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Culture Victory Post Patch

Discussion in 'Civ5 - Strategy & Tips' started by Esmond, Jul 5, 2011.

  1. vexing

    vexing knows

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    oh, i totally misread your chart initially. it's strange that you didn't build stonehenge in capital given the eventual hermitage multiplier. what's interesting is in your chart you never hit a point where having the extra cities was providing less culture than the increase in SP cost (assuming representation). from the moment you completed stonehenge till freedom finisher you were producing mostly 3x the required amount of culture in your extra cities
     
  2. Old_Yoda

    Old_Yoda Chieftain

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    The reason for not building Stonehenge in capital was simply, that it was too busy producing more important things: GL -> NC -> Settlers -> HG -> Hagia Sophia (I think it was that order). Hence I just made Hamburg build Stonehenge as one of its first jobs to avoid Gandhi got it. Same thing for the Oracle in Munich.

    And yes, I would also have thought that the newly founded cities would drag down in getting SPs in the start, but they seem to hang on and even help quite a bit pretty quick. Hence it surprises me even more, that I actually did not manage to win that much faster than with one city. It will be funny to see how more cities will change this, but for now I will probably not have time to finish such a game anytime soon.
     
  3. Misterboy

    Misterboy Modern Major General

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    I wonder if anyone has done a culture victory with a wide (relatively speaking) empire? I haven't run the numbers myself, but I keep hearing people with more knowledge than me state that the decrease to SP costs per city make it easy to counter the effect in new cities. That leads one to believe that you could get a culture victory with <4 cities. I wonder what would happen with 10 cities or more?

    Personally, post patch, I've only ran one culture game at Emperor (my first game post-patch). I wasn't planning it, but with Egypt (random Civ) and marble in my second city, I just ran with the flow of the game. It was the easiest culture victory I've ever done, with pretty sloppy play and I didn't really set myself up for heavy culture tech/wonder/GreatPerson runs. That was with 4 cities. In the end I kind of wished I had gone with at least 6 cities.
     
  4. Old_Yoda

    Old_Yoda Chieftain

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    Oh well, I found the time to make this last game to test out culture victory with many cities. Let me just remind you how it went on previous tests: one city took 205 turns in 1870 AD, while 4 cities was a bit faster with only 198 turns in 1856 AD. I must admit my belief in many cities being fastest was shaked a bit after the 4 cities victory, which felt quite effective, but here is how it went:

    Many (well, 8) cities cultural victory
    Again here are the key points of how I played:
    - Great Library -> Philosophy -> National College
    - capital build settlers as much as happiness allows
    - capital also builds Hanging Gardens + Stonehenge (maybe a mistake with Stonehenge, it took a bit of my momentum)
    - use GEs from Hagia Sophia and Liberty finisher on Notre Dame and Chichen Itza for more happiness -> build even more settlers
    - new cities are attempted to be built on hills for the extra production, and they start with monument + temple which helps with both culture and happiness due to Organized Religion
    - stopped expansion when Acoustics was close, which was at 7 extra cities, so I would not need to wait forever to get Hermitage, but as you can see in the table it was still late before I got it
    - I hard teched all the way to both Acoustics and Archaeology, since the many cities anyways needed some time to build the previous cultural buildings and just grow
    - When a city had built Museum it worked with as many artists as possible, most often 4. This is easy with Civil Society, see for example here in a 5 citizen city:
    Spoiler :

    I had 1 maritime ally which helped a lot
    - I ended up with 5 Great Scientists from Porcelain Tower and produced in capital. I used them to pop all the way to Radio + Telegraph, at which point I used Legalism for 4 Broadcast Towers, bought 3, and build 1
    - This is the first game where I got Cristo Redentor soon enough for it to actually make a difference before victory
    - SP order: finish Liberty -> finish Piety -> finish Freedom -> finish Tradition/Honor (focus on Legalism + Military Caste)

    Again Gandhi DoW'ed me twice, and he had also the Honor tree, but also again no real effect on the game, I guess he just doesn't like expansion, being it himself or others doesn't matter :) I never really had much gold at my disposal, before late in the game, due to the small cities being mainly culture focused. After Hermitage was built I considered founding even more cities, but I think it would have slowed me down too much, because at this point the total culture really begins to grow fast, and the Landmarks + Freedom finisher will soon make the capital into the dominant factor. Oh yea, when talking Landmarks, this time I also got 14 Landmarks in my capital. But enough of talking tactics, the final result of this game with semi many cities is.... *drums* :band: :
    Spoiler :
    205 TURNS in 1870 AD !!! so exactly the same as for one city, but however a bit longer time than with 4 cities.

    and an overview of my cities at the time of victory:
    Spoiler :

    Here is a table on how the culture/turn changed with comments (for graph see comparison below):
    Spoiler :

    and the replay is attached.

