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Culture Victory Post Patch

Discussion in 'Civ5 - Strategy & Tips' started by Esmond, Jul 5, 2011.

  1. vexing

    vexing knows

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    ah, i thought it would be full rationalism then piety. so i guess you get freedom sooner but are going more turns without the piety culture bonuses
     
  2. Roghar

    Roghar Warlord

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    It's not even remotely that simple - you're ignoring gold/science/resource/military benefits of that city.
     
  3. Furycrab

    Furycrab King

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    It's interesting approach, I'm kinda inclined to agree with Vexing, any time you gain for having broadcast towers faster I'd think you'd lose for not having the Piety bonuses which are at the very least as strong as a broadcast tower.

    You should be able to fill up freedom faster than you would fill Rationalism (after freedom) but you'll have GAs coming out a little bit faster.

    Piety does let you be a hell of a lot more aggressive with taking puppets though with all the bonus happy.

    Looking forward to see how fast your games turn out.

    Had fun trying out your minor challenge yesterday for fun, learning a hell of a lot... Slow first attempt, only 1800 AD. However I more or less know what I should do in my next one (oh and remember to turn on the one turn auto-saves haha)
     
  4. spider1

    spider1 Prince

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    I have got to try this plan this coming weekend. I've been ending up slow, short and late to the punch since the patch and this sounds like the next idea I have to try.
     
  5. BranjoHello

    BranjoHello Chieftain

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    Hmm...are you talking about persuing cultural victory on Diety?

    Cause I'm planing to play with Napoleon on King and I can't imagine having less than 8-10 cities because of need for various resources. Or would you advise to have 4-5 great cities and aquire resources through trade?
     
  6. vexing

    vexing knows

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    we're mostly talking about chieftain actually.

    what "need for resources" are you talking about? luxuries? on regular difficulty a new city with 1 pop costs 4 happiness, and a luxury gives 4 happiness, so it takes some work to make a new city happiness neutral even if you "gain" a luxury.

    regardless of difficulty i'd say more than 4 built cities is a mistake. that's how many you can get free opera houses for with legalism, which should speed up getting hermitage significantly. taking a couple capitals as puppets doesn't hurt though; they should have 2 luxuries, don't increase your sp costs and aren't required to have opera house built for you to build hermitage.
     
  7. BranjoHello

    BranjoHello Chieftain

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    I don't know anything about puppets. Is that when you conquer a city but don't annex it?
    What they do then? Pay you tribute, culture, like city states?
     
  8. sithofheaven

    sithofheaven Chieftain

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    They act like regular cities but you can't control what tiles it works or what it builds. They don't increase the cost of future SP's like regular cities do.
     
  9. babinro

    babinro Chieftain

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    1 city if my starting position is not sandwiched between other countries. I tend to get a small army of 4 or so units (mostly archers) to stave off barbarian invaders and prevent the AI from declaring war on me. From there I tend to focus on production buildings and science. Finally I'll build the culture buildings since my bottle neck will be getting to the high techs.

    In cases that I'm not strategically positioned, I'll often have to expand to either 2 or 3 cities in order to get more aggressive resources like Iron and remain competitive in technology. I continue to focus on technology and production first though.

    Trees are Tradition, Piety, Patronage, Freedom, Other

    I tend to play on emperor and can finish some culture games without ever going to war...though most involve a long standing defensive war with one country for 65% of the game. The idea is to shift away from science after universities and get cannons as quickly as you can for defensive dominance.

    Culture is easily my favorite win condition and the one I go for most often.
     
  10. Old_Yoda

    Old_Yoda Chieftain

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    So far when I aimed for cultural victories, I have focused on only a few very strong cities to keep policy cost low, also because of this sneaky game comment: "Each city you own will increase Social Policy costs by 15 %! If you wish to play culturally, don't expand too much!" :eek: However, lately I tried to figure out exactly how this culture/policy system worked, to see if an expansive (not aggressive) cultural victory seems sensible (purely from culture point of view). I want to share :p So let's go math mode!:

    First define the parameters:
    P := number of turns to next policy
    T := culture cost of next policy
    B := culture cost of next policy, IF only in possesion of the capital
    r := total culture per turn
    b := culture per turn for every single city, NOT including the capital
    s := culture per turn from capital + city-states + puppets
    n := number of cities, NOT including the capital
    k := increase in social policy cost per new city (puppets not included)

