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Culture

Discussion in 'Communitas Expansion Pack' started by Thalassicus, Jul 31, 2013.

  1. Ahriman

    Ahriman Tyrant

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    Maybe.... but I would put more money on the "Ahriman was blind and just missed noticing the option" theory.

    Thanks for checking.
     
  2. lockstep

    lockstep Prince

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    As the culture buildings (with the exception of the monument) contain different GW slots in BNW, it seems only logical to remove the chain of prerequisites. IMO, it would be intuitive if the later buildings required either a monument or no building at all. However, in CEG 3.4.2, the opera house, the museum, and the broadcast tower require no earlier culture building at all, while the theater requires a monument. Did I skip the reasoning for this special prerequisite, or is this simply a (small) bug?

    To me, it's also counter-intuitive that the Opera House has (as the only culture building) zero maintenance costs.
     
  3. lockstep

    lockstep Prince

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    It seems that there are some changes (compared to unmodded BNW) present in CEG 3.4.2 that aren't documented in the CEG History. Unmodded BNW:

    • Monument: +2 Culture;
    • (Amphi)theater, Opera House, Museum: +1 Culture, 1-2 GW slots;
    • Broadcast Tower: +1 Culture, +33% Culture, 1 GW slot.

    CEG 3.4.2 changes the flat culture production to +2 for the Theater and the Broadcast Tower and adds bonuses from various luxury resources to the Theater. What's the reasoning for these changes, especially the +2 for some, but not all of the post-monument buildings? (If we increased the flat culture for either all or none of them, Opera Houses wouldn't look so bad anymore.)
     
  4. ExpiredReign

    ExpiredReign Deity

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    @lockstep

    As to the undocumented changes in the Ceg History. Well I can only surmise some of the GEM changes were just brought in and left as is. As I say though, that is just supposition and unfortunately, for all of us, the documentation has been a bit of an afterthought. By the way, the documentation on the wiki doesn't have to be done by only the modders, anyone can keep an eye on it and keep it up-to-date.

    The changes to some of the :c5culture: buildings and not others. Hmm, the code shows them all at one time getting the +2:c5culture: then at some point the Museum and Opera House were commented out, returning them to vanilla. Perhaps Thal can shed some light on that one.
     
  5. lockstep

    lockstep Prince

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    @ExpiredReign: thanks for looking into this. Regarding the fact that "some of the GEM changes were just brought in and left as is", this approach seems fitting for subject areas that weren't affected (much) by BNW (like the tweaks to Water Mills, Gardens, and Observatories), but less appropriate for the culture buildings that gained Great Work slots, but lost most of their flat culture production. I also haven't been able to find discussions about how the CEG changes (higher "free" culture production in your first cities, more culture from buildings, but still +2/+2 culture/tourism from Great Works) affect the new culture victory.

    Perhaps the post-monument culture buildings should be simply left as they are in unmodded BNW for now (but with their prerequisites removed, which *is* a well-argued change).
     
  6. mystikx21

    mystikx21 Deity

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    I was pretty sure the culture changes, at least some of them were documented at some point during the changes.

    I'd think the theater could be reduced (to 1+resources+GW slot) and the opera house increased to +2 (with 1 upkeep and the GM slot and no tiering) and that would be about right.

    I'd also agree with removing the theater as tiered from monuments.

    More culture from buildings in general spawned the whole thread, and nearly caused a "riot" over attempts to increase tourism significantly to compensate (unnecessarily by merging opera houses and the guild buildings). That's why there's more culture on some buildings and not others. Those changes are fairly modest, and can be compensated for somewhat with a religious belief that boosts tourism and faith from wonders. I don't find they make culture wins that much harder.

    I can't speak to the newest changes yet however. I haven't had time to fully test it.
     
  7. lockstep

    lockstep Prince

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    @mystikx21: The patch notes I quoted were from CEG 3.2.1. I didn't find anything about flat culture from buildings. And true, "those changes are fairly modest", but to me they also seem somewhat haphazard (which is in stark contrast to most of CEG).
     
  8. mystikx21

    mystikx21 Deity

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    I'm not saying I found them agreeable and balanced. But you asked if they affect the culture victory, and there was discussion over that point concerning small shifts in culture on buildings. I don't think it does alter it substantially, and the question then becomes how to balance the buildings within the now non-existent line of culture buildings.

