[R&F] Culture Victory Strategy

[Stamson]

It seems that this forum (and the Civ playerbase as a whole, maybe), are devoid of discussion about strategic Culture Victory discussion in Civ VI.

There was a decent thread about quick SV here: https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/how-to-quick-sv-share-your-view.628174/ . It's, unfortunately, pretty outdated and the closest thing to a guide is a few Chinese videos. The only person making English SVs was @civtrader6 , but has yet to add anything for R&F. Regardless, atleast there was some discussion about SVs in R&F, which is more then what can be said about Culture.

So what's the deal with CV's? In my experience, they are by far the slowest victory type. I am just a noob however, and would love to see what the pros do. In particular, I believe that @Victoria had a guide up at somepoint for CVs in vanilla, but I think it is removed. So let's get a discussion going about optimizing CV wins. Some talking points:

• Overall strategy/approach to fast CVs
• Best civs to attempt a fast CV
• How Vanilla to R&F changed things
• Tourism, and all it's mysterious mechanics
• Prioritization of great people, raw culture output, raw tourism output, wonders, national parks, and seaside resorts
• What role (if any) does religion play in a CV

Can't wait to hear what everyone has to say

 

[Victoria]

So the fastest Cv is a peaceful deity CV. On Deity the AI civs have a lot of money to throw around and you can get it off them in a variety of ways. Basically you can get around T100 if you did everything perfectly
The key is to get culture districts ASAP chopped in and working and early great writers as these provide a ton of culture and works.
The use of Pingala with Oracle can get you huge amounts of GPP's
The key is to stop other civs's getting Great writers which limits their culture and allows you to win a lot faster, that is key.
The general strategy of chopping with Magnus is a huge benefit.

Tourism is not hard. For foreign tourism there is city based tourism and that is what is given at the top of your screen as tourism points. This is then modified in the tourism victory screen by the overall modifiers of religion, government, open borders and trade routes. Depending on map size your foreign tourism sent to a civ accumulates with say 1600 tourism = 1 tourist point. (for standard map size, 8 civs)
Your domestic tourism is the sum of all of your culture you have collected so far divided by 100 (including inspirations, moon landing benefits, any culture).
For every foreign tourist you get at a civ you reduce their domestic tourism by 1.
The idea being you need to have more foreign tourist points with a civ than they have domestic.

Great writers give great tourism, seaside resorts also can and to a degree archeological works. These are 3 big makers of tourism. Stealing writings with spies is quite strong.
Fast victories by pumping out relics is very hard and very lucky to get. Religion as a whole tends to slow down a pure culture rush
Additional civ cultural improvements can help a fast culture rush too.
Wonders are not really worth it purely to build for tourism... but if you need them anyway like Oracle, great library and so forth then they can be of good use.
Works of art are a joke, maybe 1 for the inspiration but museums far outstrip, you just have to be fast.
A key thing with getting a CV as fast as a SV if not faster is you have to concentrate and not build anything or do anything not directly related to your victory.
Bottom line is a lot of concentration and micro management to get a CV under 150... a relaxed player should be aiming for 200 roughly as a GG.

R&F has upped the requirement for foreign tourist points by 33% but its much much easier to get them and the governors just make it so much easier.

Greece, Russia, Persia, China are all good CV civs, so are others, Gorgo is probably best... conquest CV is quite an easy way to get a CV in T150, just beat everyone else up, if you can do it fast enough like with persia you can get a T100 CV that way... saying one civ is best is meh, depends on circumstance.

Old vanilla guide was rubbish

 

[Fluphen Azine]

How many cities should you focus on getting up?

Should you kill an entire Civ or just take a Capital?

Should you war with one Civ or Multiple nearby Civs?

What type of CS can or should you kill?

Should you grow tall?

Do you want to build any districts before a Culture District?

 

[chazzycat]

Maybe an unpopular opinion...personally I LOVE culture victory but don't care a lick about "optimizing" for it.

CV, like SV, is depending on the number of districts you have. So like SV, the "optimized" strategy is to kill the AI as fast as possible and build that district first in every city.