    Relations and assumptions
    P = T/r Obviously
    T = B*(1 + k*n) Tested to be true
    r = s + b*n Assuming all non-capital cities have same culture per turn, which is not far from the truth if building/buying culture buildings fast


    Derivation
    Our holy goal is to reduce P as much as possible with respect to number of cities. Say we have n cities and want to see if P shrinks if we add one more city, so we have n+1 cities:

    P(n) > P(n+1) -->
    T(n)/r(n) > T(n+1)/r(n+1) -->
    B*(1+k*n)/(s+b*n) > B*(1+k*(n+1))/(s+b*(n+1)) -->
    b > k*s

    So this is the final condition that tells whether building new cities will help towards cultural victory, only by assuming all non-capital cities have same culture per turn. When reading through this thread I believe some people mentioned the same condition. Notice the final unequality is not dependent on number of cities n. Hence the remarkable answer to the common question "how many cities are optimal for cultural victory?", is either one city (if b < k*s) or as many cities as possible (if b > k*s and you get cultural buildings fast).

    Tables of parameter dependencies

    Difficulty: B
    Settler: 1/2
    Cheftain: 2/3
    Warlord: 5/6
    Prince: 1
    and 1 for the rest

    Speed: B
    Quick: 2/3
    Standard: 1
    Epic: 3/2
    Marathon: 3

    Also, both Cristo Redentor and Piety finisher makes B -> 0.9*B

    Map size: k
    duel: 0.15
    tiny: 0.15
    small: 0.15
    standard: 0.15
    large: 0.10
    huge: 0.07

    Also, Representation makes k -> 2/3*k


    I checked these numbers with Napoleon, but apparantly Catherine did not like my fast culture rate so early, since she thought I tried to win in a similar way as her. So I got denounced on turn 8 :sad:



    Application on a typical game (for me)
    Difficulty: Prince (then I know I will get the get cultural wonders ;) )
    Size: Small
    Speed: Quick

    I will consider the late stage of the game, with all necessary wonders/buildings built..

    Calculate s:
    For a good game capital culture can be 440 (with Sydney Opera + 5 artist improvements with Freedom finisher).
    There are 12 city-states, say 4 of them are cultural, and they give 26 culture in very late game. So ~100 from them.
    Puppets: Let's say I have been a passive defender, or just annexed all captured, so 0.
    s = 440 + 100 = 540

    Needed b:
    k = 0.10, since I will go Representation, so k -> 2/3*k

    Hence I will need b > k*s = 0.10*540 = 54 culture per turn

    Can I get that?
    Assume I have all buildings, 4 artists, Sistine Chapel, Liberty, Free Religion and Military Caste (honor is extremely good to keep people happy):
    b = (2+3+4+5+3+12+1+2+2)*(1+0.33+0.25) = 54 culture per turn

    So yes, in this case I can exactly get the required culture to keep the number of turns per policy the same as if I only play with the capital. Then one should consider the benefits of a large empire, especially according to science, so I would probably get quite a few cities. In this case I did put the capital culture pretty high, so in many other cases I definately believe that many cities is the way to go for cultural victory.

    If playing huge map size, k will be as small as 0.07*2/3 = 0.047, so I think going large will very often benefit culturally at this size.

    Phew, that was some of a first post, but now it's done :cool:
     
  11. vexing

    vexing knows

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    you make a lot of invalid assumptions to reach your theoretical conclusion and have missed some key points regarding extra cities:
    need to compare the numbers across the entire game, final numbers aren't enough
    extra cities can produce extra artists
    extra cities can have wonders
    extra income allows for more RAs and city state alliances
    you need to have opera houses in all cities before you can build hermitage

    pragmatically the optimal number is going to be three or four for most games, four if there are four "good" spots. this allows you to exploit legalism when you research acoustics to immediately gain four opera houses and start on hermitage, which is a pretty key tactic. it is also sufficient for providing enough income to max out RAs, and small enough that you can potentially build a wonder in each of your extra cities.
     
  12. Old_Yoda

    Old_Yoda Chieftain

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    Thanks, that is some good points! especially that extra cities can produce more artists, but it seems somewhat non-trivial to calculate that contribution :confused:
    Regarding comparing to number of turns for the whole game, I know it is a bit loose only to look at what a city can potentially produce of culture, since it relies on being able to get the cities up and running fast, eventually with help from rush buying some buildings if possible. In the start extra cities will of course always slow down Social Policy aquisition. But hey! I have to simplify a bit to make it eatable ;)
    The +culture/+33 % culture from wonders in extra cities affects the assumption of all extra cities haveing equal culture, so maybe I will try to throw that assumption away and make a bit more general condition.
    Extra income/science/military/city state alliances for more cities I have deliberately ignored, since I am trying to focus on the more direct culture effects.
    Getting opera house in all cities for hermitage should not take too many turns, since one should anyways try to get all culture buildings as fast as possible.