    I gather the palaces/city halls from GEM have returned now however, and those do strike me at least as more haphazard and unnecessary, and are adding more culture, especially early. I don't get the rationale there, other than to spread out the palace yields in some way other than per-player bonuses?
     
  9. lockstep

    lockstep Prince

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    Good suggestions. I'd try to stay somewhat closer to unmodded BNW (changes in italics):

    • Monument: +2 culture;
    • Theater: +1 culture, +1 culture per Silk/Cotton/Furs/Dye, 1 GW of writing slot;
    • Opera House: +1 culture, +1 culture per 6 pop, 1 GW of music slot;
    • Museum: +1 culture, 2 GW of art slots (theming bonus possible);
    • Broadcast Tower: +1 culture, +33% culture, 1 GW of music slot;
    • all maintenance costs unchanged;
    • all building prerequisites removed (alternatively: all post-Monument culture buildings require Monument).

    I was about to ask the same question -- my earlier remark about "higher 'free' culture production in your first cities" referred to palaces. EDIT: I started a new thread.
     
  10. mystikx21

    mystikx21 Deity

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    Right, I think the building changes haven't come back around on this topic because

    - economic changes to buildings largely haven't come up yet as a major topic. I think most of the economic effects in BNW are improvements that work okay as is without much tinkering. There were balance concerns with particular buildings, like mills and stables and the like, that could be done quickly and without much debate, and mostly were already implemented. The major stuff will require some more debate. That's why the palace buildings stand out, as there hasn't been much public discussion about the need for them or what problem they potentially solve, and if there aren't better approaches for it.

    As a related balance concern, I'd point to the significantly reduced economic value of internal city connections as something that doesn't seem well thought out in light of changes in BNW's economy and is a significant change. It's easy to fix for me, but I don't think it is in a good spot for everyone else or the AI. Between the reduced cost of harbors, and the reduced value of city connections, roads are pretty crippled.

    - Culture per pop sounds like something we needed some additional yield tools active for anyway, and those have only started to get re-activated because they might have been buggy post-patching/expansion. It's probably the best fix for the opera house. The better short-term fix would be to swap it up to a higher raw culture figure and leave it as having upkeep, but it isn't a terrible fix to make the game playable with minimal change in the meantime to do as is and move on to other things.

    - The change was modest and small. I'd be fine with something like what you have outlined there. Mostly because the changes are modest and small to a system that generally works pretty well, and if it were altered significantly would impact other game mechanics like tourism rather than simply culture building balance. That proposal targets the specific building that isn't working particularly well in vanilla (the opera house) with some bonuses rather than a cost reduction. Bonuses are more fun, and more strategically applied than making something cost less in order to make it more valuable.
     
  11. lockstep

    lockstep Prince

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    (Moved from a post in the bug tracking subforum)

    The Greek Odeon (Theater replacement) does not require a Monument (unlike the Theater, but like the post-Theater culture buildings). I suggest that either the prerequisites are completely removed (i.e., no Monument required for the Theater), or that all post-Monument culture buildings require a Monument (because it can be regarded as a cheap, "general-purpose" culture building). I'm leaning towards the latter option.
     
  12. Thalassicus

    Thalassicus Bytes and Nibblers

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    I'm okay with removing the link between monuments and theaters. Most cities will build a monument before a theater anyway. :)

    Early buildings are broadly useful in most cities, while late buildings are narrowly specialized for a few cities.

    The high base culture of the monument and theater is useful everywhere for policies and border expansion. The opera house, museum, and broadcast tower focus on the more specialized role of tourism victories. Opera Houses are only useful for the rare great works of music. The AI builds too many, because it's coded poorly, so the lower maintenance helps AIs. I mentioned it earlier:

    @mystikx21
    National yield bonuses require the fully reactivated yield library, which I plan on doing later. That will replace the current spread-out capital bonuses.

    @lockstep
    Culture per population requires the full yield library. It also would cause two problems: it would make opera houses a broadly useful building (late buildings should have narrow value), and focus culture generation more on tall empires (all playstyles should have equal policy rate).
     
