Current (SVN) development discussion thread

[Theodorick]

I played about a half dozen games as Italy, and notice a trend. After the 'cannot declare war' period is up, most of Europe goes to war with me. The HRE always declares war first, which isn't a surprise. I was expecting that. But then Spain tends to come in next, and then France, and often the Byzantines get into the little Italian gangbang Europe has going on. The Norse even got into it in my last game. I can usually survive this, but it really makes getting the UHVs a pain in the butt, since I end up spending a few hundreds years overwhelmed by wars from all sides, and find that I can't be a peaceful little Renaissance forging civilization at all. Was this intended, and if it was, can anyone give any tips?

 

[BenZL43]

Have you added the city-act-as-improvement-thing-made-by-edead yet? I hope you did. It helps the Tamil on the Ceylon

 

[Tomorrow's Dawn]

I played about a half dozen games as Italy, and notice a trend. After the 'cannot declare war' period is up, most of Europe goes to war with me. The HRE always declares war first, which isn't a surprise. I was expecting that. But then Spain tends to come in next, and then France, and often the Byzantines get into the little Italian gangbang Europe has going on. The Norse even got into it in my last game. I can usually survive this, but it really makes getting the UHVs a pain in the butt, since I end up spending a few hundreds years overwhelmed by wars from all sides, and find that I can't be a peaceful little Renaissance forging civilization at all. Was this intended, and if it was, can anyone give any tips?

Fort your two choke points; one to block off troops from France & Spain in the approximate Piedmont region,
and one to block off troops from Germany in the approximate Venezia region. Staff them with defenders + Barrage siege.

Let me know if that helps.

 

[Leoreth]

Thank you for the information. I haven't updated yet to get this new UHV, but have you also added the tick marks on the Victory Condition screen for the Tamils?

Yep

I can't wait. What are the UHVs going to be?

Not sure right now. I have a couple of ideas but need to see what works for them.

I played about a half dozen games as Italy, and notice a trend. After the 'cannot declare war' period is up, most of Europe goes to war with me. The HRE always declares war first, which isn't a surprise. I was expecting that. But then Spain tends to come in next, and then France, and often the Byzantines get into the little Italian gangbang Europe has going on. The Norse even got into it in my last game. I can usually survive this, but it really makes getting the UHVs a pain in the butt, since I end up spending a few hundreds years overwhelmed by wars from all sides, and find that I can't be a peaceful little Renaissance forging civilization at all. Was this intended, and if it was, can anyone give any tips?

In my experience you can make friends with at least one of Germany and France. It's intended that you have to be a little more submissive in your diplomacy. I usually had only one war until the 1600 goal was due, and could survive this through the use of mercenaries and choke points like TD mentioned.

I'll take a look at the AIWars module, though. There's no need for Python-triggered wars against Italy, the usual diplo AI should suffice here.

Have you added the city-act-as-improvement-thing-made-by-edead yet? I hope you did. It helps the Tamil on the Ceylon

Yes, it's in with the latest commit.

 

[Caesar Augustus]

This "cities count as improvements" thing means they get the full value of whatever improvement the resource requires, yes? Do you need to have the required tech? I feel like this might change a lot of people's preferred city locations and make for some monster options. Something to look for.

 

[Leoreth]

This "cities count as improvements" thing means they get the full value of whatever improvement the resource requires, yes? Do you need to have the required tech? I feel like this might change a lot of people's preferred city locations and make for some monster options. Something to look for.

Currently you don't, but I intend to modify that.

 

[BenZL43]

Is it in now?

 

[Leoreth]

Just committed.

(And that sounded awfully like "are we there yet?" )

 

[Sikandar]

I think I'll do Poland next.

Excellent!

Just curious. What do you think about the following as potential civs?

Armenians
Bulgarians
Hungarians
Khazars
Lydians

 

[Leoreth]

They all seem impossible to me.

 

[Caesar Augustus]

Currently you don't, but I intend to modify that.

You don't get the full value or you don't need the tech? I assume the latter, but if so, damn if I'm not settling on a resource every damn time I have the option. I feel like China's optimal city placement will be totally rearranged with this change. Probably all of the "settler civs" will be drastically effected, though the others often have issues with jungle that limit their options. I haven't looked at the map to confirm but China and North America are so full of food and/or plantation resources that it's hard to imagine that there aren't at least a few city sites which have great surrounding land and a resource in their tile. I mean, one of the big limiting factors in the early game is happiness/health, which serves mostly to limit how many tiles you can work. The city tile is already good AND free: I worry what happens to balance when you make it even better. I get that in the late game the city tile is outclassed by the surrounding land, but it's hard to complain about a tile that doesn't require any free pop to work. Maybe I'm fretting over nothing.