Forgetting that fact is the key to enjoying it

 

[Fluphen Azine]

I rolled a game as Rome an hour or so ago.
I played up till turn 165.
Not very good land and I tried to be peaceful for too long I suppose.
I got up the Oracle and rushed the Culture Districts first.
Russia had the first two writers before me.
Korea and Gilgamesh were out of control with Science.
I only had 50 tourism.
Russia had 75.
Arabia sneak attacked me and I took two of their cities.
I guess if I kept messing with it I might be able to CV but most likely too far gone now and did too many things wrong.
I have too many writers now with no home and a GA as well.
4 Archaeology Museums online now but I don't think it would matter.

My first spy died as well trying to get a tech boost.
I guess I should of waited for a chance at Stealing a Great Work from Russia.

 

[chazzycat]

oh if Russia is in the game forget a peaceful approach. go kill Peter right away

 

[Fluphen Azine]

If I am going to Kill I might as well Kill and keep Killing

You know get up some Great Generals and War it up which is how I like to play anyway.

Russia was on the other side of the map so I would have to go through 3 Civs to get at him.

Not a bad plan since I could of took Science from Korea but waiting too long seems to make the AI stronger and stronger.

I waited one game playing around with a CV and Genghis was just out of control with Army and Culture.

As usual I blasted off into Space at turn 296 which is late compared to most of the games I see on this forum.

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So your style chazzycat is to Warmonger and when you take cities build the Culture District asap in those acquired cities?

How many core cities do you usually build?

What districts do you build first?

 

[myclan]

I think in Civ6 the easiest way to win is to conquer all the AI, leading to a dominaion victory or "fake" religious/culture/scientific victory. AI is weak now and you won't lose too much during a war. Instead you weaken your rival and strengthen yourself at the same time. So this is the most steady way to win, though may not be the fastest.

If choose to play peacefully, you are just setting a prerequisite to limit yourself, like the "no overflow abused" limitation or others like this.

If you agree to set the prerequisite, I think the core strategy is like what Victoria had said: Build TD asap to grab all the GW/GA/GM, you may not need them at once but at least weaken your opponent. Then develop technology asap to get archaeologist/seaside resort/computer.

 

[Mesix]

If you are going to war to get your culture victory, you do not need to build cities or wonders. You need to build military units. The AI will build the cities and wonders for you. The higher the difficulty level, the faster the AI will build cities and wonders for you (in other words, the fastest victory for this method will be at Immortal or Deity level, not at lower levels). Work on getting Theatre Squares up in every city as fast as you can and perhaps also Holy Sites for some leaders (I'm looking at you Peter). Crank out the GW, get as many relics as you can, and conquer the AI cities which have wonders. Make sure to leave one AI with their original capital to prevent the unwanted domination.

To get started you will want to build a force of 4 slingers (to upgrade to archers) and 2-3 melee units. At higher levels, you will probably only take one AI civ with archers before stalling a bit to get machinery for the crossbow upgrade. At lower levels, you should be able to take one civ with slingers and perhaps two more with archers before upgrading to crossbows...although as mentioned already they will provide fewer cities cities and wonders for the effort. If you are playing on a continents map, try to conquer your initial continent before venturing out to discover the rest of the map to prevent an early dogpile from the warmongering. At the very least, DOW your closes AI opponents in the Ancient or Classical era to get the least warmonger penalties.

 

[Fluphen Azine]

I played France just now on Deity/Standard/Pangaea and sorta tried what you are talking about Mesix.
I found it difficult to say the least. My neighbor was Gilgamesh and he was doing some Serious Expanding any and every way possible.
I tried to steal a worker from him on something like turn 5 but it didn't work and I had to peace out.
I got up two cities to get two horses.
I had a pretty large Horse Army but things were slow going.
I am not exactly sure of all the modifiers he had but it was grueling.
I ended up wiping him out with a slow grind of X-bows and eventually upgraded them but because my SPT was very low it took a good while.
Pillaging science from him helped but Russia was on the other side of the map having fun with culture and tourism.
The game was very slow going but I managed to get ahead and stay ahead.
I killed China and Jaya. I took a city from Russia but had to peace them out.
Another Civ attacked and I had to go slow with them and took their Capital.
Now the Fastest way to win is to blast off around turn 280 into Space but I could win a CV but it would take longer.

