Culture Victories - Under 200 Turns - Deity (Any tips? Faves?)

[Pengwin7]

Update on my weekend play w/Khmer.
CV 228*.

Summary of the Good/Bad/Unlucky:
GOOD - Pyramids at turn60 was extra build charge all game. That's just 'map lucky' - must've not been any other AI with early desert - bc Pyramids is ALWAYS gone 30-40 range. Even though I wasn't planning on doing wonders - I thought snapping up Pyramids at the time when I got the gov/card for Wonder bonuses, two chops, done. The extra build charges was great for farm improvements. (though - for as many as I did - I should've done EVERY TILE to get that food pumping). Generally - very 'relaxing' map. The chokepoints allowed me to guard against incoming missionairies/apostles with my city btw Mountains. Kept my religion in 14/16 cities all game with only 4 missionaries made. (I did get 2 apostles from a Mahabodhi Temple through an Imotep usage. Those went straight to supplemental Culture, 1 per 4 followers, and to Gurdwara for extra food) Amenities - wasn't really a problem - despite skipping RIVER GODDESS (which still would've been better pick than my BuilderPantheon, yuck). It might've been nice to grow faster with an 'Ecstatic' cities... but I kept them mostly at 'Happy' just through luxury trading and strategically placed Ent.Districts, Colosseum, later Water Parks.

BAD - I need to use my faith currency faster, pump out settlers and builders faster. (Snowball cities, improved tiles). I held too much back. By end of last monumentality (turn 180), I had about 6k faith. Lost track of "last turn" to faith-buy settler. Didn't realize that until too late, but could've set up 2-3 more multi-NP sites in the tundra. My southern scout got surprised & killed by Barbs early game. I found out very LATE game that Auckland was a CS about 10 tiles from where scout got killed - and it was in middle of Canada's territory. Canada ended up being highest competitive AI - so much land. When I found Auckland, like turn 190 (!!!), it only required 4 envoys to suze. The production on coastal water tiles... my lord - that would've been nice. And... re:Faith, by Turn 210, I was swimming in faith... 18,000+ faith... and NOTHING to spend it on. So I bought Shah Jahan when he popped up around turn 220 and belted out Eiffel Tower and Sydney OH... just for kicks. Trade routes were a bit of a problem. I only got one settler off the "continent" and probably needed to work on that earlier. Rock Bands to Canada was just too far at end game. I sent one, took 10 turns to get there, played 3 successful on Campuses - then died. That probably helped a bit.

As for "POP" in cities. 16 total cities
3 hit 20+ pop (for that Khmer bonus) by turn 200, only one had it at "Flight" (turn 185 perhaps, can't recall).
8 hit 10+ pop around Flight.
5 in the Tundra... never got to 10. Not enough food, especially with me not having the proper (thanks OID) pantheon.

UNLUCKY: Only one cultural CS - Kumasi. 3-4 CS got eaten up by AI - that didn't help. Fez, Buenos Aires - gone very early.
*It... could've been worse though - for general Science. I had Geneva in game and kept that suz'd all game. But I definitely need more Science as getting to Flight faster - seems key if I want to pull off sub CV200. I think the Apostle Evangelize should've got to +1 science for 4pop following - that would've helped in a sprawling empire with lots of pop.

ALSO UNLUCKY: Strategic Resources. I had almost none. Horses in 3 spots - but EVERYBODY had horses. Everybody. Iron - I must've settled on top of it somewhere - but I actually don't think I had a single Iron tile. I pretty much couldn't make a dollar all game from resources. Best I did was to buy somebody's 40 horses early at 14per and sell it to somebody else for like 18per. (Babylon - man... that was one of his best attributes - I was absolutely loaded ALL GAME from trading resources for gold. I haven't read people mention that - but it's one of Babylon's best features - one can almost forego a lot of Comms with him just bc resources result in so.much.trading.gold)

**Asteriked... I don't really *count* this game - bc I had to play it three times from turn50. I missed religion twice. First time, gone by 60. I had to go back to 50, put both cities in full production mode, use all my banked faith/gold to buy good prod tiles to get City2s Holy Site and Shrine done faster. City1 had to commit to TWO Holy projects and chop one forest tile I didn't want to chop. That was on try#3, where I knew I'd have to have it by turn59. So... major cheat there - hence I can't really log this one. [In fairness - I have just come off 1+ month of being religion-spoiled by playing Babylon - who gets Holy/Shrine on build and zips to enough GPP to get Prophet. I had forgotten how tough it can be to get religion in a 8-civ Deity game - sometimes... everybody is going after it.]

STRATEGY TO WORK ON:
*It's gonna take a while to learn to "Move Moksha" better than I did. I'd lose track and it wasn't until turn150 or so where I realized (stupidly)... I could be building more than just Holy Sites with my faith. So I really need to think about moving him to a pop1 city: Holy Site, but to also try to time some moves to pop4 cities and go: Holy Site, Commercial Hub. Obv - try to also have enough Gold to go Market/TradeRoute immediately on the Comm. With a settler spam, some of them got to pop4 fairly quick by taking improved tiles from nearby cities. Given Moksha is useful towards the "Faith Buying Districts" from about turn50-on... I have to consider I really only have about 20moves (5move wait) btw 50-150 - assuming I'm paying attention enough to move, wait5, use, move. That wasn't something I was marking. But maybe moving him "On the 5s, 0s" would help my brain remember to do it.