    The tactic with legalism for 4 opera houses is nice, but personally I would rather not limit myself to 4 cities only because of that. I'm still not buying that 4 cities is optimal, especially if there are still at least semi-good city spots available for extra cities, so they can get up and running pretty fast. I will have to test it in practice some time though, maybe the same map 3 times: 1 city, 4 cities, and many cities. But I like the theoretical derivations, even though there are some (not always quite right) assumptions :lol:

    Edit: new and slightly more general condition
    Same parameters as above, except that b is no longer taken to be equal for all extra cities, so we only need to look at r and x, which is the expected culture per turn for the new city one consider building.
    P(n) > P(n+1) -->
    T(n)/r > T(n+1)/(r+x) -->
    B*(1+k*n)/r > B*(1+k*(n+1))/(r+x) -->
    x > k*r/(1+k*n)
    This result does not assume anything on how you have aquired the total culture per turn r so far, so it is more difficult to extract a strategy of number of cities from it. However it can be a useful tool when you are considering whether to build a new city or not, regarding culture. The inequality in my previous post is a special case of this.

    For example let's say you currently have 100 culture per turn, each city increase policy cost by 10 %, and you have 4 cities. Then the condition is:
    x > 0.1*100/(1+0.1*4) = 7.14 culture per turn
    which in many cases should be achievable pretty fast for a new city.
     
  13. vexing

    vexing knows

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    the main problem with your final comparison was putting sydney opera house in your capital - by the time you've reached that point in the tech tree you should be near the end, and it's only available on coastal cities.
    if you do any testing, i suggest you keep track of the culture being produced total and per city at least every 50 turns to get a better estimate, or at critical points like before and after hermitage is built, the +33 for wonder policy is gotten, freedom is finished.

    abusing legalism is really, really nice. you definitely want to get hermitage as fast as possible. you could potentially go for 5 cities and rush buy an opera house in the 5th to still get hermitage early. personally in a standard map its generally hard to find more than 3 really good spots for extra cities - in a larger map where civs are more spread out, there's definitely good reason to settle more than just 4, however you generally don't want to dip into unhappiness so that needs to be considered as well.

    also you want all the cities settled somewhat early so they're established such that they'll have enough population and food for artist specialists, and be able to produce museums in a reasonable amount of time - continually expanding makes it harder to have such.
     
  14. Old_Yoda

    Old_Yoda Chieftain

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    Now I have started the test. I chose the following setup and no extra options checked:

    With this setup there is plenty of space to expand, since Gandhi is more into tall empires, and he will not dare to make Bismarck angry :lol: In this way factors like DoWs, Research Agreements and Trades are not playing a significant role, so I can focus on boosting culture mainly powered by my own empire. It turns out that the 4 city-states are 2 maritime + 2 cultural, so they can benefit this peaceful game. Quick speed is what I usually play, and my computer is somewhat slow at loading in civ5, so duel will help me make the tests quick and less painful ;)

    One city cultural victory
    I will warn you already now, that I am playing in stategic view all the time, since I don't care much for the graphics, and as mentioned my computer has denounced civ5, even though no DoW yet. It is a fairly nice start location:
    Spoiler :

    and later the map turned out to look like this:
    Spoiler :

    Without going into details of the gameplay I can say that I won in 205 turns in 1870 AD.
    And here is how the capital looked right before I turned it into a production machine for Utopia:
    Spoiler :

    It was a very smooth game, which I think will be hard to beat. As you can see I ended up with 9 great artist improvements which produced culture like no tomorrow. From turn 89 to turn 100, the culture changed from 38 to 128 due to many cultural additions in this time. However it was clear that this tactic had pretty slow research in the end, so I never even managed to built Cristo Redentor. The SP order was as follows:
    Finish Tradition -> Piety to Reformation -> adopt Commerce -> finish Piety -> finish Freedom -> finish Patronage (10 science from each city-state, yipii! :p) -> finish Commerce
    I have attached a pdf with table + graph with comments on the crucial culture changing points. Besides there are also the replay and saved game start.
     

