culture wonders

[Abremms]

hey, sorry if this seems like a stupid question, but I'v been all through the civilopedia and these forums and can't find a clear answer anywhere. How exactly do the culture wonders work? I', currently playing as the Greeks under Alexander. I picked up the Greek culture, and later noticed a newly conquered city could build the Roman culture. Does the Roman culture just effect that city? or does it supplant the greek culture I had first? or do I have both now? and I can also build the celtic culture, but will that overwrite the roman and/or greek cultures I already have? or do they just all add up so I have access to all the goodies?

I'd appreciate a simple answer, I know this is probably something everyone here on this forum knows backwards and forwards, but as far as I can tell, no one has ever put it down for newbies to read. Thanks.

 

[Nimek]

Cultures works as resources. It is shared via trade network with all cities. Each culture unlock special units buildings etc.

 

[Abremms]

so they aren't mutually exclusive then? thank you.

 

[Nimek]

No they exists all together

 

[Zain]

On another related note, I think there should be some way of limiting the amount of cultures you can build; it's a little silly how a single city can build several cultures. It's also easy to hoard cultures and subsequently the great persons related to them, which devalues the choice of National/Culture wonders built by the great persons (such as Romulus for Roman Culture) since you can eventually build all of them.

It would also be cool if cultures were limited to their corresponding civilization, or at least to a group of civilizations with somewhat mutual roots. It felt a little odd to be able to build the Holy Roman culture as Mongols.

 

[Nimek]

I agree Cultures should have native culture set as required.

I cant check it now but I elive it works now that way.

 

[DRJ]

The question is: if there would be a certain amount of players for it, could "limited cultures per city" as a game option be coded easily?

I would use it.

 

[strategyonly]

On another related note, I think there should be some way of limiting the amount of cultures you can build; it's a little silly how a single city can build several cultures. It's also easy to hoard cultures and subsequently the great persons related to them, which devalues the choice of National/Culture wonders built by the great persons (such as Romulus for Roman Culture) since you can eventually build all of them.

It would also be cool if cultures were limited to their corresponding civilization, or at least to a group of civilizations with somewhat mutual roots. It felt a little odd to be able to build the Holy Roman culture as Mongols.

I agree Cultures should have native culture set as required.

I cant check it now but I believe it works now that way.

The question is: if there would be a certain amount of players for it, could "limited cultures per city" as a game option be coded easily?

I would use it.

I think i'd have to disagree here guys.
For instance, in the USA, there are like 400 cultures living in it (immigration). So what i'd do is then KICK out the ones i dont like, just doesn't seem plausible. What then do you do in this case?

It would be (i am guessing) alot of coding to be done if you want Cultural mutual cultures alined to only those civilizations closest to them in value.

I dont know, i guess Hydro will have to do some thinking and thoughts on this, this is his area of expertise. . . SO

 

[MagnusIlluminus]

Well, yes, but with certain exceptions (the Native Americans, the culture called 'America', etc) all of the USA's cultures spread to there and none would be considered to be native, as the USA is (primarily) a nation of immigrants. This cannot happen in game as there is only one 'resource' of each culture per wonder. Unless the wonders could be tweaked to give one non-tradeable base resource that allows the unique units, and (x) tradeable ones that don't allow units (where x would vary based on map size). I suppose there is already a bit of this if one has Open Borders and just through culture spread.

I was under the impression that all of the actual Culture wonders did already require their corresponding Native Culture. For example, one could not build Roman in one only had the Asian NC.

 

[Thunderbrd]

We're currently awaiting a new 1D properties system from AIAndy so that we may convert the cultures to a spread and influence dynamic property mechanic in a way that won't carry the kind of processing impact that our current property systems do. This will have a huge effect on future plans to come where Cultures are concerned.

 

[DRJ]

I think i'd have to disagree here guys.
For instance, in the USA, there are like 400 cultures living in it (immigration).

My question about "limited cultures per city" was not if the other cultures of the empire were available in every city (I like that you can train a hero unit of a culture you built in a minor city in your main military city for example) but if you could be limited to build one culture wonder per city max.

So the main culture in that city would be fixed. You could build only one culture per city and this would lead to the situation that the techleader could not amass all cultures he unlocks earlier than the others asap. Maybe the fixed culture limited per city could be lifted with later techs that simulate immigration etc.

