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Culture

Discussion in 'Communitas Expansion Pack' started by Thalassicus, Jul 31, 2013.

  1. griffer13524

    griffer13524 Chieftain

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    That's definitely true--but the golden age ability seems weak, or at least, not special compared to the abilities of the writer and musician, which are both more directly tailored to advancing a player's cultural goals, even if you don't use them to make great works. Again, I'm not sure what to replace it with--it probably is the best option, even if it's not all that exciting.

    As for banking GP--that should always be an option, but I shouldn't have to consistently bank my great people because they have no use for me at a given time, at no fault of my own. Then it's not good strategy, or an unfortunate result from poor choices (both of which are fine)--it's poor game design. Wonders are always going to feel a bit "lucky" depending on what strategies the AI is pursing. If I miss the Sistine Chapel, then what? That's the problem--artists are reliant on wonders until archaeology, which comes comparatively late.

    I think it would be nice for some buildings and wonders to have slots that could fit various kinds of great works--or allow buildings to house "mismatched" great works at a cost. One could put a great work of art in a theater for example--but have it's output reduced by 50%. Or, maybe a better choice, give temples a slot for great works of art or music. Religion was the repository for many great works in early ages--it would be a logical place to add slots.
     
  2. JohnS

    JohnS Chieftain

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    I agree that I often have to save artists a little too long - what if we gave the palace two GW slots? Possibly with a theming bonus, those can get very rare when many civs compete for the wonders.

    If we wanted to introduce more flexibility, what about giving written GW's and music GW's the ability to be put in the same sort of slot, like how arts and archeological artifacts can already be? So we'd have "Display" slots for arts and artifacts and "Performance" slots for writing and music.

    Incidentally, is there no way of trading musical great works? Any particular design reason for that?
     
  3. griffer13524

    griffer13524 Chieftain

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    That's built into BNW Vanilla already, actually. But it's not done in the diplomacy screen--it's in it's own separate tab in the culture UI, which I think is a bit strange as well.
     
  4. mystikx21

    mystikx21 Deity

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    The UI for trading works is a little unwieldy, agreed. Should be able to sort by things like "themed/unthemed" or per era more easily.
     
  5. Gothic_Empire

    Gothic_Empire AKA, Ramen Empire

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    If ampitheatres and opera houses were not dependent upon one another to exist, I would be such a happy monkey. The relationship between dependent buildings has only ever existed to make culture more expensive. I'd rather the extra cost just be built into the buildings directly, or else have the costs increase geometrically per building.

    Generating great artists and the other culture GP is completely independent of how they're used. You have to bend your entire society into preparing for their births! (Sixteen turns from a great writer! QUICK! BUILD THE HEROIC EPIC! EVERYONE, BARRAAACKS!) It's a little strange. In reality, these sites kind of exist because of the great people, and not the other way around. I don't think we need to reflect that in game, and I'll admit that, while absurd, readying a site for a great work can be fun. So I'm not sure how much more of a criticism of BNW this is than a comment.
     
  6. Thalassicus

    Thalassicus Bytes and Nibblers

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    I agree there's lots of ways to make culture buildings useful. I actually think theaters are mostly okay with the costume-related resource bonuses. I'm sure we can figure out an interesting bonus for opera houses too.

    I think jacktannery understands what I'm talking about regarding border expansion. It should get harder and harder to expand our borders to distant tiles. My thinking is a monument might expand our city to the 2nd ring, but it shouldn't go much further unless we invest more, with culture buildings or something else. The theater might give us another 5 tiles, opera house another 10, museum 15, and so on. Each building gives a rising reward to match its cost. I accomplished this in Gem by making culture income and costs both go up exponentially. There might be other ways to do it.

    This sounds like a good plan to me. :)

    I'd also be okay with removing the strict requirements between culture buildings in the line.


    @Ahriman
    Summer palaces are not really important. I added them to make it more challenging to get golden ages, because lots of starting happiness gives us free golden ages without doing anything.
     
  7. JohnS

    JohnS Chieftain

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    Yea, I know this, but that interface only allows trading Writing, Art and Artifacts, as far as I can see.
     
  8. mystikx21

    mystikx21 Deity

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    Border expansion never struck me as a critical or crucial component of why I was getting culture in GEM. I wanted culture for social policies. Expanding borders was achieved in numerous ways instead of buildings (Kremlin wonder, social policies, excess gold for buying up critical tiles).

    Since I now want culture for tourism purposes, I still don't see the importance of the border popping as a critical problem. It would seem like it would be easier to approach the balance and interest of the other buildings by first investigating if they are useful at generating sufficient culture and tourism for the cost.

    If the problem is border popping, then adjust the formula for that, or adjust the tradition policy that makes it very easy. Making it costly in culture/gold terms to expand at higher levels for borders is one way to encourage greater cultural generation in a city.

    (Also, wasn't the culture from city states in GEM spread out among cities, and then to be impacted by multipliers?)
     
  9. Stalker0

    Stalker0 Baller Magnus

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    I think the GA is just fine, its a solid and useful bonus for a lot of areas, including more culture! So if you are banking artists because you don't like GAs, thats your playstyle and a perfectly valid way to play....but it doesn't mean we need an adjustment in how the game plays.
     
