
6. Japanese (Aesthete or Merchant) (they might have an era in their name, maybe)
7. South Africans (Merchant)
8. South Koreans (Scientist, or Aesthete)
9. Soviets (Builder, Militarist, or Scientist)
10. Swedish (Scientist)

I'm not sure about any of them getting an Expansionist trait.....
Runner-Ups: Turkish, Saudi Arabians, Nigerians, Finnish, Filipinos, Lebanese, Canadians, Indonesians, Thai, Iranians, Singaporeans, Swiss, Vietnamese, Emiratis, Argentinians, Pakistanis, New Zealanders, Colombians, Peruvians, Chileans,

 

[8housesofelixir]

As of now, for the Industrial Era, we have:

Austro-Hungary
Britain
France
Germany
Italy
Mexico

Considering that Humankind culture reveals tend to follow the alphabetical order, I would say having a "Mex-" means no Meiji Japan, and they will probably use "Qajar" to refer Iran.

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

My current guesses for the Contemporary Era factions:
1. Americans (Militarist or Scientist)
2. Australians (Merchant or Aesthete)
3. Brazilians (Militarist or Agrarian)
4. Chinese (Merchant or Builder)
5. Indians (Aesthete)
6. Japanese (Aesthete or Merchant) (they might have an era in their name, maybe)
7. South Africans (Merchant)
8. South Koreans (Scientist, or Aesthete)
9. Soviets (Builder, Militarist, or Scientist)
10. Swedish (Scientist)

I'm not sure about any of them getting an Expansionist trait.....
Runner-Ups: Turkish, Saudi Arabians, Nigerians, Finnish, Filipinos, Lebanese, Canadians, Indonesians, Thai, Iranians, Singaporeans, Swiss, Vietnamese, Emiratis, Argentinians, Pakistanis, New Zealanders, Colombians, Peruvians, Chileans,

Where are the Ethiopians?
I'm expecting them at least over South Africa and I can see Canadians over Australians possibly.

 

[8housesofelixir]

My current guesses for the Contemporary Era factions:
1. Americans (Militarist or Scientist)
2. Australians (Merchant or Aesthete)
3. Brazilians (Militarist or Agrarian)
4. Chinese (Merchant or Builder)
5. Indians (Aesthete)
6. Japanese (Aesthete or Merchant) (they might have an era in their name, maybe)
7. South Africans (Merchant)
8. South Koreans (Scientist, or Aesthete)
9. Soviets (Builder, Militarist, or Scientist)
10. Swedish (Scientist)

America, Japan, India, South Korea, and Soviet are very likely.

On the other hand I don't think Contemporary China is a good choice, not because controversies, but because the Builder characteristic of Contemporary China largely lies in the Communist rule of China, which would be a duplication of traits of the Soviets.

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

America, Japan, India, South Korea, and Soviet are very likely.

On the other hand I don't think Contemporary China is a good choice, not because controversies, but because the Builder characteristic of Contemporary China largely lies in the Communist rule of China, which would be a duplication of traits of the Soviets.

I think it was already confirmed in the beginning that Contemporary Chinese will be in the game.
That being said the Soviets could easily be expansionist instead.

Also India better have a Bollywood EQ.

 

[Narcisse]

well the expectations from openDev outro seems to be good. Only Zulu is maybe someone else. (another african culture)
Qajar or Zand - Iran/Persia, Russians, and Siamese are sure expectations for me
Iran as builder or aesthete. Siamese as merchant or builder. Russians as expansionist or scientist or aesthete. Zulu as militarist.

My expectations for contemporary (some of them, I have more than 10 suggestions)
American (Cold War), Soviets (Cold War), Chinese (Early PRC), India (post WW2), Iraq (Iraqian Revolt and independance on Brits), Saoudi (all hail petrolium), Finnish (WW2, but unlikely bc Swedes), Yugoslav (because why not but unlikely), Brazilian, Australian (both for modern architecture imagery), Nigeria, Botswana, Ethiopia, Indonesia, Japan

 

[Krajzen]

well the expectations from openDev outro seems to be good. Only Zulu is maybe someone else. (another african culture)
Qajar or Zand - Iran/Persia, Russians, and Siamese are sure expectations for me
Iran as builder or aesthete. Siamese as merchant or builder. Russians as expansionist or scientist or aesthete. Zulu as militarist.

My expectations for contemporary (some of them, I have more than 10 suggestions)
American (Cold War), Soviets (Cold War), Chinese (Early PRC), India (post WW2), Iraq (Iraqian Revolt and independance on Brits), Saoudi (all hail petrolium), Finnish (WW2, but unlikely bc Swedes), Yugoslav (because why not but unlikely), Brazilian, Australian (both for modern architecture imagery), Nigeria, Botswana, Ethiopia, Indonesia, Japan

I think remaining cultures will be builder Qajar Iran, merchant Siam, militarist Zulu, and expansionist Russia. So we'd get very cool industrial setup (except 6 out of 10 civs are European which makes our OCD angry )

And in the modern era: merchant America, agrarian Brazil, builder China, agrarian Ethiopia, aestethe India, whatever Japan, whatever Korea, expansionist Soviet, scientist Sweden and militarist Vietnam.

