Culture Victory Update

[Victoria]

Looking at the CV params and they have not changed... so

Key
TOURISM_CULTURE_PER_CITIZEN=100 - This means every 100 culture you accumulate = 1 domestic tourist.
TOURISM_TOURISM_TO_MOVE_CITIZEN = 200 - This is multiplied by the starting number of players in the game to decide how much tourism it takes accumulated with an individual civ to get a tourism point from that civ ... and remove a domestic tourist from that civ.

New
TOURISM_ADVANCED_ERA_WONDER = True (???)
TOURISM_BOMB_WONDER_ADDITIONAL = 1000 (Is this for rock bands?)

Changed
TOURISM_CONFLICTING_GOVERNMENT_MULTIPLIER = 1

Unchanged
TOURISM_BASE_FROM_WONDER = 2
TOURISM_DIFFERENT_RELIGION_REDUCTION=50
TOURISM_FROM_HOLY_CITY=8
TOURISM_OPEN_BORDERS_BONUS=25
TOURISM_TRADE_ROUTE_BONUS=25

The only other comments I would make initially are these 5 but would welcome other comments / analysis.

• Based on the above and the new pillaging rules, fast CV's should be faster (seem to be)
• If you are not fast enough and need computers.. you are now 75% short of what used to be there so you need to make the difference up with rock bands and other cards.
• Maori are potentially not that good at culture because their Marae does not generate culture until flight. Based on this the strategy is to push campus first and then theaters with them as the science is much more important.
• Rock band (culture bomb) is civ specific and so you should be playing to the person with the highest culture output to reduce their domestic tourists.
• The different government multiplier is now 1/3 of what it was making life easier.

 

[kb27787]

Marae is not really flight tourism (pair of books with printing most likely will give more unless your city is big and working many tiles), what makes it insane is the faith... the culture output itself will outpace the books (since printing does not double their culture) at moderate city size.

With that faith you can spam rock bands every 2 turns without a single holy site. Get Hailyuu card and all your bands are guaranteed to get the +2 on wonders promotion.

If you pillage the culture leader you get culture and destroy their culture output... seems ok I guess but I fully expect pillaging to be nerfed soon.

Still compared to deity RnF I am not sure if it will be faster (in my own play it's around 10-15 turns slower... from ~170 to ~190 now--excepting crazy starts, or unless Rapa Nui shows up as a CS unconquered)... computers back then was so much more powerful and will overtake the new rock bands at higher levels of tourism. Also I'm noticing even non-culture focused AI getting 150 culture at least... Greece you can expect 200-300 culture per turn on deity which if you have bad rolls on your rock bands will take FOREVER to eat through passively.

 

[Zyxpsilon]

The most common problem we all have with CV is the sharp difference in timing of other Victory types.
Often enough, our hopes to get anything -but- CV are completely wasted on the "accelerated" properties of Tourism feed-loops. Frustrating -- sometimes.
I can see only a few indirect solutions to this conundrum...

1) Major or complete Sell-Out of our "Great Works" which prevents heavy stacking of Tourism at the source, but cuts culture output.
2) Keeping Great Artist/Musician/Writer(s) points as low as possible.. preventing influx of multiple GW.
3) Don't raise the multiplier factors by having "booster" Wonders (Eiffel Tower, Chichen Itza, etc) & Theaters (Museum, Broadcast Center, etc).
4) Avoid any culturally inclined Policy Cards.

5) Instead.. ultimately stack VERY high domestic value against every AI counter Tourism flow.. somewhat risky.

?) Indirect SQL hacking of many related parameters including some of those you listed above.

The real issues with CV can be tamed while & when the need arises in most gameplay conditions. Although the basic concern is rather influenced by ruleset & code mechanics tilting balance.

 

[Victoria]

The most common problem we all have with CV is the sharp difference in timing of other Victory types.

Is it that sharp? A science victory can be sub 200 still. If you want it to more match that you could merely make TOURISM_TOURISM_TO_MOVE_CITIZEN = 250.
You have to understand the fast times are by fast players, Firaxis set it at 200 for a reason i imagine.

Greece you can expect 200-300 culture per turn on deity which if you have bad rolls on your rock bands will take FOREVER to eat through passively.

A rock band per turn will only reduce that to 150-250 culture.
If there are all civs left and you are open borders/trading and they are on 300 CPT you need roughly 400 tourism to eat away 1 point per turn without extra cards if they are the same government. (with rock band/turn)

 

[Archon_Wing]

• Rock band (culture bomb) is civ specific and so you should be playing to the person with the highest culture output to reduce their domestic tourists.

