Culture victory too good ?

[bobi]

Hi all,

First time posting. I love VP, I've been playing this mod for way too long, and most of the things bothering me were always fixed with updates.
There is one thing that is still here after years, and I have no idea if it's just me (the way I play), or if it's intentional or not :

90% of my non-domination victories are culture victories.

There is 3 things about that
1 - Even when playing a pro science / diplomacy / domination civ, culture victory end up being the best "pacifist" option, even if i'm not min-maxing my culture / tourism...
2 - I really feel like culture victory oriented bonuses (from buildings, wonders, GP, religion, tenets...) are stronger than science / diplomacy bonuses. So cultural victory is coming sooner than other victories, and I'm always more inclined in taking the culture bonuses first / over the others.
3 - I tried going 200% science / diplo and 0 % tourism - I always end up having a way harder game (especially with happiness), and when I win, it's always way later in the deep end game.

So what do you guys think ?
Is it just a me thing or do this happen to you aswell ?
Is culture / tourism OP ? Or is it science and diplo that are too slow to get ? (especially science imo)

btw i'm playing on 4 to 7 difficulty, mainly on standard and epic speed, 8 to 12 civs.. Nothing out of the ordinary I believe

Anyway, thank you in advance, looking forward for opinions

PS : Sorry for bad english

 

[Agiwan]

I think culture victories happen just too fast.

 

[greenfieldpark]

I think culture victories happen just too fast.

Agreed

 

[hokath]

It's a complicated topic, but if we look at the most objective data we have,

the most recent AI dataset gives Cultural Victory as fastest for the AI, on average.

Now its not necessarily a good idea to balance based purely on plots like this, but we can probably reduce Tourism a tad bit more.
Question is where from?
Personally I think Broadcast Tower increases output a bit too much (but that might not move the dial too much, considering how late it is), so I would start by decreasing it from 1/2 to 1/4 Citizens.

 

[Trumtram]

My feeling is that at some point (around broadcast towers / ideologies) tourism gets out of control. If you put your eggs into the culture/tourism basket it spirals out of control.

I usually have the same sensation that I'm not actively pursuing a culture victory, but STILL get it before a science victory.

One thing that I meant to ask (not sure if it makes a tremendous difference, though): What is the reason for not having to get all three third level tenets to be eligible for the culture victory? It would it least postpone it a couple of turns.

 

[Zuizgond]

Agree cultural victories happen far too early (at least for a human player). I think we should nerf tourism a bit more instead of forcing all T3 tenets. Broadcast towers seem to be a good start.

 

[bobi]

It's a complicated topic, but if we look at the most objective data we have,
View attachment 710986
the most recent AI dataset gives Cultural Victory as fastest for the AI, on average.

Now its not necessarily a good idea to balance based purely on plots like this, but we can probably reduce Tourism a tad bit more.
Question is where from?
Personally I think Broadcast Tower increases output a bit too much (but that might not move the dial too much, considering how late it is), so I would start by decreasing it from 1/2 to 1/4 Citizens.

Never seen this graph, it's interesting.
Could someone elaborate a bit on this ? Or is there a thread explaining it already ?

Btw i'm glad to see that I'm not the only one thinking this way about culture victory.
And this graph kinda confirm what I was thinking :

-Culture victory is going to be the best 90% of the time (= fastest)
-Diplo can be good but can't beat culture at its best because relying on congress.
-Science is basically a "backup plan" if you fail at others... Playing science civ with the main objective of winning by science is like a challenge run on harder difficulties, compared to other victories, especially culture.
I do feel like you can't go full science and get the same advance over AI like you would if you went full culture. And even if you do, the congress can help other players catch up on techs, unlike for tenets. That makes science even more unreliable and weaker compared to culture imo.

Nerfing tourism & buffiing / reworking science so you can actually get there fast if you min-max everything for science.

 

[CppMaster]

the most recent AI dataset gives Cultural Victory as fastest for the AI, on average.

It could be that AI doesn't focus on cultural victory as good as a player can, so it's not that much faster in hands of AI.

Science is basically a "backup plan" if you fail at others...

That's true, and time victory is like a plan C.

 

[Captain Carrot]

Never seen this graph, it's interesting.
Could someone elaborate a bit on this ? Or is there a thread explaining it already ?

https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/1000-ai-game-4-15-2-4uc-supply-rework-stats.692563/

 

[burticus]

I've wondered this as well, science vic is almost impossible most times but culture vic is right there for me frequently. I used to tend towards science but the AI is always ahead of me on techs constantly. And I'm not a huge warmonger fan, if I get attacked I'll strike back but I don't usually go first, or agree with my "friend" civs to go to war.