I don't know how you guys make the Slinger/Archer one city work all the time but I find it difficult in the current form of the game.
Of course trying to get a CV on turn 100-150 boggles me as well not to mention trying to play for it Peacefully on a Standard Pangaea Map.

 

[Victoria]

I have too many writers now with no home and a GA as well.
4 Archaeology Museums online now but I don't think it would matter.
My first spy died as well trying to get a tech boost.
I guess I should of waited for a chance at Stealing a Great Work from Russia.

No such thing as too many writers, every extra is one someone else does not have... you must stop Civ's getting any writers, they produce too much culture.
Arch museums are great, you now need to switch to science to get to computers ASAP.
First spy, go for stealing gold first to get a promo, use Machiavellianism to speed up your spies and get them cheaper, once they are at level 3 then send them after works (always escape on foot)

Of course trying to get a CV on turn 100-150 boggles me as well not to mention trying to play for it Peacefully on a Standard Pangaea Map.

Look at deity AI and what they do not do... that is how you catch up. They do not tend to slot discount cards, they tend not to chop anything and certainly not with discount cards. The more intense your chopping the faster you catch up. Intensity may not be sooner, you should try and save it a bit for feudalism but early chopping does seem to make up for a lot.

 

[myclan]

I played France just now on Deity/Standard/Pangaea and sorta tried what you are talking about Mesix.
I found it difficult to say the least. My neighbor was Gilgamesh and he was doing some Serious Expanding any and every way possible.
I tried to steal a worker from him on something like turn 5 but it didn't work and I had to peace out.
I got up two cities to get two horses.
I had a pretty large Horse Army but things were slow going.
I am not exactly sure of all the modifiers he had but it was grueling.
I ended up wiping him out with a slow grind of X-bows and eventually upgraded them but because my SPT was very low it took a good while.
Pillaging science from him helped but Russia was on the other side of the map having fun with culture and tourism.
The game was very slow going but I managed to get ahead and stay ahead.
I killed China and Jaya. I took a city from Russia but had to peace them out.
Another Civ attacked and I had to go slow with them and took their Capital.
Now the Fastest way to win is to blast off around turn 280 into Space but I could win a CV but it would take longer.

I don't know how you guys make the Slinger/Archer one city work all the time but I find it difficult in the current form of the game.
Of course trying to get a CV on turn 100-150 boggles me as well not to mention trying to play for it Peacefully on a Standard Pangaea Map.

I think France is not a very good CV nation, but good at DV. Sumera has war cart which is hard to deal with during ancient age, so you may suffer when being his neighbour. But it seems lucky that you have double horse to produce horseman. With the +3 modifier you have a chance to defeat him in classical age.

Russia AI far away is also a great challenge for CV. The same with Kongo. We should choose our victory condition according to the map, instead of deciding it before loading the map. Sometimes we don't need Legion as Roman and sometimes we don't even build a ship as Viking. So I don't suggest a CV attempt on your map.

 

[Mesix]

I don't know how you guys make the Slinger/Archer one city work all the time but I find it difficult in the current form of the game.
Of course trying to get a CV on turn 100-150 boggles me as well not to mention trying to play for it Peacefully on a Standard Pangaea Map.

Since it is a new strategy for you, give it a try at Immortal as there are fewer free units for the AI. Also try on a Continents map to prevent the dogpile due to War Monger penalties. You should be able to take out one AI civ with Archers (upgraded from Slingers to reduce the time it takes) before stalling a bit to research Machinery. Play as Peter (so that the AI cannot) and work an early unique Holy Site (Lavra) into your build order. Try this out:

Build Order:
Scout
Scout
Slinger
Slinger
Slinger
Slinger
Holy Site (Lavra)
Warrior (or Spearman)
Warrior (or Spearman)
Theatre Square (or Campus)
More units (I'll leave this up to you)
Campus (or Theatre Square)

Use Scouts to explore and Slingers to hunt barbarians. Upgrade Slingers (45 gold each) and buy one worker (200 gold) for a total of 380 gold. If you clear enough barb camps (or goodie huts) to get the extra gold, you can also buy (not build) a Settler to get a 2nd city. Eventually you might also consider buying (or building) a granary in your capital.