So what does it actually do; reduce domestic tourists? I was wondering why you'd need to target someone if all foreign tourists are the same to you.

(And why not just kill them instead of bothering with Rock bands?)

 

[Victoria]

I was wondering why you'd need to target someone if all foreign tourists are the same to you.

They are not the same at all. If Greece has a higher culture output than everyone else that means they have more domestic tourists than anyone else. To win I need more foreign tourists that the civ with the highest domestic tourists (Greece)
If you look at the parameters at the top it means that every time I get a tourism from Greece their domestic tourists are reduced by 1. So sending rock bands, opening borders, being the same government as them, sometimes even being the same religion.... these will all help speed up your culture victory and starting this process at T190 is not the right idea, starting at T80 is... One must smile as you put the knife in.

(And why not just kill them instead of bothering with Rock bands?)

The moment you attack them everyone's borders close, not very healthy (reduces your tourism by around 20% in reality. Also they may be some distance away.

 

[Archon_Wing]

If you look at the parameters at the top it means that every time I get a tourism from Greece their domestic tourists are reduced by 1. So sending rick bands, opening borders, being the same government as them, sometimes even being the same religion.... these will all help speed up your culture victory and starting this process at T190 is not the right idea, starting at T80 is... One must smile as you put the knife in.

Ah so basically acting earlier will slow down their domestic tourists growth.

The moment you attack them everyone's borders close, not very healthy.

Well, speaking of Greece or similar, they'll often have like twice everyone else's domestic tourists really fast. By that time I will have had enough to win if Greece vanished, so I cared little about losing them.

Plus I find it easier to get away with warmongering these days if you find the right excuse....

 

[Victoria]

Ah so basically acting earlier will slow down their domestic tourists growth.

Plus I find it easier to get away with warmongering these days if you find the right excuse....

Just be aware peaceful CV's are faster than violent often once you are good at them. The reduction in that open borders and loss of a civ or 2 can be quite a delay and when others go to way with you no trade routes either. Of course reducing the cultural output of all civs to very little can work but that takes time and it is what I mean about the speed of a peaceful CV. A slow peaceful CV will always lose to a violent CV, but a fast peaceful CV will win.

I am not sure where these 300 CPT;s are quoted ... at what turn but even on deity I do not see figures that powerful by T100-150 by any imagination.

 

[Archon_Wing]

I often see Gorgo running around with a ton of culture even after denying her great writers. And you can't deny them all since they can get them so fast.... at least not with my ability. I know it's pretty easy to hit 150 culture per turn really fast as Greece even as human though.

But Russia could be worse. They just take the writers away.

 

[SteveJustSteve]

I just tried peaceful CV Eleanor last night and the one undiscovered civ that was on the other side of the map was Kongo. Holy balls. He won culture before I even had radio researched. I thought I was gonna roll once I started flipping Amanitore and China cities.

 

[Lily_Lancer]

Is it that sharp? A science victory can be sub 200 still.

Sub 150 actually.
Sub 100 if you make good use of pillage.
Sub XX if you use an Ottoman raider to raid Inca Tunnel. (That will give you infinite gold in one turn)

 

[Archon_Wing]

TY broken mechanics.

 

[Zyxpsilon]

Follow up on CV delay tricks..

Now that we have this sort of warning message (predicted exact turn), we can certainly react by handing/selling over stuff to Canada & Eleanor where the gaps get relatively better until no probable turn appears & less often.

 

[Victoria]

(predicted exact turn)

It does not work too well and often disappears

 

[Trav'ling Canuck]

Unchanged
TOURISM_CONFLICTING_GOVERNMENT_MULTIPLIER = 1
<snip>
TOURISM_CONFLICTING_GOVERNMENT_MULTIPLIER=3

Does the LUA actually specify two different values for this same parameter?

 

[Victoria]

Does the LUA actually specify two different values for this same parameter?

AH... good point... The value has been changed to 1 and so different governments has less effect
....
resorts seem a bit buggy also

 

[kb27787]

Is it that sharp? A science victory can be sub 200 still. If you want it to more match that you could merely make TOURISM_TOURISM_TO_MOVE_CITIZEN = 250.
You have to understand the fast times are by fast players, Firaxis set it at 200 for a reason i imagine.

