Culture victory changes - thoughts?

chazzycat

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Oct 13, 2010
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Personally I'm liking it so far. Culture is MUCH slower for sure, more in line with the other victories. The change to how dig sites work just means, If the dig sites are far from the museum/university you research at, you can easily lose them all. And the explorers are VERY expensive, like quite a lot. I think my 3rd one cost like 5k gold on epic speed. Enough to actually matter. I had to go to all the natural wonders on the map, AND research future civics multiple times, to get to 15. I suspect that econ will be faster most of the time now. Good job Firaxis IMO
 
Fair enough, but to me it was a major step in the right direction. At least it's balanced a lot better vs. the other win conditions to the point where it's not just the default win in every game. That is nice.
 
It's a good bandaid fix until they figure out what in the world they want culture victory to be in this game. It really feels like it was the last victory path worked on and they just slapped some objectives vaguely related to culture together in order to meet the release deadline. You cannot convince me that the vision for religion in Civ 7 was to be a relic generator that only matters for culture and in only one era. It's just so stitched together.
 
As bandaid as it gets - it had zero impact on the optimal strategy, just made the path take longer to complete. Which I guess was the whole point, so mission accomplished.

If you stockpile 3k gold and boost your gold and culture output by the end of Exploration, then you still get a great head start for cultural victory. If anything, these changes may penalize AI more than the player, especially on lower difficulties.
 
If you stockpile 3k gold and boost your gold and culture output by the end of Exploration, then you still get a great head start for cultural victory. If anything, these changes may penalize AI more than the player, especially on lower difficulties.
nope not really. good luck with this plan. I can tell you haven't played it yet
 
nope not really. good luck with this plan. I can tell you haven't played it yet
Literally finished the game last night doing exactly that.

I do note though that you are playing on Epic speed. I never play that way, so I’ll concede your mileage may vary due to speed and cost scaling.
 
well then your experience was the complete opposite of mine. I won a lot of culture victories on the old patch and this one was vastly slower than them all. The AI was much, much more competitive with me on sovereign and having way less culture than me. They simply beat me to most of the artifacts following the same strategy I had been using pre patch. You can't just easily buy ~8 explorers and cover the whole map, it's way too cost prohibitive.

I don't think there is any chance that this patch is penalizing the AI more based on the vast difference I saw in that one game. Maybe time will tell, though.

I was playing on standard map instead of small, and epic speed. Maybe those are factors as well
 
Literally finished the game last night doing exactly that.

I do note though that you are playing on Epic speed. I never play that way, so I’ll concede your mileage may vary due to speed and cost scaling.
I can second that. I took that approach in my first game post patch - and it was still faster than an economic victory (which was my backup as Britain).

The additional ways to gain artefacts (natural wonders, research with hegemony) if anything make it more reliable than before, it was - I would guesstimate - 10 to 20 turns slower than it could otherwise have been pre-patch.

What I will say is that it was more of a leisurely pace than a sprint. Rather than a few turns of intense activity when new artefacts became available, the rate of acquisition was more linear. Definitely an improvement, but modern age is still the weakpoint in Civ7.

I don't like saying this as the devs were actively trying to make the endgame engaging, but I think this is the Civ game where I feel least incentivised to finish a game. It's just a foregone conclusion on any difficulty. The only things making me play the modern era are achievements and leader progression, and that just feels like a chore...
 
As bandaid as it gets - it had zero impact on the optimal strategy, just made the path take longer to complete. Which I guess was the whole point, so mission accomplished.

If you stockpile 3k gold and boost your gold and culture output by the end of Exploration, then you still get a great head start for cultural victory. If anything, these changes may penalize AI more than the player, especially on lower difficulties.
I found them useful, as I no longer had to insta-buy 8 explorers and split them between two parallel continents, I mean sure you still have to rush but now that we can excavate Natural Wonders it defeniately helps.
 
You cannot convince me that the vision for religion in Civ 7 was to be a relic generator that only matters for culture and in only one era. It's just so stitched together.
Imo a very simple way to make religion matter would be to alter the cultural golden age to allow you to retain a % or set number of your relics as artefacts in the next age
 
I can’t tell, can multiple civs still harvest a single site? I moved an explorer to an AI site and saw the message “already excavating”. However, now that I think about it, maybe a text bug since I didn’t have full movement. I saw an AI explorer come sit on my site, which got me wondering.
 
I can’t tell, can multiple civs still harvest a single site? I moved an explorer to an AI site and saw the message “already excavating”. However, now that I think about it, maybe a text bug since I didn’t have full movement. I saw an AI explorer come sit on my site, which got me wondering.
Pretty sure it's just first come, first serve. If you give an explorer an order to go to a tile, and another civ beats you to it and starts digging, your explorer will stop moving and ask for new orders because that tile is not a valid option anymore.
 
I can’t tell, can multiple civs still harvest a single site? I moved an explorer to an AI site and saw the message “already excavating”. However, now that I think about it, maybe a text bug since I didn’t have full movement. I saw an AI explorer come sit on my site, which got me wondering.
I encountered this too. I think once an excavation starts, you can’t work on the same site. Not sure if this was mentioned in the patch notes but it felt like new information to me. This change drastically lowers the amount of artifacts you can realistically collect.
 