The brazilian/australian etc mixed cultures could be built in cities where the early cultures were built.

 

[Hydromancerx]

I think i'd have to disagree here guys.
For instance, in the USA, there are like 400 cultures living in it (immigration). So what i'd do is then KICK out the ones i dont like, just doesn't seem plausible. What then do you do in this case?

It would be (i am guessing) alot of coding to be done if you want Cultural mutual cultures alined to only those civilizations closest to them in value.

I dont know, i guess Hydro will have to do some thinking and thoughts on this, this is his area of expertise. . . SO

Well they are still limited to wonders. So if someone plays with Unlimited Wonders off then you will only have a limited number of cultures you can build because they have to complete for space with other World Wonders.

This is why I think the Unlimited Wonders options is WAY over powered for game balance. However if someone wants to play with it on then that's their choice. Just know that you could get a ton of cultures if you do.

Also the fact that herd buildings can give resources in the vicinity means there are that many more cultures you can get. Ex. Horse Herd can Unlock Mongolian Culture without a resource on the map nearby.

My question about "limited cultures per city" was not if the other cultures of the empire were available in every city (I like that you can train a hero unit of a culture you built in a minor city in your main military city for example) but if you could be limited to build one culture wonder per city max.

So the main culture in that city would be fixed. You could build only one culture per city and this would lead to the situation that the techleader could not amass all cultures he unlocks earlier than the others asap. Maybe the fixed culture limited per city could be lifted with later techs that simulate immigration etc.

The brazilian/australian etc mixed cultures could be built in cities where the early cultures were built.

We tried things similar to that in the beginning. Such as English + Oceanian = Australian. However it was extremely hard to get colonial cultures because you had to have English or French or Spanish or Portuguese for so many cultures.

Likewise we also had it where you could only build the units in the city that had the wonder. People did not like it very much either so it was changed to be spread via resources.

------

There could be a new option where a special Great Person could be made and it is required to build the wonder. All Culture wonders would be not buildable and would need to have this special great person to make it. Perhaps the great person could be given for free at Cultural Identity.

However I am unsure how one would make that an optional setting while keeping the existing implementation.

 

[Thunderbrd]

There could be a new option where a special Great Person could be made and it is required to build the wonder. All Culture wonders would be not buildable and would need to have this special great person to make it. Perhaps the great person could be given for free at Cultural Identity.

However I am unsure how one would make that an optional setting while keeping the existing implementation.

Now THAT could make the Great Artist worthwhile to reach for! We'll have to think more on that down the road I think.

 

[Hydromancerx]

Now THAT could make the Great Artist worthwhile to reach for! We'll have to think more on that down the road I think.

Yeah I was thinking the same thing about the Great Artist.

To implement the Great Artist would have to be given all the Culture wonders and then the existing ones would have to have their cost set to -1 so they can't be built.

 

[strategyonly]

Yeah I was thinking the same thing about the Great Artist.

To implement the Great Artist would have to be given all the Culture wonders and then the existing ones would have to have their cost set to -1 so they can't be built.

Why is that?

 

[Thunderbrd]

Why is that?

To make it so that ONLY the GA can initiate the culture.

But we'd still have to have some interesting prereqs for building them... The more I think about it, the more I'm beginning to think: Work it out similar to Divine Prophets but with more prereqs for initiating the culture - make the cultures work more like religions, including the spread mechanics which could be furthered by StoryTeller units. But I figure by then we may already have the 1D Property mechanism and that may make us want to change the mechanism all over again so I'd hold off on such a major overhaul, even if it would be optional.

Hydro, if you want an option for simply having Artists required to build the initial Culture Wonders, I could setup the option and hand over to you the task to add those buildings to the Artist, conditional on the option, and change the definition on the buildings (cost to -1) conditional on the option (that'll be possible once I've expanded AIAndy's Option Edits method to encompass more classes - including buildings. Replacing the Artist's definition under the option would be the trick on that end and I think we have the Option Edits for units already.)

That option alone could be cool

 

[DRJ]

Its hard to get a great artist for the early cultures and when you finally birth one and build early cultures their units might be already outdated. While I agree to the fact that Great Persons should be able to start cultures, there should be a lot of possibilities, Example: although the Mongol culture might be originated of the Art of Riding, we could agree that a Great General might be a good founder of it as well, right?