A rock band per turn will only reduce that to 150-250 culture.
If there are all civs left and you are open borders/trading and they are on 300 CPT you need roughly 400 tourism to eat away 1 point per turn without extra cards if they are the same government. (with rock band/turn)

If I recall correctly the default 1000 tourism on wonders is roughly 1 tourist correct? (~100 domestic tourism) I presume at that point your rock bands will die 50% each performance except with +2 wonder promotions reduce that to 26%. 1 band/turn would be tough (need ~800-1000 faith/turn) except for the most insane faith outputs (Georgia can reach it in theory I imagine)

300 CPT is 3 tourists/turn... to get a net loss of 1 tourist/turn you need 5000 total adjusted tourism to everyone correct? (1250 x 4? correct me if I'm wrong)
With 400 tourism this looks a bit tough... 400 x 7 = 2800 so I guess this needs to be +78% or so (doable, with social media policy I imagine)...
Of course if we presume rock band an additional 1000 tourism/turn this reduces to 4000 so need +42% modifiers... OB and TR should do it. On paper this does not look so tough but in real games I scroll to the CV tab and find victory in something like 30+ turns... and usually that means I would miss the 200 turn mark by quite a bit. It's just clicking next turn without any real thing you can do to add tourism.

 

[Zyxpsilon]

It does not work too well and often disappears

Not from what i could analyze based on "immediate" variations of Tourism IN/OUTPUTS even when estimated.
It disappears simply because the winning condition isn't validated anymore by additional counts from both us & any given AI flow.

As soon as i dumped many Great Works on Laurier's 35/487 & Eleanor's 13/487 scoring stacks, my own 93 (-) / 149 (+) tilted just enough to discard the Win probability from the code engine (as it is defined within the LUA function and its subsequently cached/reset parameters). After a few more sell-out rides during the next decades (at least three times, IIRC).. i could push off CV many times over. It's the relative gaps of Domestic I/O stages that translate into invalid(ated) composite results for MY prospective triggering condition(s) which still changes every so often. Complex Maths yet proven effective when trying to escape CV with almost certainty.

 

[Victoria]

Not from what i could analyze based on "immediate" variations of Tourism IN/OUTPUTS even when estimated.
It disappears simply because the winning condition isn't validated anymore by additional counts from both us & any given AI flow.

It is early days but the reason why I said it was I was playing GOTM 57 last weekend and was at 10 turns away from victory and this is when I first noticed it. It then disappeared for 2 turns, I tried to get it back amd there was no way I was not going to win in the next few turns, maybe it was a local bug. (It was my first ever sub T100 CV)

 

[Victoria]

If I recall correctly the default 1000 tourism on wonders is roughly 1 tourist correct? (~100 domestic tourism) I

If you are playing a standard map then the game starts with 8 civilisations.
This means you need to apply 8*200=1600 tourism to a civ to get one foreign tourist off them which also reduces their domestic tourism by 1 point. That is the basics. I do not know if rock bands gain the open borders, trade route, different gov modifiers for this, it is not clear but I doubt it. I also doubt rock bands count as religious tourism even if you are buying bands with faith, so this modifier do not count. So we are only talking about every 1600 tourism you produce.

I used rock bands for the first time last night in an odd Sweden deity peaceful game where I only had 6 cities (won at about T250 playing poorly) Rock band tourism clearly only affects the civ you play at because there is a promotion that allows that tourism to affect every civ within 10 tiles. This means you should play your concerts at the civ with the highest domestic tourists because you will reduce only that civs domestic tourists with a rock band. (Of course if there is no +2 venues with them you may want to consider another civ). I made 4 rock bands and had some incredible luck with 2 concerts Of 3700 tourism.. roughly (will look it up in a while)

So if my rock band does 1800 tourism It gives me +1 tourism and also takes a domestic tourist off my competition therefore getting me 2 points closer to a culture victory. But if I play at a civ that does not have the highest domestic tourists I only get 1 point closer to my victory because their domestic value is not used to calculate my victory.

Now I do not know what the 1000 tourism wonder parameter does, I guess you get that as extra if you play at a wonder. (Will test when I get time)
So now I have clarified, does that make things clearer? If so can you report with clearer workings because I got lost with yours, definitely looks a little off-key.

With regards to insane faith, by about T240 last night I had 16000 faith through goddess of the harvest, so not as insane as you think.

EDIT: Here were the rock band results from last night... I just about fell off my seat when I got them. Anyone know anything solid about how these work? Promotions are based on album sales right?

Hmm it was late, looks like I did 8 rolls. Interesting how the range changes.