    Comparison of the 3 ways to cultural victory
    Unfortunately I must admit that at least under these circumstances the 4-city tactic with Legalism for Opera Houses was superior, even though just with a small margin. But it also shows that many cities is not at all a hindrance for fast cultural victory. If one just keep focus on cultural buildings and artists, then even a small city can be helpful. Here goes how the culture flow changed in the different games compared to each other:
    Spoiler :

    Notice that the capitals in all 3 games end a bit above 600 culture/turn, however the one-city game naturally started out with best culture in the capital, but the many Landmarks from extra cities will in the end make the many-city capitals pass by the one-city capital. This graph is pretty nice to see distribution between the culture from capital and extra cities, but it is difficult to read from it what actually matters: which way is fastest at getting Social Policies. Therefore I have divided the total culture by (1 + 0.1*n) where n is number of extra cities, to account for the increased policy cost per city. I have here assumed Representation, which is usually aquired early in the game before the culture race starts for real. Plotting this 'normalized' culture will give a much more correct picture of which playstyle is paying off policy-wise:
    Spoiler :

    As you can see it is clear that the 4-city game is actually in front most of the time, hence that was also the fastest to win. On the other hand one-city is in front of many-cities in a large part of the game, but get passed in the end. The number of aquired policies (i.e. normalized culture) can intuitively be found by comparing the areas under each curve. So since one-city and many-cities cover about the same area, they also finished exactly on the same turn.

    Another interesting thing to look into (aren't all these numbers and graphs just beautiful? :crazyeye: ) is at what parts of the game that the extra cities on average helps directly with getting policies, purely measured from their own culture. This can be found by comparing to the formula from my very first post: b > k*s where k = 0.1 in this case, and s is the culture from capital + city-states. Below I plot ratio between the actual average culture per extra city in the game, and the needed culture for the city to help getting policies according to the formula:
    Spoiler :

    In short, ratio < 1 is bad, and ratio > 1 is good. As vexing mentioned earlier the extra cities actually pretty much never slow down the policy acquisition, and for a long time they give back 3 times more culture than is actually needed to be a good investment.

    I hope other people are enjoying to go through the numbers like I did :lol:. I have also attached to excel file in which everything is gathered and calculated. I wish I had known the hidden option with 'Always Peace' that vexing mentioned, before I ended the first game. Then I could have made a game with more civs, and the results would probably have been more realistic compared to how a normal game looks regarding to RAs, trades, not getting all wonders etc. Besides looking back I should probably also just have disabled goody huts and barbarians to minimize random elements from game to game. However, I still find the results useful and, what's more important, fun to make. I am definately not scared of going for a wide cultural victory in the future, but I will leave the number crunching ;)
     

    Attached Files:

  5. vexing

    vexing knows

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    cool. thanks for the info - i'll take it as confirmation that four cities is optimal =)
     
  6. Vo01985

    Vo01985 Warlord

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    What about three cities? You should test that too, and perhaps two cities? Whenever I got for culture I never found more than 4 cities but I also sometimes feel one city is not producing as much culture as it should, eg. making it kind of useless.
     
  7. Old_Yoda

    Old_Yoda Chieftain

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    The only reason I can think of for 2 or 3 cities to be better than 4 cities, is if there is no just remotely good locations for the 4th city. The reason for 4 being the magical number relies purely on the Legalism SP as I see it, oh well and that you then are somewhat sure to get a world wonder in all 4 cities. Just make sure that all 4 cities get a world wonder, and that they all run with 4 artists when museum is up, then the culture for all 3 extra cities should be around the same amount.

    Besides, I don't wanna go through that map again ;)
     
  8. zyx

    zyx Prince

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    I am just curious: how did you manage to keep the research rate high enough to get christo redentor? Focusing on culture and science is the key to a cultural victory.

    Maybe using legalism for the opera houses instead fo the broadcasting towers is better in the long run, as they and hermitage create a higher surplus due to the number of turns they produce culture.

    I accomplished a cultural victory with inca on prince/duel/highlands (wanted to have an additional advantage) vs Gandhi with 2 cities on turn 403.

    I finished liberty, started tradition, partonage, rationalism, finished freedom, finished patronage, finished rationalism ( to get 2 late techs for free) finished tradition ( used legalism for broadcasting towers ).

    Although I was very lucky to have marble and stone in the capital and built a lot of wonders, I wonder why I needed twice as long as you?

    Maybe highlands isn't good for cultural victories, too many mountains, growth happens too slowly.
     
  9. Old_Yoda

    Old_Yoda Chieftain

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    I made my capital the main science source. When it had university I used 2 scientists in the capital until I got the Telegraph, even if it meant there was no space to use artists in the early game. This gave me in the end 4 Great Scientists + 1 from Porcelain Tower, so I hard teched all the way up to Archaeology + Scientific Theory + Military Science, after which I popped the last 5 techs to get Radio + Telegraph. The other cities only contributed a little to science, I focused them all on culture, and had no universities in them (so no Oxford, but building 7 universities would have taken too much focus off the culture).

    Hermitage will not be built anytime sooner by using Legalism on opera houses if having 8 cities, since the first 4 cities anyways are the fastest to make the opera houses. Besides, I would rather finish Piety + Freedom faster, without using 2 SPs in the tradition tree.
    First of all, I bet you played standard game speed, while I played quick speed :D Second of all, surely Rationalism is nice to speed up the techs, but Piety gives +33 % culture for world wonders +1 cul for monument/temple + 1 free SP + 10% cheaper SPs, and you can get it quite early in the game, so it will be a huge culture boost. I also think with < 5 cities, that Legalism should be used for opera houses -> Hermitage, as you suggested yourself.
     

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