Curious - why no Sikhs in Civ4?

Discussion in 'Civ4 - General Discussions' started by Jas, Oct 23, 2007.

  1. Wodan

    Wodan Deity

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    When Christianity is founded before Judaism in a game of Civ, the people on that world feel that God's plan is unfolding just fine.

    I imagine their version of Romans 11 is different from ours. :king:

    Wodan
     
  2. nzcamel

    nzcamel Nahtanoj the Magnificent

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    Well said ;)
     
  3. Huayna Capac357

    Huayna Capac357 Deity

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    Christianity isn't an offshoot of Judaism! Jesus in fact refutes all of the Jewish dietary, moral, etc. laws. Judaism is only open to you if you follow the EXACT rules. Christianity is open to everyone. All one has to do is repent. Jesus doesn't care if you eat lizards or pigs or weasels, etc.
     
  4. Rotty

    Rotty Chieftain

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    Of course that can't actually happen without "choose religions".
    Starting with Mysticism + Mining, can you found them on the same turn? Poly -> Masonry -> Priesthood -> Writing -> Mono while making sure a Prophet pops before Mono finishes to found Christianity on the same turn, without an AI beating you to Judaism? Probably need to add Bronze Working to start running a priest soon enough... should work with Gandhi with a gem mine in the capital. Heck, then start Monarchy and time the Oracle to finish on the same turn it's done, pick Divine Right, and go for cultural victory on the 4 marble and stone cathedral religions you founded. Nevermind the lack of farms or cottages up to this point. :lol:
     
  5. OttoManD

    OttoManD Prince

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    My understanding is that Muslim theologians see the Quran as the last revelation of Allah, and that Allah is the same God that the Testaments refer to.
    So in that sense there is a direct continuity between the three faiths. This is partly why the Islamic Shari'a law remains in many countries. The Quran was God's third revelation to mankind, and is viewed as final and inalterable.
    I don't know whether Christianity views itself as an offshoot of Judaism, but Islam sees itself as God's final draft of the first two.
     
  6. nzcamel

    nzcamel Nahtanoj the Magnificent

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    Yes, and no. Try this on for size:

    The Fulfillment of the Law

    Mt 5:17 “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. [My emphasis]
    Mt 5:18 I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished.
    [-Jesus]
    The bible; Matthew 5:17-18

    Now you sound like you know a thing or two about Christianity. And I agree that Christians aren't bound by the Old Testament Law. But Jesus didn't refute it. He provided a different superior way.
    Yes I'm not Jewish, and I can eat anything I want including pigs. But that doesn't change the fact that God intended Christianity to be the offshoot of Judaism. I know that the offshoot is bigger than the original plant!
    Read Romans 11 and then tell me what you think.
     
  7. nzcamel

    nzcamel Nahtanoj the Magnificent

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    If it was the 'final and inalterable' version, why can't it handle being challenged? If it's superior to Christianity and Judaism, why is it illegal under that same Shari'a law for people to convert from Islam to another religion? Why in my country are we allowed to believe what we want to believe, and yet in the countries that uphold Shari'a law life is not strongly protected if one is not a muslim?
    Why from the birth of Islam has it converted by force? This happened during Muhammads day. In the Quran, in Muhammads own words:

    'Kill the Mushrikun [pagans] wherever you find them, and capture them and besiege them, and lie in wait for them in each and every ambush.'
    -Surah 9:5

    'Fight against those who believe not in Allah, nor in the last day, nor forbid that which has been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger [Muhammad] and those who acknowledge not the religion of truth among the people of the Scripture [Jews and Christians], until they pay the Jizyah [tax] with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.
    -Surah 9:29

    And it has carried on that way ever since.

    I know many people who call themselves Christians have done similar things. But it was hypocrisy. You won't find a single verse in the new testament advocating that Christians forcefully convert or kill to advance the cause of Christianity. Not one.

    Tell me, OttoManD, of a verse in the Jewish Scriptures that talks of Muhammad? Just be prepared for me to counter that the verse you think relates to Islam, doesn't.
    How does your beliefs tie to the Jews, or to mine. The Jews are waiting for their Messiah [Saviour/Christ.] I believe he came already. And that is the main difference between my faith and the Jewish faith.

    It can be hard at times to see where Judaism ends and Christianity starts they are so close in terms of their theology.
    There's a major theme called atonement that runs throughout the bible. To the Jews it's the sacrificing of animals which pays for their sins; to me it's the one time sacrifice of Jesus's life which pays for my sin. The common factor to both is that a substitute takes our place and dies in our stead.

    But there is no atonement in Islam is there...You and you alone will reap the reward or suffer the punishment for your actions during your life. Your religion has very little to do with mine. Your God Allah is not my God.
     