Overall - very fun play style with Moksha.
I love, finally, having a 2nd (no wonder) option to consider if my early fave wonders (Oracle mainly) are snapped up turns 40-55, as they usually go.


2nd play on Khmer starting after work today!


[ps. What is general timeline wait on posts needing 'moderator approval'? I see this one every one of my posts:
This message is awaiting moderator approval, and is invisible to normal visitors.
Three months in to joining, 26 posts... I love the forums/site... but I'm curious on why this shows up at top of every posts I make.
We have something like this on the fantasy hockey site where I mod... but we usually flip it off after first 1-2 posts - if they seem like user is relevant/engaged to the site's topics]

 

[Oberinspektor Derrick]

I think the Apostle Evangelize should've got to +1 science for 4pop following - that would've helped in a sprawling empire with lots of pop.

Thats definitely the best pick.
You get so much free culture from playing Khmer that science is the only thing you naturally lack, and with that belief you can really start to skip on a lot of campuses because of the free science you get on top.
I generally pick (when I play with a religion) the yield that I'm naturally lacking, because generally the civic and tech tree depend on each other (inspirations only possible to unlock via a tech or the reverse), or because some tech or civic boost the yields of the other tree.
Getting the faith and gold pantheons are generally bad though, as those are yields that you can easily get otherwise with some planning (pillaging in war especially).

I missed religion twice. First time, gone by 60. I had to go back to 50, put both cities in full production mode, use all my banked faith/gold to buy good prod tiles to get City2s Holy Site and Shrine done faster. City1 had to commit to TWO Holy projects and chop one forest tile I didn't want to chop.

This is a sign that you're becoming a strong deity player.
The way that I approach this is that I look at great prophet point generation almost every turn, and decide my build order based on that.
If the game for instance has 5 total religion, and 2 of them have popped and I see 4 people massing propet points, that to me is an indicator that I must go for holy site prayers only and skip the shrine entirely until the prophet is secured.
Meanwhile if there is no competition, getting a shrine is safe before going prayers.
Yes it is a production sink, but that production is recouped almost immediately when you get work ethic up.
Also dont be shy of faith buying the prophet if you are about to lose the race for the last one, you want to do everything in your power to get it, because your game is essentially screwed if you miss it.
Playing it correctly should give you at least a 90% success rate of getting a religion in any game, barring extreme circumstances.

*It's gonna take a while to learn to "Move Moksha" better than I did. I'd lose track and it wasn't until turn150 or so where I realized (stupidly)... I could be building more than just Holy Sites with my faith. So I really need to think about moving him to a pop1 city: Holy Site, but to also try to time some moves to pop4 cities and go: Holy Site, Commercial Hub. Obv - try to also have enough Gold to go Market/TradeRoute immediately on the Comm. With a settler spam, some of them got to pop4 fairly quick by taking improved tiles from nearby cities. Given Moksha is useful towards the "Faith Buying Districts" from about turn50-on... I have to consider I really only have about 20moves (5move wait) btw 50-150 - assuming I'm paying attention enough to move, wait5, use, move. That wasn't something I was marking. But maybe moving him "On the 5s, 0s" would help my brain remember to do it.

Yeah getting used to it can take a while.
These days I just automatically check Moksha every second turn or so, its pretty much second nature at this point just to make sure he's doing something productive rather than sitting around, while some poor pop 1-2 city is without any useful district.
And with Moksha around, even if you eventually run out of holy site spots that are worth investing into, you can still go for a commercial hub or theatre square first just go have that city do something useful.
Heck I've settled cities that go straight for a faith bought TS and then I just buy the amphitheatre and museum outright, just to get access to an archaeologist (even better if I can faith buy him).

 

[Pengwin7]

Well, took about 2 weeks, but I got my sub200 CV with Khmer.

CV 195/196 (never sure how to mark this, it's on the screen update btw these two turns - so the 'screen shot' shows the latter. I tend to consider the former since the mark is probably being crossed during that turn).
The GOOD/LUCKY... BAD/UNLUCKY