At first I have put Turkey instead of Vietnam, to give any slot to Islam, but then I have realized HK devs don't give a damn about any kind of symmetry, they seem to put rival cultures to generate "what if" scenarios. So Vietnam gets here to simulate the Cold War, along America, Soviets, China, India, Korea and Ethiopia. Vietnam is also seem to be one of very few modern cultures which you can put with the "militarist affinity" and make people happy instead of offended. It also covers South East Asia, which was more significant for global politics in 20th century than in any time before. Islam does get nobody for a while, but Africa got nobody for early modern and industrial is 65% European so whatever. Mexico counts as half European
You could make "Cold War theme" even stronger by replacing Sweden with Czechoslovakia and Brazil with Cuba, but I don't think they'd go that far (remember: no symmetry!)

This way we get napoleonic & ww1 party in the industrial era, and partial ww2 & cold war in the modern era.

 

[Narcisse]

oh yes I forgot Czechoslovakia. My top "Islamic culture" pick additionally to the ones of Arabian peninsula, would be modern Egypt, but seems unlikely because naming problem.
To have Ancient Egypt -> Greek -> Ummayad (Mamluk later ?) -> Ottomans -> Brits -> Modern Egypt (independance from Brits, taking Suez and their destiny in hands, militarist)

 

[ehecatzin]

As of now, for the Industrial Era, we have:

Austro-Hungary
Britain
France
Germany
Italy
Mexico

Considering that Humankind culture reveals tend to follow the alphabetical order, I would say having a "Mex-" means no Meiji Japan, and they will probably use "Qajar" to refer Iran.

Color me surprised if that's the case, I was really hoping Japan would be the industrial Asian representative, and later Korea could pick up contemporary as an Asian tiger merchant culture. but as long as we get a full rooster between industrial and contemporary to play out WW II and Cold war, I'll be happy. Hopefully that also means, CCP, Korea, and Japan all on contemporary.

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

Color me surprised if that's the case, I was really hoping Japan would be the industrial Asian representative, and later Korea could pick up contemporary as an Asian tiger merchant culture. but as long as we get a full rooster between industrial and contemporary to play out WW II and Cold war, I'll be happy. Hopefully that also means, CCP, Korea, and Japan all on contemporary.

It looks to be Siam which I'm fine with considering modern Japan will probably have a nod to Meiji Japan in their design maybe like a Zaibatsu EQ.

 

[Xandinho]

So Mexico was confirmed today. I guess we can expect the Qajar next week. Then the Russians, Siamese, and Zulu (either that or Swedish).

My current guesses for the Contemporary Era factions:
1. Americans (Militarist or Scientist)
2. Australians (Merchant or Aesthete)
3. Brazilians (Militarist or Agrarian)
4. Chinese (Merchant or Builder)
5. Indians (Aesthete)
6. Japanese (Aesthete or Merchant) (they might have an era in their name, maybe)
7. South Africans (Merchant)
8. South Koreans (Scientist, or Aesthete)
9. Soviets (Builder, Militarist, or Scientist)
10. Swedish (Scientist)

I'm not sure about any of them getting an Expansionist trait.....
Runner-Ups: Turkish, Saudi Arabians, Nigerians, Finnish, Filipinos, Lebanese, Canadians, Indonesians, Thai, Iranians, Singaporeans, Swiss, Vietnamese, Emiratis, Argentinians, Pakistanis, New Zealanders, Colombians, Peruvians, Chileans,

Why do people think that Brazil can be militarist? Brazil has no warmongering history in the modern era apart from its small involvement in WWII. Brazil would only make a little bit of sense as a militarist if it were in the industrial era, because of the Paraguayan War and the suppression of revolts.

Also, I'm skeptical about the Koreans in the base game, I don't know if they would launch three far east cultures in the base game, given that China and Japan will certainly be there. If a third one is there, I'd say that Vietnam or Indonesia has more chances.

I think Ethiopians make more sense than South Africans. Not having Ethiopia as a late culture would be a little shameful, if not in the industrial era, then it must be in the contemporary era.

Finally, I think the Australians will not be in the base game, my bet goes to Turks, Saudi Arabians or even Canadians.

 

[Jkchart]

Why do people think that Brazil can be militarist? Brazil has no warmongering history in the modern era apart from its small involvement in WWII. Brazil would only make a little bit of sense as a militarist if it were in the industrial era, because of the Paraguayan War and the suppression of revolts.

Also, I'm skeptical about the Koreans in the base game, I don't know if they would launch three far east cultures in the base game, given that China and Japan will certainly be there. If a third one is there, I'd say that Vietnam or Indonesia has more chances.

I think Ethiopians make more sense than South Africans. Not having Ethiopia as a late culture would be a little shameful, if not in the industrial era, then it must be in the contemporary era.

Finally, I think the Australians will not be in the base game, my bet goes to Turks, Saudi Arabians or even Canadians.

I mean there are three far eastern cultures in the Early Modern era (Ming, Edo Japan, Joseon)

 

[Guandao]

Where are the Ethiopians?
I'm expecting them at least over South Africa and I can see Canadians over Australians possibly.

I prefer Ethiopians to be an Industrial era faction. Not a big fan of 20th Century Ethiopia.

 

[j51]

I prefer Ethiopians to be an Industrial era faction. Not a big fan of 20th Century Ethiopia.

Yeah that would be really weird. The first mod I'd make would switch them with an Industrial culture (maybe Germany because of their more modern unit).