They all seem impossible to me.

Agreed. None but the Khazars have room enough for more than one city (okay, maybe the Armenians could have 2, but if we're being accurate they wouldn't have more than 1 at a time, they'd just relocate). And the Khazars, while pretty cool, would require a massive restructuring of their geography AND the reinstatement of Judaism AND a total rebalance of European barbs AND probably a new batch of Mongol conquerors. Seems like a lot to ask for civ that lasted maybe 400 years and, while pretty expansive, didn't really contribute very much to the world at large. Let me put it this way: would ANYONE be able to come up with a name for a GP of any type other than maybe general? Probably not. That said: Hittites! Hittites Hittites Hittites. Hittites... and maybe Oman. But mostly Hittites.

 

[Sikandar]

Agreed. None but the Khazars have room enough for more than one city (okay, maybe the Armenians could have 2, but if we're being accurate they wouldn't have more than 1 at a time, they'd just relocate). And the Khazars, while pretty cool, would require a massive restructuring of their geography AND the reinstatement of Judaism AND a total rebalance of European barbs AND probably a new batch of Mongol conquerors. Seems like a lot to ask for civ that lasted maybe 400 years and, while pretty expansive, didn't really contribute very much to the world at large. Let me put it this way: would ANYONE be able to come up with a name for a GP of any type other than maybe general? Probably not. That said: Hittites! Hittites Hittites Hittites. Hittites... and maybe Oman. But mostly Hittites.

Why would the ancient Armenians relocate? They had a very expansive empire under Tigranes.

 

[civ_king]

You don't get the full value or you don't need the tech? I assume the latter, but if so, damn if I'm not settling on a resource every damn time I have the option. I feel like China's optimal city placement will be totally rearranged with this change. Probably all of the "settler civs" will be drastically effected, though the others often have issues with jungle that limit their options. I haven't looked at the map to confirm but China and North America are so full of food and/or plantation resources that it's hard to imagine that there aren't at least a few city sites which have great surrounding land and a resource in their tile. I mean, one of the big limiting factors in the early game is happiness/health, which serves mostly to limit how many tiles you can work. The city tile is already good AND free: I worry what happens to balance when you make it even better. I get that in the late game the city tile is outclassed by the surrounding land, but it's hard to complain about a tile that doesn't require any free pop to work. Maybe I'm fretting over nothing.



Agreed. None but the Khazars have room enough for more than one city (okay, maybe the Armenians could have 2, but if we're being accurate they wouldn't have more than 1 at a time, they'd just relocate). And the Khazars, while pretty cool, would require a massive restructuring of their geography AND the reinstatement of Judaism AND a total rebalance of European barbs AND probably a new batch of Mongol conquerors. Seems like a lot to ask for civ that lasted maybe 400 years and, while pretty expansive, didn't really contribute very much to the world at large. Let me put it this way: would ANYONE be able to come up with a name for a GP of any type other than maybe general? Probably not. That said: Hittites! Hittites Hittites Hittites. Hittites... and maybe Oman. But mostly Hittites.

 

[iOnlySignIn]

The problem is that on the current map the Caucasus is mostly Desert with no food.

I'm sure Pavel can testify that that is not realistic at all.

 

[JiimBV]

The cities count as improvements thing means that settling on a resource will always be better than not settling on a resource. The only time the tile under the city will be "improved" will be if it has a resource. If it's a normal tile it will not be improved. I don't know exactly what implications this will have, but it may make things exponentially easier for the human player. As for the AI, isn't it adverse to settling on resources? I've seen it happen, but not nearly as often as it not happening.

I don't know if I'm for or against the change, but I thought I'd lay out my thoughts as of now.

ALSO Poland will be awesome! Of all the other civilizations people have mentioned, the only one that sounds all that great to me is some form of the Moors. Think about it.