If you want to get a religion, work the Lavra plus a Shrine into your build order as soon as you have the necessary tech.

As you take cities, build monuments and Lavras followed by units and eventually a Theatre Square.

 

[Victoria]

Build Order:
Scout
Scout
Slinger
Slinger
Slinger
Slinger

One would think you are rather in the large minority with this build... for a start where is a builder?

 

[Mesix]

One would think you are rather in the large minority with this build... for a start where is a builder?

...buy one worker (200 gold)...

 

[Fluphen Azine]

Thanks for all the comments!

I was messing about with Russia before anyone had re-posted to my original comments.
I am pretty sure I am not focused enough on CV to get it rolling.
I spawned at the lower part of a Pangaea Map.
I went slinger, slinger, slinger, warrior, warrior, slinger and a few more warriors and slingers.

I found Brazil to my East and Armani to my West.
I stole a Worker from Brazil on turn 10 or so.
Brazil didn't come after me so I just waited with the first Slinger for reinforcements.
I had my original Warrior on top of Armani waiting for a free settler.
As I brought units over to Brazil I kept killing units and ended up getting a free settler from Barbs that was most likely Genghis Khans.
Khan had a bunch of Warriors in my land and that is why I kept building the units.
I had two Jade that I got up and traded and was able to afford this large early army.
I found 2 Culture CS's and one other. The other got gobbled up but I managed to get some points into the Culture CS's,
Eventually Mongolia decided not to attack my Horde and I got him to DoW Brazil with little effect except for his units dying to Walls and Barbs which is a good thing.

I killed a good many Brazil Units and stole another worker.
With my Gold I bought Two Settlers and had one Free.
I made a mistake and left my Armani post and she Forward Settled me.
I fell into a Dark Age and Missed the Heroic by one Era Point after that.

Brazil still expanded somewhat decent and got walls up.
I had to raze one of their expos because of Loyalty Pressure.
So I got all their gold and a resource.
Next up was Armani and I was able to chop out some Horses.
I upgraded 4 or 5 Warriors to Swords.
I got the Expo near my and headed towards the Capital.
It was about turn 88 and I had it surrounded and down to half life.
She had a couple of Knights that I killed but she didn't have walls but her modifiers were too strong to break into the Capital.
I had to peace out for 80gpt and some resources.

Since I had some good +3 spots for Campuses I put them up first and didn't bother with the Larve.
Of course with Hindsight if I built the Larve I would of had either no Dark Age or a Heroic Age for sure.
The problem is I tend to get a little lost into the game and forget what to do.

So now I am at turn 90 and it feels busted for a CV.

That game was Fun but it seems my style has always had trouble with CV's in general on any Civ Game.
Except for Civ Revolution on the PS3... lol... you could do anything you wanted on that game.

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Even though France isn't a Great Civ or a Top CV Civ I always thought they were supposed to be a Natural for CV!?
France and a Culture Victory just sounds good even if one feels they are better at Domination.

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My objectives are always to play some generic strategy and make it work for all Civs.
I am not really trying to play some CV Dominant Civ and runaway with the game because that is what they do.
I have to do it with a Civ that isn't geared up for it and I like having some Monster across the other side of the Map laughing at me.
Of course this idea of mine might hinder or make what I want to do impossible.

I am still working on it and it is fun to post up about my struggles and try to learn from you better players.
I know many of you can get turn 100-150 victories with ease but for me at turn 75 and 4 or 5 cities and not much direction I am always impressed with you guys/gals.
I think my problem is poor planning.

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My Ego won't allow me to play Immortal.
I find it boring but I understand using it as a learning curve.
I tried to play the GOTM Immortal game this month but Island Plates is just not for me.
So darn boring playing Sandbox Mode in my mind.
I was in the tech lead on something like turn 40/50 which sours my desire.

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After going back to take a picture of that Russia Game it looks like I made peace on turn 99/100.
Here is a picture. You can see that I have no Tourism LOL!!