Imo a very simple way to make religion matter would be to alter the cultural golden age to allow you to retain a % or set number of your relics as artefacts in the next age
I think religion matters already. I would say it's in a pretty ok place in that sense, you can nearly ignore it if you want, but if not you can go moderately into it or heavily and it would bring different results. If you go heavily into it with proper decisions you can get some big bonus in next age thanks to your belief being kept and also potentially get a nice boost for having had many relics previously (as you can go beyond the 12). I don't quite mind that religion is played mostly just in exploration age as it is. I think it's cool that you don't have to go for culture victory even if you invested into religion in exploration. You basically don't have to pick your victory condition before modern, I think that's great. At this time I am wondering what happens if modern finishes and nobody finished a victory condition actually, does the player with most legacy points win?
 
I can second that. I took that approach in my first game post patch - and it was still faster than an economic victory (which was my backup as Britain).

The additional ways to gain artefacts (natural wonders, research with hegemony) if anything make it more reliable than before, it was - I would guesstimate - 10 to 20 turns slower than it could otherwise have been pre-patch.

What I will say is that it was more of a leisurely pace than a sprint. Rather than a few turns of intense activity when new artefacts became available, the rate of acquisition was more linear. Definitely an improvement, but modern age is still the weakpoint in Civ7.

I don't like saying this as the devs were actively trying to make the endgame engaging, but I think this is the Civ game where I feel least incentivised to finish a game. It's just a foregone conclusion on any difficulty. The only things making me play the modern era are achievements and leader progression, and that just feels like a chore...
Definitely agree that the modern era is by far the weakest point in the game. In my Mexico deity playthrough on the new patch I got the required 15 relics around turn 60 (regular speed) and I'm now twiddling my thumbs until the world's fair finishes.

The pace of explorers felt better than the previous patch but in my opinion the gold stockpiling method is at least as strong as it was before, since you can pop out enough explorers faster than the AI can build spam theirs out given the much higher cost. The higher number of artifacts available also makes it even easier, and the structure of the victory still strongly incentivizes you bum rush straight to the required civics, and then nothing else really matters, although I suppose science and economic victories aren't much better in that regard.

Culture victories feel so cheap that I doubt I'll ever pursue another culture victory in the modern era after this, it's just too silly.
 
Thanks for the answers. I’m actually having so much fun this first game after the patch. I (foolishly?) used my gold to buy cities, and lost 2 turns forgetting to slot my first explorer into production. Those two turns cost me two artifacts, which may prove the difference bwtween a culture victory being viable or not. I got a few lucky breaks, and an event to “steal” an artifact but start a war. Now I’m racing Benny for an Econ victory against his culture/science victories. FYI, I’m playing on my mod (effectively Deity++, maybe I should call it that…) and the game feels very competitive. Benny has 2200 science and 4500 culture at turn 51, so beating him to future civics is out of the question. Also lost any hope at the hegemony bonus.
 
Definitely agree that the modern era is by far the weakest point in the game. In my Mexico deity playthrough on the new patch I got the required 15 relics around turn 60 (regular speed) and I'm now twiddling my thumbs until the world's fair finishes.

The pace of explorers felt better than the previous patch but in my opinion the gold stockpiling method is at least as strong as it was before, since you can pop out enough explorers faster than the AI can build spam theirs out given the much higher cost. The higher number of artifacts available also makes it even easier, and the structure of the victory still strongly incentivizes you bum rush straight to the required civics, and then nothing else really matters, although I suppose science and economic victories aren't much better in that regard.

Culture victories feel so cheap that I doubt I'll ever pursue another culture victory in the modern era after this, it's just too silly.
I think Civics (and a few Techs/Wonders) unlocking Explorers may have to be the way to go.
 
The culture path definitely feels more diverse, even a little dynamic now, but I think it now exposes how blisteringly fast the Modern age is. Before the culture victory change, I'd usually get that or economic first; now that it's slowed down, I find that science and economic are the fastest and most natural, easily achieved before half of the age has gone by. Economic stands out especially badly now: the conditions for winning it, essentially, are established in the earlier two ages with the resources you acquire; in Modern borders have become more solidified and there are fewer empty spots on the map to settle, meaning an economic victory more or less amounts to getting rail stations and factories, then sitting on what you have. It's not a very active path to victory at all, which is a bit disappointing considering how interesting the Monopolies and Corporations mode was in Civ VI, and how it was geared towards not just controlling an amount of a resource, but having a monopoly of it. That's what the economic victory should be about, no?

I actually think cultural victory is in a good spot now—just the rest of the Modern age has to be brought into a more coherent order and expanded. There could and should be at least two more tiers of techs and civics, giving the whole age more room to breathe. The much-maligned slow pace of the ideology/domination victory path, I think, should be the norm rather than the exception.
 
I find the Natural Wonder artifact and associated text to be quite nice. It explains the digging as Paleontology but also sample collection and the like. I think this is a nice improvement and the pacing is better but more aspects of culture need to be incorporated into the victory. I cannot believe I’m missing Great Works of Art/Music etc but I am
 
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