  8. OttoManD

    OttoManD Prince

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    That was a masterful use of selective quotation, nzcamel. If you look at Surah 9 once more, you may notice that 9:5 is bracketed between
    9:4 "(But the treaties are) not dissolved with those Pagans with whom you have entered into alliance and who have not subsequently failed you in anything, nor aided any one against you. So fulfill your engagements with them to the end of their term, for Allah loves the righteous."

    and
    9:6 "If one amongst the Pagans ask you for asylum, grant it to him, so that he may hear the Word of Allah; and then escort him to where he can be secure. This is because they are men without knowledge."

    Also, if you add in the rest of 9:5, picking up where your quote ends, "but if they repent, and establish regular prayers and practice regular charity, then open the way for them, for Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful."

    As to 9:29, I believe it will be more entertaining if I respond in kind with a selective Bible quote.
    Matthew 10:34"Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword. 10:35 For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law."

    You begin your post by asking "why can't it handle being challenged? If it's superior to Christianity and Judaism, why is it illegal under that same Shari'a law for people to convert from Islam to another religion?"

    I would like to refer you to an excellent Wikipedia article http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thirty_Years_War
    Among the highlights of Christianity's acceptance of religious challenges are
    "...in some areas an estimated two-thirds of the population died. Germany’s male population was reduced by almost half. The population of the Czech lands declined by a third. The Swedish armies alone destroyed 2,000 castles, 18,000 villages and 1,500 towns in Germany, one-third of all German towns."

    Though the Thirty Years War certainly wasn't just about the Protestant-Catholic split, that was certainly the largest contributing factor.

    Also associated with the Reformation are episodes of Protestant-Catholic fighting 1524-25 ended by the Diet of Speyer, 1546-55 ended by the Treaty of Augsburg, 1529-31 in Switzerland, 1562-98 in France (famous for the St. Bartholomew's Day Massacre of Protestants), 1560-1567 in Scotland, and I think we can safely add the Spanish Inquisition, blood libels, thousands of pogroms against Jews over centuries and the Crusades into Christianity's famously pacific nature.

    The point I'm trying to make isn't that Christianity religion is inherently warlike, but that people invested with religious authority in all religions have a tendency to use their respective scriptures for political and military ends.

    Now of course there isn't a verse in the Jewish Scriptures which Jewish people feel relates to Muhammad, but that wasn't my point. I was simply stating what Muslim theologians believe, not what Jewish or Christian theologians do. The main difference is that Muslims believe that the Prophets of the Jewish and Christian faiths were divinely inspired Prophets, but they do not believe Jesus was the Son of God. To return to Surah 9,

    9:31 "They take their priests and their authorities to be their lords in derogation of Allah, and (they take as their Lord) Christ the son of Mary, yet they were commanded to worship but One God. There is no God but Him. Praise and glory to Him. (Far is He) from having the partners they associate (with Him).

    P.S. It's difficult to communicate tone in writing, but I hope this doesn't come off as strident. I don't want to get involved in "which God is better" flame wars. There have been more than enough of those in the past 1400 years, often with literal flames.
     
  9. yewsef

    yewsef Chieftain

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    I think Sikhism is so regional compared to the religions in the game. I'm guessing the game devs wanted more "international" religions so the player can relate to. Although I think "Vareity" is the most important thing for me. I wanted to see an Aztec/Mayan kind of religions with human sacrifices and cannibalistic rituals :(
     
  10. yewsef

    yewsef Chieftain

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    Where in the Qur'an does it say it's illegal to convert?

    The problem with most people is the are confused between historical events and what the Qur'an teaches. Specially the quote you've mentioned about killing kuffar(pagans) wherever you found them, if you're honest and just you'd understand when and why this phrase was said and direct to who. Definitely not everone, they were specific group of people.

    To sum it up, that group is Arabs from Quraish who tortured and tormented Muslims. Muslims had to imigrate to Madina to survive and they established their state there. Quraish stolen all of the Muslims property in Mekka. For 10 years Muslims been persecuted, tortured and killed. Muslims were not allowed to fight back. Then comes the text that gives them permission to fight back if they are attacked. The sentence you've provided which is a reaction and a self defense.

    But now every Islam-Hater quotes and copy paste whatever their heart likes and they LOVE to show Islam as evil, it's their hobby. I hope you're not one of them.
     
  11. Jas

    Jas Chieftain

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    Wow.... some pretty major thread drift here :crazyeye:
     
  12. The Fishman

    The Fishman Resident Megalomaniac

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    If I made an early modern era mod I would add Mughals and Sikhs. But in the main game, no. The Sikh empire didn't last long, and it wasn't very big.
     

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