Maybe the early cultures could have other requirements (like neanderthal culture might need a neanderthal captive, to found it). Early American, African Cultures could need a subdued animal of the region (beaver or lion etc), Aztecs could need like 3 military captives and so on...

Also I think as long as the recent suggestion of CypressC is taken account of (multiple cultures will set up the rev level, especially as long as they are founded in the same city (better call it province maybe) as another culture), I gladly withdraw my earlier suggestion that 1 culture per city shall be max as gameoption.

 

[Hydromancerx]

Hydro, if you want an option for simply having Artists required to build the initial Culture Wonders, I could setup the option and hand over to you the task to add those buildings to the Artist, conditional on the option, and change the definition on the buildings (cost to -1) conditional on the option (that'll be possible once I've expanded AIAndy's Option Edits method to encompass more classes - including buildings. Replacing the Artist's definition under the option would be the trick on that end and I think we have the Option Edits for units already.)

That option alone could be cool

Sure but how do add building options to units? I have never done that before.

Could you set up the files for a test one like for the Neanderthal Culture (BUILDINGCLASS_NEANDERTHAL_EMBASSY) and then I can fill in the rest.

I am not sure how optional setting work. If they get their own mod folder or they just get an additional file in the same mod folder or if it edits the files that have the original info.

Please point me in the right direction on how its done.

Its hard to get a great artist for the early cultures and when you finally birth one and build early cultures their units might be already outdated. While I agree to the fact that Great Persons should be able to start cultures, there should be a lot of possibilities, Example: although the Mongol culture might be originated of the Art of Riding, we could agree that a Great General might be a good founder of it as well, right?

Maybe the early cultures could have other requirements (like neanderthal culture might need a neanderthal captive, to found it). Early American, African Cultures could need a subdued animal of the region (beaver or lion etc), Aztecs could need like 3 military captives and so on...

Also I think as long as the recent suggestion of CypressC is taken account of (multiple cultures will set up the rev level, especially as long as they are founded in the same city (better call it province maybe) as another culture), I gladly withdraw my earlier suggestion that 1 culture per city shall be max as gameoption.

I agree the early ones are hard to get which is why I was recommending that at Cultural Identity tech you get a free Great Artist. We may even want to just give one at the start of the game so every civ can at least get one culture.

 

[DRJ]

I agree the early ones are hard to get which is why I was recommending that at Cultural Identity tech you get a free Great Artist. We may even want to just give one at the start of the game so every civ can at least get one culture.

A few short questions (my longer post got flushed into the nirvana of the web stupid login &%$§)

Can it be easily made that instead of a great Artist a for each Culture specific unit or even a certain number of units must be comitted to the place the culture can be founded in as long as res and tech requirements are met?

Can it be easily made that the ability to settle GP only comes with certain tech (Artists can settle in cities after Music for example) to prevent AI to misuse GP in the early stages when they would not breed enough fluently to meet the windows of opportunity.

Can it be easily made that cultures would be advancing/"upgradeable" much like building pormotions (if that can be merged), for example: train a certain number of specific units or build enough specific buildings of a certain type - much like inherent quests


Can it be easily made
(ok, ok I stop that nothing of this can be easily made I guess)
that the success of a culture can be measured by certain patterns of the stats?
Also if recent main pray (- the most killed unit) for example are rabitts and bears then you receive a bonus vs the two, as your people know how to deal with them. So the actual strength of the units would change over time. Or you even could get morale drops if you suicide some units too often... why you would have to change your tactis from time to time.

 

[Koshling]

I agree the early ones are hard to get which is why I was recommending that at Cultural Identity tech you get a free Great Artist. We may even want to just give one at the start of the game so every civ can at least get one culture.

I'm not sure about giving a regular GA that early. The problem is unintended consequences that might arise from using it for purposes other than building a culture (instant wonder, culture bomb, Golden Age). I think I would be better to have a new great person that can ONLY build cultures given away at Cultural Identity, but ALSO have the existing GPs able to build cultures (potentially all of them, but not all the same set of cultures - so GAs maybe most, GGs a few, etc.)