Lucky - Of the 12 CS, had two VERY good cultural ones that hung around all game: Nan Madol (in my territory, early Suz) and Kumasi (mid-game Suz). This was huge for the 15% with Kilwa.
Zanzibar was in game, that was 2nd or 3rd CS that I got Suz on.
The map is always critical. This was probably my 50th-60th map loading and my 3rd full (150+ turns) play. One tile movement to get a massive Tundra-surround on city1 HolySite.
Early planning was critical - used Oberin's advice from my first Khmer game - went Aurora/WorkEthic - even got GovPlaza with 5/6 tiles around it having Tundra-HolySites. Amazing. The faith-gen from these: AMAZING.
Angkor Thom and Yaso had great regular grassland food to get to 20+, PreahV had Maus - had to stick Liang in there late to get the Fishing Food.
NJ had the early food from great wonder and Indrapura had sheep tiles to help food. (Fun Note: See Spoiler Photos, I didn't even get the UU-Domrey out in this game, 2 turns out in Indrapura... LOL)
The other AI... they weren't too cultural heavy - this was major luck. All Australia had was three GWW... and Korea had four GWW and a relic.
I got my fave wonder, Oracle - VERY VERY late, like turn 65 - which means all other AI clogged their hills early game. That was major gift.
Apadana... after Oracle - so the AI had clogged their first ring. Those envoys from wonder building in my capital came in fast & helpful after that.
I also got Hanging Gardens and Temple of Artemis late (65-75). So the other AI were not wonder-centric. Though I was surprised when I went into Australia how many he had.

Good - I went with what-I-know and actually took Magnus as first Gov, to chop-in my religion (tight again, mid-55s to get the 5th/last)... faster religion = work ethic = get things moving. (Snowball?)
Shifted Magnus into other tundra cities to get their Holy Sites (Work Ethic!) up and chugging. Second gov was sent to CS-Nan Madol to get Suz and barely get Classical Golden for monumentality.
I pushed hard and got 6/7 AI friendly very early. Really worked diplo favor and luxury trading well.
My expansion was mostly through the faith shown on my "base 6" cities in the Tundra. Bought those settlers even without having an Ancestral Hall - and ended up just picking the other option with Housing/Luxury bc it came on so late.
I set up 8 cities within range of Colosseum - which is pushing the food-capacity for Khmer a bit to get to the 10/20 marks... but I got to the key 10s/20s with everything near - so I played that right.
Moksha helped the other 10 cities - but I used GovTitles 3-6 on him... so he came online a bit later. [I had 16 total cities, thanks there to Oberin - I usually only do 9-10... but I'm trying to push more out if/where good locations.]
I played a really 'tight' end-game, sending 10-12 Rock Bands from turn 180-194 to JCurtin (this can be seen in the tourists I pulled from Australia: 48!).
And fortunately I pushed one settler way, way, WAY over to faraway Korea (29 tourists) and sent 4 Rock Bands (all did great!). Those took 7-8 turns to travel just 14 tiles... so I'm glad I at least had that city that close.
Lots of Science from Religion Evangelize choice... Gurdwara with other Evangelize. Had used those in previous games - they both feel like right choice w/Khmer (thanks Oberin).

Bad/Unlucky - The "full map" was brutal for access to other AI. I never got trade routes to 2-3 AI - one key. Ethiopia I got VERY late (turn 180+) and never got Genghis & Korea - just couldn't get a settler close enough due to mountains/water and both Genghis & Korea were inland settlers - bah.
Four CS/12 got eaten early - but none too critical (Chinguetti-Korea, Hunza-France, Samarkind-France, Nalanda-can't recall). I could've used a 2nd late-game Suz on a Science CS... would've helped.
_Unknown: Playing land for Food vs National Parks is tough call with Khmer. I think I ended up making only four NPs in the Tundra near mountains/trees. Prob could've done 2-3 more, but was holding faith for Rock Bands.

Based on memory:
*Took score lead around turn 110
*Took culture domestic tourist lead around turn 130
*Believe my end-of-game numbers were about 240s/850c

Best feeling... no save scums... a start-to-finish GO-game!!!... which feels great.


Time to line up a next CIV to try for culture... thinking to consider Pericles (heavy settle, heavy Acropolis), Rome (mass-settle for the free monuments), or another faith-heavy CIV (but I feel like I've now done them all).

Pics in spoiler.

Spoiler :

 

[Oberinspektor Derrick]

I actually quite like Kublai Khan (Mongolian) for CV, especially on Pangea.
As long as you scout the map early enough, you can set up trade routes almost instantly towards any civilization out there (which gives you even more reach for cities further away than that) and let the early great works start racking up tourists harder and sooner than usual.
Plus the Mongolian ability lends itself greatly to dominate your first neighbour pretty hard, with +6 combat strength for pretty much no investment other than a trader.
It's not the best CV civ, but its rather different.

 

[Pengwin7]