  13. mystikx21

    mystikx21 Deity

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    I actually think this is fine if taller empires have a higher cultural policy rate via per population bonuses. Wide empires have advantages for cultural victories already by virtue of accumulating more GW slots and thereby tourism sources. That balance is more important to me than whether wide empires can get policies at the same speed as tall ones. Tall probably should get them faster without significant investment in culture by wide (and the liberty tree). Wide empires would also still have incentives to construct some opera houses simply because they will have some larger core cities that would benefit and because they have GW slots that can be filled.

    I don't find great works of music to be that rare so much as that it can be better to use musicians as tourism offensives later in the game. When using aesthetics, garden/Nat Epic, freedom, and possibly WC votes, they're pretty easy to rack up several. The guild building also provides a higher free GP point count than the other two, so again, more common.
     
  14. lockstep

    lockstep Prince

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    Perhaps late buildings should have value in special circumstances. Opera Houses with low base culture plus some culture per pop would be valuable for huge cities.
     
  15. jwerano

    jwerano Wonderstacker

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    I've got to agree with the above 2 posts. Nothing wrong with tall empires benefiting a bit more from opera house due to a per population bonus. Wide empires also have the benefit of being more resistant to AI tourism victories due to greater net culture from cheaply produced monuments and theaters in all the extra cities. Tall empires have no answer to this as far as I can see.
     
  16. lockstep

    lockstep Prince

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    The Theater doesn't feature a high base culture in unmodded BNW, only in CEG. Therefore I'd like to know why you buffed Theaters (i.e., deemed a second general-purpose culture building necessary), but don't want to make Opera Houses useful for, say, huge cities.

    If the AI is really coded poorly with regard to specialized culture buildings, I'd like to modify my former suggestion for building prerequisites: Please make all post-Monument culture buildings require a Monument. This way, the AI will at least be forced to build the most useful building before wasting hammers on, say, Opera Houses. ;)
     
  17. Thalassicus

    Thalassicus Bytes and Nibblers

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    I added culture to the opera house before, but people didn't like it because it was harder to get tourism victories.

    I think the best way to help tall empires get tourism is put 2 GW slots and a theme bonus on each national wonder. Giving tall empires more policies won't directly help them get tourism... there's not many tourism policies.
     
  18. Ahriman

    Ahriman Tyrant

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    That seems like much too much. There are a lot of national wonders, so this would be too many slots, and it would also serve to devalue the handful of world wonders that actually do give theming bonuses. You could add 1 slot to a number of national wonders to give more overall slots, but I don't think they should have 2 slots and theme bonuses.

    Tall empires advantage for tourism is from tech progress (faster access to the techs that give archeologists, hotels, airports, etc.) and greater ability to snag wonders and greater ability to really pile up wonders and culture in a city with a lot of tourism modifiers (from buildings, world religions, etc.). Also greater ability to pile up specialists in cities with GPP bonuses, and to get more great person improvements (which can get culture and hence tourism).

    Wide's only advantage is more slots because of more copies of the buildings. If you give huge numbers of slots to Tall, then tall is unambiguously better.
     
  19. mystikx21

    mystikx21 Deity

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    Agreed. More culture on opera houses via a population effect could be balanced against CEP adding a tourism source in religious beliefs (for wonders). I don't think it should add much to the cost. I think the present solution is a half measure that works for now in the absence of better options being available, but free opera houses is quite lame as well. I don't think there was a broad concern that opera houses would be a huge imbalance or that you are otherwise misinterpreting the fears of balance regarding tourism versus adding culture (incidentally you could remove some sources as well by tweaking the theater for example).

    The point on tall-wide policies was separate from tall-wide tourism wins. Acquiring policies improves the empire in many ways, including possibly tourism. And while wide can make up the gap, it should require considerable investment in culture to do so. Tall should have the advantage there. Acquiring sources of tourism however is largely a tall thing (wonders and tech) that wide must overcome by aggressive use of slots (mostly from archaeology) or by attacking and conquering major culture centers. It isn't the same concern as whether wide gets enough culture.
     
  20. Ahriman

    Ahriman Tyrant

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    I am concerned overall that we're adding too much to culture income without balancing it with extra tourism, and I don't think that a religious belief that gives tourism from wonders is enough to balance that, but I had some proposals for the Aesthetics tree that increase tourism from great works which I think would be enough to balance.
     

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