EDIT: I'm playing as the Greeks and I settled Korinthos on the marble (and Ilion on the sheep instead of Byzantium). After I got Masonry, when my mouse hovers over Korinthos' tile it says that it has 2 food, 4 hammers and 3 commerce, but when I go into city view, this is not the case: it only has 2 food, 3 hammers and 1 commerce. SECOND EDIT: After placing a quarry on the tile via worldbuilder and then getting rid of it the tile is now properly giving 4 hammers and 3 commerce. Strange.

 

[BenZL43]

Why would the ancient Armenians relocate? They had a very expansive empire under Tigranes.

Because controlling whole empire from Artaxata is too cost-heavy.. so Tigranes II built new city south of Artaxata at Tigranakert

Including vassals.

 

[civ_king]

Dawn of Civilization: the mod that doesn't forget Poland


I just loaded up an American spawn, India and Tamils respawned on the same turn, but they respawned in the same area so Tamils overwrote India (neither respawn touched Cochin which seems silly). I see the city of Daibul, but isn't that actually Gujarat which makes it Ahmedabad (or Diu if Portuguese)? Also please have them settle Karachi on the west side of the river, otherwise both cites are strangled. because they overlap like this
axa
xxx
oxo
xxx
axa

Should Thailand be conquering a collapsed China?

Russia only has 5 cities in Siberia, three are within tiles of the Ural line, the fourth is four tiles.

Portugal settled Coimbra 3N of the south African iron.

Indonesia only settled it's capital, something went very wrong

Philipines, Fort Pilar should actually be Fortaleza del Pilar or Zamboanga (the city it's in).

Spain should give Settling priority to La Habana since Miami was only settled in 1825 (and it looks weird to have an uninhabited Cuba) as it better covers that area and with the recent update it makes a lot more sense to settle on the tobacco (should become unjungled).

One of the West Coast silvers should move down next to the salt lake (Comstock lode) or the gold should move down (gold rush anyone?)

Cape Verde is actually a lot further south than the map shows, it's like 2-3 tiles south and perhaps one west. Azores are at least 1 further west and should be hill (Azores are hilly and it could use the production anyway). Madeira is habitable, 2m comparable to the Azores 1/4m.

In the AD 600 map the Corsican sheep should have a pasture

PS America should start with Urbanization not capitalism, it should also start with corporation

 

[Tomorrow's Dawn]

Leoreth, concerning Tibet, some of us suggested there should be a occupation of China's capital goal.
I was recently thinking that should be expanded to Mongolia as well,
considering Yellow Hat Buddhism had complete domination of the Mongolian religious sphere post-Yuan Dynasty.
What do you think of that idea?

 

[BenZL43]

India should not respawn if Tamil is alive, IMO.

 

[Leoreth]

You don't get the full value or you don't need the tech? I assume the latter, but if so, damn if I'm not settling on a resource every damn time I have the option. I feel like China's optimal city placement will be totally rearranged with this change. Probably all of the "settler civs" will be drastically effected, though the others often have issues with jungle that limit their options. I haven't looked at the map to confirm but China and North America are so full of food and/or plantation resources that it's hard to imagine that there aren't at least a few city sites which have great surrounding land and a resource in their tile. I mean, one of the big limiting factors in the early game is happiness/health, which serves mostly to limit how many tiles you can work. The city tile is already good AND free: I worry what happens to balance when you make it even better. I get that in the late game the city tile is outclassed by the surrounding land, but it's hard to complain about a tile that doesn't require any free pop to work. Maybe I'm fretting over nothing.

That's a good point, maybe food resources (or food in general) should be excluded.

EDIT: I'm playing as the Greeks and I settled Korinthos on the marble (and Ilion on the sheep instead of Byzantium). After I got Masonry, when my mouse hovers over Korinthos' tile it says that it has 2 food, 4 hammers and 3 commerce, but when I go into city view, this is not the case: it only has 2 food, 3 hammers and 1 commerce. SECOND EDIT: After placing a quarry on the tile via worldbuilder and then getting rid of it the tile is now properly giving 4 hammers and 3 commerce. Strange.

Seems like founding a city doesn't lead to a recalculation of tile yields.

Leoreth, concerning Tibet, some of us suggested there should be a occupation of China's capital goal.
I was recently thinking that should be expanded to Mongolia as well,
considering Yellow Hat Buddhism had complete domination of the Mongolian religious sphere post-Yuan Dynasty.
What do you think of that idea?

I don't think they should be tasked to conquer specific cities at all.