Big win w/Pericles last night.
CV 185/186

Good/lucky & Bad/unlucky

GOOD/LUCKY - Most of it. Had Piopiotahi for my 2nd city - which was great early culture to get to PolPhis and get era score for ocean-settle and wonder-settle. Absolutely gift-of-a-game for CityStates (Kandy! Yerevan! Vatican City! AntanaN! Bologna!). I believe this was the BEST set of 12 I've ever gotten in my standard-sized map games. Kandy - again - and early. I actually was stumbling upon a wonder with 2 relics maxed - had to pause, sell one, just to clear a spot. (Bought that relic back later in game). I named my religion Raylix just to be quirky with how this game was going to go - went with Relic 3x... then worked hard to fill Pingala-capital w/St.Basil's and the DeMedici GreatMerchant bank. Only 1/12 CS got eaten up - which was Cardiff (to Tomyris). The other 11/12 were beauties. Would've liked a 2nd science, but having no military CS when you are playing for a culture game, amazing. By turn 170, 10/11 were suz'd (Canada was dominating Mohenjo-Daro, the 2nd Cultural... I could've got that it would've been a run) - and with Pericles 5% per Suz - amazing. I was at around 1000c at that point, lost three suz in the final 6-7 turns. No biggies. There were three Diplo-want AIs: Canada, Sweden, Georgia. I had no shortage of incoming cash from those trades. Bleeding their gold dry every time I needed to. Trade routes were pretty good. I got them out to 6/7 civs just in my own 'zone'. Had to move one settler 20+ turns to an island to get to Georgia (Delphi - see photos) - but that worked well bc it was my jump-off spot for Rock Bands to Canada (the culture leader at the time). All 3 of my rock bands to Canada had great promotions and were very successful. Had more trouble to the Culture2 Norway, prob sent 7-8 Rock Bands there, needing to move 4+ turns to get past their lake/mountains and into their main area. Spawn was great - if you are going to have Netherlands in game, have 'em close - quick trade route: Friends. Two settles and they were pinched off to the West. Sweden was very distant to East - we actually met at same time with my 2 settlers (Corinth + Rhodes) to their one (Karlstad). I chopped in quick food, golden age, and Karlstad flipped to me in 20 turns. Very nice & easy. Got all my fave key wonders, except Oracle. It was fine - this game was more about spreading out those Acropolis in all 15 cities. Another gift: Imhotep was first GE up... saved faith for him: Colosseum/Petra/Colossus... boom, boom, boom (after Maus obv). Isidore was 2nd up, bought him and used 2/3 charges to finish Kilwa fast - which is great for Suz bonus of Pericles. Had 7-8 elite (full dark green) National Parks around turn 155-160. This game exploded LATE w/Acropolis-push (envoy for each). Typing this part out as my own 'numerical benchmarking': I only took score lead at 110 (a bit later than I'd like to see) and culture lead (over Canada) at turn 135 (also late for what usually works) - but w/Pericles Suz-bonuses towards culture... it took off from there.

BAD/UNLUCKY - not much. It was a nice game. As things "breaking right" along the way go - it was amazing. I always like to get Oracle for my capital & discount on GreatPeople - but I just lived without it this game. Couldn't get Apadana (for more capital relics) and didn't have a Mont St.Michel spot in range of capital (for Relics). Usually, if I'm going after Relic tourism, I'm hoping to have one or both of those in my capital.

(@Oberin - this was first game where I went Archeological-heavy. Thank you!!!!!. I only did Art in Athens - bc always enough Religious Art available to theme that... but that's all there was - so going Arch Museum was great. This broke incredibly well for me too... with 7 Archs, I had 5 themed - that's incredible. I expected to era-theme maybe 2 or 3 of the 7 I had before last monumentality-expired. Great way to spend faith when there wasn't enough art available and I would've bled my own gold for end-game to use it. I did not use Moksha at all this game... desert pantheon was GONE when I got there - should've checked who took it bc I didn't see a desert-heavy AI... or I would've played it out that way w/Moksha.)


So - just like that, I'm already done with Pericles.
Scratch another one off.


As I'm not really a military-hunt/kill style player yet, I'll pass on Kublai Khan... for now.
But did put him on a sticky note with Byzantium for when I'm ready to brush up there.

Debating btw Nzinga(Kongo w/Relic-run), Ludwig(w/the placeWonder for +2c)... maybe Teddy - my pre-placement NP game is getting better - and that seems key for Teddy.
I also like 'early culture' - so... maybe Ambiorix... maybe...
Ambiorix actually feels like the pathway to considering upping my military-skills...
[*I use the Zigzagzigal guide's as my 'prepper'... and Gaul only lists with a Victory Skew score for Culture of 7/10... and I'm not sure I'm a good enough player yet to do sub200 w/Gaul...]


As usual - some photos in spoiler area.

Spoiler :

 

[Pengwin7]

Worked the last 10 days on Teddy Bull Moose.
Close, but no cigar on sub200.

1st full-go-through netted me a win at turn 213. I used tundra pantheon to get great work ethic... but the map was brutal and got pinned in from two sides and limited to 9 cities. Granada was in this game. I usually feel like the Militaristic CS do NOTHING to help in game... but Granada's Alcazar with Teddy - oh man, amazing.
2nd full-game, I improved to turn 211. But I had Nzinga in the game and she absolutely ran away with her own continent after stealing 2-3 cities. Could not rally despite a stocked Relic capital (incl. buying hers and another early)
3rd, just finished yesterday. Turn 202. So.damn.close. Still do not understand how an 11-city Mayan empire with no great works from turn140-on (I bought them all)... kept me staved off.
This was my best game for CityState (all 12 stayed in game, 7-8 of the 12... incl suz'd two Culture, two Ind, Venice, Anshan! w/18 books).
Also had great game for trade routes, had 6/7 by turn 140... and Georgia came online around t160 simply from extension of another (Ambiorix) trade route completing.
Great luck in those two things.