    Attached Files:

  15. vexing

    vexing knows

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    i look forward to your multiple city results - i expect a significant increase.

    they should have a significant advantage in that setup due to the extra research. with 7 opponents it's typical to have more than half of research come from RAs.

    if you'd like to try a larger setup minus wars, there is a hidden advanced game option "always peace" if you open up the civ5gameoptions.xml, you can change its visible status to 1 to make it available. i haven't ever tried using the option so caveat emptor.
     
  16. snarzberry

    snarzberry Emperor

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    I just won a deity cultural on a proper map, standard everything/pangaea/Songhai where I shifted gears from domination to culture around the turn 110 mark. I founded 2 cities and annexed an AI hanging gardens capital to go with 3 puppets. I built the h. sophia/porcelain tower and then nabbed a late post-turn 100 oracle, which was a big push in the cultural direction

    It felt like slow going, largely due to me not planning on a cultural victory from near the beginning of the game and also there weren't many cultural CS on the map. Win on turn 308, which is 1876. meh, could definitely knock 30 - 50 turns off with better conditions and a more focused approach.
     
  17. Old_Yoda

    Old_Yoda Chieftain

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    Here comes the exciting results on the cultural victory with 4 cities on the same map as before:

    4 cities cultural victory
    First some key points on how I performed the strategy:
    - get Great Library -> Philosophy -> National College asap, was very lucky to get Writing from goody hut
    - building 3 extra cities fast afterwards
    - build Hanging Gardens in capital, so there is enough food for all the artists + Landmarks later
    - build Hagia Sophia to get GE, get Education and use GE on Notre Dame, so there is enough happiness for the new cities to grow properly
    - use GE from Liberty Finisher on Porcelain Tower, and use GS on Acoustics asap
    - be prepared with temples in all cities and use next SP on Legalism for Opera Houses -> Hermitage
    - invent Archeology and build museums + Louvre -> have 4 artists in all cities
    - go for Radio -> bought 4 Broadcast Towers immediately (had Golden Age for a long time which increased my gold significantly)
    - at last invent Telegraph and build Cristo Redentor (only 2 SPs left at this point though)
    - SP order: Tradition -> finish Liberty -> finish Piety (+ Legalism at that point) -> finish Freedom -> finish Tradition -> finish Patronage

    Until I had museums the extra cities focused mostly on getting strong, so they could contribute well to science and growing. But after museums were built they went all in on artists to get the culture flowing. The capital and map looked like this in the end, before it turned into Utopia production machine:
    Spoiler :



    And yes, Gandhi DoW'ed me for the second time in the game, I never thought that about the old fella :sad:, but it didn't affect the game much.

    The final result was that I won on turn 198 in 1856 AD only 7 turns earlier than with one city :(. However, as mentioned, RAs and trades have not played a big role, and 4 cities will definately be better fit for normal games. In this game it felt like somehwat late before my science really benefitted from the extra cities compared to one. I did indeed get even more Landmarks, 14 in the end. You can see how the culture/turn changed throughout this game here:
    Spoiler :



    I have attached the replay below:
     

    Attached Files:

  18. zyx

    zyx Prince

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    I just tried an deity OCC as inca on tiny highlands vs Gandhi and lost, although I got the GL, PT, HS, AW at the beginning.
    I didn't worry about not having built the SH, but no HG hurt. So is it pure luck, that the AI goes for the "wrong wonders"?

    Gandhi went definitely via Liberty, spammed cities like hell and finaly won a diplomatic victory, I would have needed 7 more SP and the Utopia Project.

    What I also disliked was that the first SP come easily way before you reach the middle ages, so I had to spend them on less useful ones, as saving them does not work anymore.

    Is it easier on grassland for human players? As at least they are not limited that much?

    How many SC are good? Given the fact that the AI has lots of gold, I assume not to many if any at all.
     
  19. vexing

    vexing knows

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    yoda, it looks like you maybe didn't build wonders in any city but capital?

    could you post your spreadsheet as an attachment?
     
  20. Old_Yoda

    Old_Yoda Chieftain

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    Yes, I did build Stonehenge, Great Wall and Chichen Itza in Hamburg, Oracle in Munich, and popped Porcelain Tower + build Machu Picchu in Cologne.
    Sure, I'm not sure if you mean just the pictures or the actual excel file, but you get both (just ignore some of the extra columns in excel, I'm just playing a bit around with the numbers).
     

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