Fun game for me but completely the wrong direction for CV I suppose.
I decided to chop in walls before Limes in the Capital for the Tech Boost
Another problem of mine is moving my Army from East to West all the time instead of using a two pronged approach.
I need to get better at having Two Separate Armies.
Poor Scouting as well for me this game.

 

[Fluphen Azine]

103 Turns later.
Turn 203

I decided not to Kill the Civs this time making it go a bit faster and just peace out when taking the Capitals.
Usually I need the Era Score but since I have been building some Wonders I will get another Golden Age in a few turns.

Would I be able to overcome the Aztecs from this point on and not do any more Warmongering?

I feel like you need over 1k in Tourism and you need it pretty fast?
I don't really know how to go about it. I will mess about with some spies and trying to steal Great Works for some fun.
Any thoughts or opinions are appreciated. Positive or Negative.

I played up to turn 266 and going to take a break.
It feels like I should lose but most likely the AI won't blast off in time.
This is the current Culture Screen.
Not much of a clue what I am doing.
I decided to kill Amani anyway.
Fought Jon Curtain because of an Emergency.
Made peace and been digging mostly.
Put in all the Tourism Cards I think.
Spies are kind of fun when they become Elite.
That is something new for me.

 

[Fluphen Azine]

I ended up playing it through and this is my first CV on Civ VI because I just never bothered.
A nice change of pace and similar to SV.
A little bit more fun.

I want to thank Victoria for the tip on always escaping on Foot.
I didn't know that but I think they should equally randomize that giving you a 1 in 4 chance each time you choose for a base.
Cards or other things could increase those chances of escape.
Not sure that I like that escaping on foot is some sort of high percentage default for success.

My next game I decided to play Gorgo and see how it goes with another CV attempt.
I went with the usual Deity Pangaea Standard Standard

I was able to get better at abusing the AI.
I stole a Settler off of Washington and the Vikings.
I opted to try Mesix's all Slinger/Warrior approach.
I bought a Settler as well and ended up buying another later on.
I settled these cities for the Horses but never used them.
Instead I sold them and waited for XBows/Knights.
I hard built a Settler later around turn 90 or so to squeeze in one more while I was taking over the Netherlands.

So even though I know I should build an encampment for the Boost, GG and other things I didn't do it.
I think having a GG makes things easier though and wish I had.
I opted for straight early campuses again and Acropolises afterwards.
I ended up delaying the Government Plaza and still haven't built it yet on turn 106 now.

I haven't grown enough in the Capital.
Also I just don't play very well which is why I keep posting about it to get better.
Another thing I did different this game is that I only chopped with Limes instead of moving Magnus around when doing so.
I thought this might be better to get my total Acropolises in faster.

I like the approach that Mesix talks about though and I find that it works pretty good stealing settlers/workers, killing barbs and pressuring the AI into peace deals and vulture opportunities.
I know the better players say that worker/settler first is stronger but I find all out military to be the safer, no danger approach.
When I would get into builders and settlers I had games where I would get rolled or at least in danger of getting rolled or barb rushed.

It wasn't too long after the screenshot that I took over Bandar Brunei and planted a desert city by the oasis for some Iron.
upgraded my archers and warriors and a couple of chariots and started in on the Netherlands.
I got Gilgamesh to join in but he didn't do much and made peace since the Zulu are giving him problems.
Even though the Vikings only have 3 cities total I asked him to join to get his lower grade units away from home.
Trade has been good and I have focused on Amphitheaters first into Libraries/Universities.

I don't think I can get a CV before turn 150 but perhaps before turn 200 is possible for me this game.

 

[Victoria]

Not sure that I like that escaping on foot is some sort of high percentage default for success.

Because the testing is so hard and the tossers at Firaxis will not tell us the rules we will probably not know for sure until the code is readable but it appears that if the city has more ways of escape the chances of escape are better anyway, also a master spy should normally escape anyway but there is always a risk of counterspies messing things up which is why I said foot is best.
It sort of makes sense that foot is best but is slowest, more risk for a faster escape... but the airports and stations are watched.

 

[Mesix]

Nice start to your Gorgo game. I think you expanded a bit faster than my attempt with Peter (which I will write about in my next post).