*Biggest issue yesterday was rock bands. She was my neighbor, but I didn't unlock Rock Bands until turn 193, pushed them out from three cities, multiple turns 3/3/3/1/1/1... but the six cities she had within 10 tiles... had ONE workable RockBand location - a single University. Like... c'mon. The next closest venue was 6-TURNS (12-15 hills/mtn tiles) away. So it was t199 before I could actually have ONE band play their 2nd concert. I was frustrated. Not enough culture to get me to key spots. I did great with faith-gen (bought 12 high-end NPs in my 12 cities)... science-gen (hit Flight at t180, Computers at t190, I believe). Looking back, if I had picked the Evangelize belief in Culture per 4 followers (I did science)... I might have pulled it off. I got so used to 'needing science' from previous Leaders - that I lost track that Teddy gets so much science from his tiles alone. Bah. (Zero campuses this game, basically full Holy(1)/Comm(4)/TS(7) sort of game... moving Moksha - AMAZING strat from Oberin, ty.). First game I've EVER played where I didn't use Magnus. Basically... the trees... the trees have so much value with Teddy... better to keep them, I'd think - especially when the land was all light green/dark green all around - on spawn.

[BTW - Major BEEF. Do districts NEED a specialty district to be 'playable'?!?. All three of the first three Rock Bands I created offered garbage choices: SurfBand(Harbors), Reggae(WaterPark), ArenaRock (EntComplex). She had NOTHING on the water, but did have a very close Ent.District. But... NO ARENA. I assume - learning - that a district WITHOUT specialty... can NOT be played. I mean, it wouldn't have mattered - but there was an Entertainment Complex very close... and so I chose that one, which ends turn. But I don't love the description of "on Entertainment Complex district tiles" if they can't play on an "Entertainment Complex" alone. Bah. Whatever. Wouldn't have made difference since the only thing playable was the single University.]


So... I'm done with Teddy. Tried, almost.
Loved it, very fun, but not putting in another 6-10 hours to try and improve on 3 turns.
If I would have replayed, I probably would've tried to get 2-3 more cities with NPs... and I would have evangelized for the Culture, and not the Science. Anshan w/Books - didn't know that'd help so much.
That would've got me to Rock Bands quicker - I had no idea they were going to need SO many turns to get deep into Mayan land.

Will post some photos later.



Think I'm going to try Theodora (Byz) next...




Oh... took down some numbers last night - I've always been curious to track the 'rate' at which I can rally on tourists vs highest AI.
This game, I was tracking down the Mayan (Lady Six Sky), standard speed, 8 player map (7-Seas).

Turn - MyTourists/HerTourists

188 - 73/164 (had flight & computers at this point... but not Rock Bands)
189 - 79/165
190 - 84/165
191 - 90/166
192 - 95/166
193 - 101/167 (Rock Bands first unlocked, purchased here: 3 at a time from nearby cities. I had about 4000 faith, and maybe 500per turn)
194 - 106/168
195 - 112/169 (First rock concert played in Mayan land - successfully @ Univ)
196 - 119/168 (2nd rock band played same 1st site: Univ)
197 - 125/169 (3rd rock band played same 1st site: Univ)
198 - 132/170. *Of note - I actually was like "Welp, no point spending on Rock Bands - being only ONE VENUE in 6-turn-travel"... so I bought Gustav Eiffel and 3-charged out Broadway in next 3-turns in my 180c capital.
199 - 140/170
200 - 149/169 (First rock band made it to next venue, another 5 turns away!!!). Jotting numbers, was at 316s/900c at this point. I believe I unlocked the 200% music here - had 5/6 in Film Studios.
201 - 160/167. Finished Broadway, shifted a book and two musics into Pingala capital Broadway.
202v - 169/166.
...
203 - 178/166 (posted this one bc it was even before a rock concert - bit of an explosion with the 25% from Environmentalism Civic completing. Needed to get here sooner).

 

[Oberinspektor Derrick]

Bull Moose Teddy is one that I sort of like playing, but he is really tricky to play for a fast win, as you found out.
You really want to boost appeal, but that really starves your production (cant chop, and getting mines/lumber mills ruins nearby appeal).
So you sort of need Moksha just for the "free production" that faith buying saves you.
But the biggest problem I found with him is his massive reliance on good locations, since you will not only be production starved, but also food starved.
You can of course try to create a cluster of farms or similar, but the best locations usually involve rivers, which often means flood plains, which you definitely dont want to settle.

Then comes to issue of getting good appeal.
There are no good ways for him to build appeal outside of holy sites, theatre squares and wonders in key locations, which often makes for very wonky gameplay.
Sure you can get preserves as well, but I never quite liked how you need to dedicate a district slot for it, and even when you can get good locations for them, the results arent necessarily that impressive - especially since they eat away at available natural park spots in the late game.
That leaves city parks from Liang.
Those are actually great to build for Bull Moose, but the problem is that its a 4p governor investment, meaning you have to completely skip out on Moksha for the first part of the game (lol, no).
Then when you do get her, you only get limited value out of her before you're about to enter the late game.
Worse still, she takes 5 turns to move, and thats a pretty hefty price to pay time-wise for just boosting a few tiles worth of appeal.