  10. Ahriman

    Ahriman Tyrant

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    Buildings don't give tiles, they give culture per turn. 2 culture per turn for 20 turns is the same as 4 culture per turn for 10 turns. So we can't really think about how many tiles you get from a building, we think about how long it takes to get an additional tile.

    I also don't think that it should require every culture building to get enough tiles for a decent sized city to be able to work them.

    I don't really find this to be the case. Tradition does nothing outside the capital, and then your first 4 cities (though the free building). But it takes a very very long time to get beyond the second ring with just +2 culture per turn from a monument.

    I also think that tile acquisition should basically be an early game and midgame mechanic. By the late game, except in remote or unsettled areas, most tiles should be claimed, borders should be pressing up against each other, and we should be starting to get a buffer of national waters even out into the ocean. In the late game culture is for more social policies/tenets and defense against tourism.

    But like I said, I'm fine with something like this:

    as long as the opera bonus is not too high (eg maybe 1 culture base +1 culture per ~6 pop).

    So I don't think that problem 1 is really a problem at all. I think it would be ok to have a slightly steeper gradient of tile acquisition costs than in vanilla, but I think the current version of BNW has them too cheap to start with and too expensive later on; the gradient is too steep.

    * * *
    Agreed.
     
  11. Stalker0

    Stalker0 Baller Magnus

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    The question is...how important are those extra culture buildings WITHOUT the tradition opener?

    If the tradition opener makes border expansion easy....well isn't that the point of the policy?
     
  12. mystikx21

    mystikx21 Deity

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    @Ahriman, BNW tradition opener also reduces tile expansion costs in culture. (there's also Angkor Wat that does this in vanilla).
     
  13. Thalassicus

    Thalassicus Bytes and Nibblers

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    How about we add specialist slots to the opera house? We could merge it with the musician's guild. The "guild" buildings are a little strange. We can't effectively produce great people in multiple cities at once, so does limiting specialists to one city accomplish anything?

    The tradition opener more than doubles border expansion rate in all cities. It's such a big effect it outweighs all other expansion bonuses.

    Each culture building in Gem gave a linear amount of culture, while the next building gave exponentially more, and costs also rose exponentially. This means each building gave a specific number of tiles like 5 monument, 10 amphitheater, and so on (though not those exact numbers). This is due to how exponential curves run away from linear plots so fast the line can't catch up.
     
  14. Stalker0

    Stalker0 Baller Magnus

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    And if we need to adjust it we can. I just want to set the right bar. I don't want decisions made to change culture buildings because one policy makes culture buildings unneeded for border expansion.
     
  15. Thalassicus

    Thalassicus Bytes and Nibblers

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    I agree completely; I plan to move the border expansion bonus deeper in the tradition tree like in Gem. It's an incredibly powerful effect to have on an opener.
     
  16. EricB

    EricB Prince

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    I really like that idea of putting a great work of art slot on the temple. The temple is a little underwhelming at the moment. This would give you a place to put a great artist and also give you a reason to build a temple in the first place. Just 1 slot, not 2.
     
  17. mystikx21

    mystikx21 Deity

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    You can effectively create writers/artists/musicians in different cities at once. They all have independent creation rates and costs from other great people so far as I can tell. There are advantages to stuffing the guild buildings into the national epic city of course, with a garden. But that just requires building the three buildings in the same place for max impact. And has no impact on the value of opera houses. I could see giving them a musician point, or extra culture (preferred), but not a slot for a specialist.

    I wouldn't really see getting rid of the national guild buildings. We already have that problem on our hands with the caravansarei and the spy buildings. They seem fine for what they do (generate GPs).
     
  18. Ahriman

    Ahriman Tyrant

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    Limiting the artist specialist production to one city per civ accomplishes a lot. Basically, it caps out your production of great works/tourism at an empire level rather than at a city level. This is a very important part of balancing how tourism victories worked. If I could start getting artist specialists everywhere, then I could start building up huge amounts of tourism very early, and a wide/tourism victory would be too easy.

    So no, no extra specialist slot on opera house please. The guilds design works well.

    This still doesn't make sense to me. You can't say a building gives a specific number of tiles, you can only say it gives a specific number of tiles *in a specific number of turns*. Even a basic monument would eventually give you all the tiles, if you waited for 1,000+ turns.

    And given how tourism works, I don't think we want this kind of exponential growth in GEM. I think they spent quite a bit of effort tuning tourism and culture availability in designing BNW, I really think we should try to stick to their system since basically it works and we haven't really identified any obvious problems in it.

    Ah ok, I'd forgotten about that effect, yes moving it to finisher is fine.
    I think the effect is also less powerful than it was in GEM though, GEM halved tile acquisition costs at one stage IIRC? I remember it as being too strong, that Tradition empires were getting way too many tiles.

    The one thing I am confused about is that it looks like at least gold tile acquisition costs work on an empire basis? So purchasing some tiles in one city increases the cost in other cities too?
     
  19. Thalassicus

    Thalassicus Bytes and Nibblers

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    The new great people don't share a great person creation pool with the others? I didn't know that! So creating some in one city doesn't affect other cities... hmm... very interesting! I see now why people talk about building them in different cities. How did you learn this? That gives me a lot to think about... :think:
     
  20. mystikx21

    mystikx21 Deity

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    It should. :) It definitely did when I first played. And really made keeping track of the "next GP" complicated with the lack of any interface in vanilla for it...
     

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