Theodora is utterly broken on the other hand, imo.
If you get an adjacency pantheon you frontload such stupid amounts of culture, that you'll fly right through the civics tree without making an effort.
And she is extremely flexible in that you can settle other spots as well, as long as you got farm spots available around the holy sites (if you even wanna build more HS at that stage).
The part that really makes her broken though is having access to Taxis as the civ ability, which is very strong both for getting a religion, but especially for early rushing the AI (which I understand that you don't do, but still).
Work ethic and crusade + taxis just shoves so many high combat strength units down the enemy's throat that they'll succumb pretty much guaranteed, leaving you with a ton of free real estate and a super easy snowball after that.
Personally I rate her as much stronger than Basil, and have no idea why people rate Basil as the strongest Byzantium leader (though he is very strong as well for obvious reasons).
These days I dont play her anymore, just because of how utterly easy mode she is when you utilize her entire toolkit (which includes rushing the AI).

Edit: Dont bother with the "faith from farms around hippodromes", thats just a gimmick like Khmers faith aqueducts.
Do note that the farms around holy sites actually boost the holy site adjacency, just like a pantheon would, it does not boost the farm itself.
This makes it a very strong ability, since you're essentially getting free faith, production and culture on your holy sites that way, and makes you less reliant on an adjacency pantheon (which you should still always try to get, because it frontloads those yields rather than forcing you to waste builder charges).

 

[Pengwin7]

Excellent info on playing on Theodora.

I did about 20 starts and about 5 play-throughs to Classical Era (t50+) - but I've yet to (all of):
i) Secure a Golden Age,
ii) Secure a Religion Relatively Early
iii) Get Decent Production pre-Religion (Work Ethic will probably take care of production once the religion is up... but t60-ish religions... really feels too late to get going.)
I'm excited to really see her results with multiple Holy Sites... but I just haven't gotten them up fast yet.


Where do the Hippodromes come in?
Are they an 'every city' sort of thing? District #2, #3, #4? (Not before Holy Site, I assume, probably not before CommHubs... maybe before Theatre Squares - as that would be nice pre-adjacency for those - and the amenities... but getting a bunch of cities to pop10 for a 4th district: TS - seems tough. Though, maybe the right layout of farm-triangles and Holy Sites will set the food up for pop10 cities? IDK.)

[I love the big pre-planning CIVs.
My fave part with Teddy was pre-planning those National Parks and just popping them off as soon as Conservation was complete.]


below - Pics I forgot to attach from t202/203 victory with Teddy (including me pointing at the Mayan Entertainment Complex that was not playable... bc "no arena", I assume. 6 cities and ONE playable rock band location... unbelievable. There is a University above the '76' city strength in one city. That was it in the near 6 cities. Next closest location was the Entertainment Complex up by my Rock Band at top of screen, had to go in/out of ocean just to get to it!).

Spoiler :

 

[Oberinspektor Derrick]

Getting a religion with Theodora really shouldnt be a problem due to taxis and the free GPP generation that she gets on the holy site.
If it is, you were either extremely unlucky, or you need to refine your opener and/or pay more attention to the prophet race, as Theodora has a very easy time at securing a religion, compared to the average civ.

Hippodromes imo just come in as if they were a regular entertainment complex.
Their main gimmick is that they give a free heavy cavalry unit when completed, which is imo not worth fretting over.
A lot of people (who imo play Basil incorrectly, but it also applies to Theodora) try to incorporate this gimmick into their overall strategy which is something that sets the player back.
They do this by trying to "time" the district's completion right when you got Knights unlocked, in order to print free ones.
Its a cute ability, but it slows down the snowball for reasons I can't bother to explain here (mostly because you dont play aggressive anyway ), but the fact that you can faith buy units with the GMC anyway (and swim in faith from pillaging the AI) without paying for a district slot that sits idle is the main one.

For peaceful purposes I would mainly get the hippodrome for era score (if you need it close to an era change), or later in the game when you have your trifecta of HS, CH and TS districts set up already.
One can still be built if you want to go for Colosseum though, which is a bit more worthwhile than usual since you only spend half the production for a hippodrome compared to an EC anyway.

Hence why I would just skip on hippodromes until the late game, since you dont wanna sacrifice HS/CH/TS districts if you can avoid it, as those feed directly into your snowball, whereas the hippodrome doesnt (apart from if it nudges your cities into a higher happiness bracket, but that effect is negligible early on, and can be attained through other means anyway).
It's a decent 4th district pick though, but even then you might want to build other districts since the bonuses from the hippodrome buildings are regional anyway.


Fun fact with Theodora:
If you ever happen to get Desert Folklore or Dance of the aurora with her, and there is a volcano nearby in that particular landscape type, you can wait until the first eruption to build farms on the volcanic soil that is created next to your HS.
Usually you cant build farms in desert or tundra, but with volcanic soil you can, and the holy sites can get pretty ludicrous pretty early if you're lucky.
The same also works for desert floodplains, that can have farms on them on top of the desert folklore-bonus.

 

[Pengwin7]

Yeah - just 'getting' the religion hasn't been an issue.
But I'd prefer to get it EARLY. PP too.

In my first post of this thread, I mentioned how I love seeing Paititi - and that has spurred my first couple sub200 runs.
It's not the wonder itself so much as the 'culture' is so critical to racing to Political Philosophy - and then the prophet great points come even faster w/card slotted in.
Then racing to the 100% Holy Site policy. All very key.

My game isn't 'good enough' yet... so for now, the formula for me that is working is:
*Big early Culture somehow (usually requires a wonder or lucky relic)
*Culture tree fast to PP
*Prophet helped by policy card
*Religion secured - Work Ethic... then off-we-go...
*Ideally... also "Chops" do a lot more when you are farther down Civic/Tech tree - so blazing that early Culture tree is helpful.

A few YouTubers suggest a 'monument' to get culture going when there is none...
But I'm starting to find "If I need a monument... I'm screwed for sub200"...
(This being part of the reason I list all of these game plays - so I can go back and read them and find the pattern. Like... Teddy... the early culture is baked into the tile appeal.)

The other route that can work is getting an adjacency Pantheon fast - which requires some sort of Faith.
Religious CS first meet...
Or Relic...
Or work a faith tile...
And that happens sometimes too.

So usually... for me... to go sub200 culture win, I need that HUGE early culture or HUGE early faith... or ideally, both.

And... most of the people I see running sub200 culture wins (on YouTube) with 'standard settings' (no special cheese) - have either Relics, Religious CS first meets, Culture CS first meets, or amazing nearby wonder.
(I've also seen the occasional run with an AI city-flip via loyalty or war or the magical 'settler steal'... but those feel even rarer than the list above).

Right now, this is the only way I can chase down the culture leaders on Deity for sub200t CV...
(When my overall gameplay gets better... I'll probably be able to play a low-culture low-faith map... but I'm far from there, right now.)

 

[Pengwin7]

Spent my lunch hour starting a game.
Woof. (Shakes head)

Has it been discussed on these forums whether... sometimes... (a lot)... AI just... steals your pantheon.
Or... might some AIs have 'pre-set pantheon orders' - regardless of their actual land???

I set up... what I thought... was beautiful Desert Folklore pantheon game.
Q: Was it there for me on my t37?
A: No. It was not.

This is the kind of game I see a lot. Straight in the garbage can.
I played this one out a bit.

(See photos for start location)
t2 Settle
7-8 turn Scout (not much prod, good food)
6-7 turn Scout
15+ turn Settler
Holy Site in City1
Holy Site in City2
------
I had ZERO faith, at Faith in Cap policy card comes available t12, 25 turn wait, Pantheon only on t37.
Is there any way around this? I don't see any way to make early-game faith. Maybe there's magic I don't know about.

Meanwhile... Russia.
Russia is in game in the grass.
At my quit, t63, they've got 5 cities, 4 holy sites.
Where are their Holy Sites, you ask?
1. Grassland Hills
2. Grassland Hills
3. Grassland
4. Plains

So what did they pick for a pantheon?
(I'm sure you know... ridiculous. I found ONE or TWO desert tiles in their entire empire).

I did manage to get Golden Age by sending the scouts East-West.
Stole a settler from Aztec, made peace before end of Ancient Age.
But zero money, little faith, my only culture is from the Holy Sites.

Just no way there's a path to sub200 culture victory here.
These games feel "often" for me.
Yuck.

Pictures in spoiler:

Russia @ t63
Russia's Religion/Pantheon
Me @ t63 (showing crappy Holy Site adjacency... chose "River Goddess" after Desert Folklore stolen by Peter.)
(photo error)
Thumbs Down to no Desert Folklore
Score @ 48 (I check to see who is leader - haven't met America, seen name pass in info screens)
Me @ t49, start of Classical Era - still not with a holy site done...

Spoiler :

I would normally probably pass on this game due to lack of obvious culture.
There was no path to early faith, so the pantheon was delayed.
Lack of production meant holy site was going to be delayed.

Bah - brutal.
Was there a path to play this 'significantly' better?!?

 

[Pengwin7]

CV 193 w/Theodora.

After some internet researching, stumbled on a start by a YouTuber who has some good tips (Comrade Kaine).
In the video, Kaine pivots to a science victory.

I used the map seed to start it up myself and went fully for culture.
But my game was different even from my t1/t2 settle-choice.

This is a 'gift' start... but you still have to know how to play it right - especially being 'continents' w/Large (10-civ) map.

But... I got it done in one shot.

YouTube video for anybody that wants to try:

The Map/Game Seed can be seen in video at 8:25 (I only watched first 9min).
Also listed in video text:

civ: Byzantine / Theodora
speed: standard
map: continents and islands
map size: large
civ6 game modes: none
map seed: -408240892
game seed: -408240893

 

[Oberinspektor Derrick]

Has it been discussed on these forums whether... sometimes... (a lot)... AI just... steals your pantheon.
Or... might some AIs have 'pre-set pantheon orders' - regardless of their actual land???

So what did they pick for a pantheon?
(I'm sure you know... ridiculous. I found ONE or TWO desert tiles in their entire empire).

Just no way there's a path to sub200 culture victory here.
These games feel "often" for me.
Yuck.

I don't think the AI has their pantheon choice "pre set", but I have noticed that the AI prioritizes adjacency pantheons highly if they have the tiles available to them, and also have an affinity for peaceful play (which used to be an AI variable for a civ in earlier civ games, and probably still is).
The AI is very simple in this regard, and seems to just scan the tiles that it owns in order to judge whether or not there is a suitable adjacency pantheon for that terrain type.
And yes, I have witnessed that Peter can pick Desert Folklore as well, because while he does spawn near tundra, there is a good chance that he can still spawn close to/on desert as well, and in this case it seems to be just RNG deciding whether or not the AI will take desert folklore over dance of the aurora.
Heck, something that really made me rage one game was when I got Brazil or Khmer (cant remember which) and was on track to get a fast pantheon through an early dyes tile (+1 faith), and right before getting it, Mvemba of Kongo (who also had access to dyes), picked Sacred Path. KONGO, the one leader/civ combo that cant even build a holy site to begin with!

Its unfortunately just a consequence of playing on Deity, that your options of viable starting openers gets restricted.
Religion (with adjacency pantheons and work ethic) is one of those highly viable routes, but it does make you very reliant on early faith.
It's for this reason I rate nearly any start with "free" faith as a top tier start, because how incredibly important early faith is in order to secure the best pantheons - Dyes, tobacco and faith wonders especially (pearls kinda suck still. though, because of the bad total yields).

If you do want to branch out into other viable openers, I highly suggest you look into aggressive military rush play against the AI, as early war is incredibly profitable for setting up a snowball (with which you can pivot into peacefully play later), and does not require a good pantheon to pull off.

A tip that doesnt get mentioned in most online guides for deity play though, and which I use heavily myself for securing pantheons:
Always look for opportunities to pillage a vulnerable tile!
One of the absolutely easiest ways to secure a pantheon on deity (outside of lucky faith spawns), is by pillaging tiles that yield faith.
Such tiles are quarries, pastures, plantations and noticeably many city state special improvements (nazca lines, monasteries, mahavihara, alcazar etc.).
The best part about this is, a successful pillage immediately gives enough faith to secure a pantheon, meaning you can get a pantheon ridiculously fast if you look for the opportunity.

This is why I often try to find the nearest city states, and especially look for those that have such special improvements (not all of them yield faith though, like cahokia mounds) to try to pillage those, or keep an eye out on whether they have stone/cattle/sheep within their borders.
Usually the city state will build a builder almost right away to try to improve tiles around the city, so there is a high chance that you can get such an opportunity if you park a warrior nearby (also why I dislike scouts more and more these days, as they can be killed before they manage to pillage, as opposed to a warrior).
You can even do this against an AI, even though it is a lot more risky.
Yesterday Mapuche invaded my neighbour Scotland (rare, but happens), and as they grinded each other down I saw that his border city had a quarry.
Since my warrior (I rolled random Khmer) was healthy and they were busy fighting, I just ran in, pillaged, and bam - secured sacred path, then sued for peace later.
Usually city states are by far the easiest and safest targets though, so its better to just develop a habit of looking for those in the early game.

Its small things like these that can increase your success rate by a lot, to the point where you don't need to restart that much anymore.

 

[Pengwin7]

Oh wow - great tip.
I will probably try the pillage more.
I've done it a time or two - but 'declaring war' - has often resulting in another AI giving me a 'denounce'... which is 30 turns, I believe.
Some games where I've had a GREAT start - if I declare war - I may get denounced by 1-3 other AI and then if they 'go red' - I can't buy their cheap diplo favor.
For me, stocking that early diplo favor at 20:1 and then selling later at 1:9 (or so) is huge income. The diplo favor is only available about turns 40-60(or 70 latest) on standard.
A denounce in this range is death to any diplo favor.

For city states though... yeah, may try that. I actually keep an eye out for it, but I rarely find they have anything available in first 30 turns (pre-pantheon).

The CV yesterday on the 'gift' map - I got desert folklore there at t35 or so... not much different from the 'Peter' game - just that pantheon was there.


Also (d'oh moment for me), I now realize that some portion of 'early war' - that you previously mentioned - is for the pillage rewards on tiles against opponent.
I was only, previously, thinking about the upside/downside of the pure chance to 'take a city' - which - on its own - just doesn't show the upside to me.
But the pillaging - yeah, if there's a good district there or good developed tiles... ah, for sure. For.sure.


Love, love, love the pillage tip.
And I can't tell you how helpful/wonderful it is to get your replies.
Seems like pretty much 95% of community has shifted over to the Civ7 forums - so it's great to have experienced advice here!!!! Thanks again!


(For me, I'm onto either Nzinga or... Ludwig. I've played Ludwig a lot - which I basically roll/re-roll for the floodplain/stone start so you can start GreatBath/Etem/Stonehenge place-and-leave strategy to get the free +2 culture)