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Current v1.13 Development Discussion

Discussion in 'Rhye's and Fall - Dawn of Civilization' started by Leoreth, Sep 11, 2014.

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  1. Leoreth

    Leoreth 古典部の会員 Moderator

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    Not so sure, this is why just threw this out here on a whim. Maybe a rather significant GP rate increase considering how many nobel laureates they have put out? Or just a free specialist?

    That's offensive against people who get offended too easily.

    Nah, sorry, the point was fair. I mostly just wanted to make fun of the British love for tea.
     
  2. citis

    citis Chieftain

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    I'm not a linguisticist. Is "Yank" politically correct? So can I call USA "Yankland"?

    Yank universities aren't unique in the world. European are at least the same important and function in the same way. On second though Asian, Australian and basically all universities function the same way.
     
  3. Leoreth

    Leoreth 古典部の会員 Moderator

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    :D

    It definitely has a derogatory connotation.

    I don't think that's a thing.
     
  4. MK101

    MK101 Chieftain

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    As a Brit it is my sacred duty to point out that Tea can solve all problems, familial arguments right the way up to international incidents have been resolved merely by the timely utterance of some iteration of the phrase 'Shall I put the kettle on'. :p

    I'm just coming back to DoC after a long forced absence - I now finally have a laptop capable of running the game faster than a deceased snail - so I'm getting used to some of the changes, last time I played was just before development for 1.13 started in earnest. I think that the American UB symbolising capitalism and consumerism is definitely more fitting than a university replacement. My reasoning is that while consumerism is rampant everywhere in the west not just the states, America's role in the creation of the capitalist, consumerist machine is far greater than it's role in the creation of University education, a concept it simply inherited from Europe. You could argue that they inherited their economics from Europe as well, but capitalism is a far different beast in the modern era as a result of the influence exerted by the growth of the powerhouse American state. The mall is emulated around the world in the modern day, a serious reminder of American economic influence and cultural imperialism. I think it would be a shame to remove it from the game personally.

    If the consensus is to replace it with a University building instead though, I think a GP rate increase is probably the way to go. An extra free specialist seems a little unadventurous in comparison. And certainly a free one of each as suggested by mrrandom would be a little overpowered, no? (I believe he already said it might be, it was just a suggestion thrown out I know).
     
  5. LacsiraxAriscal

    LacsiraxAriscal Below Settler

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    http://www.topuniversities.com/univ...region=+country=+faculty=+stars=false+search=

    Four out of the top six are British. Don't really see why the US has any distinction above the UK in regards to universities. Of course America has more in the top 50, but it is a waaaay bigger country (New York state alone is bigger than England) so I don't see how the number of good unis there is really comparable. I also agree with what MK101 posted.

    If it does get included, perhaps Ivy League could be a name? I know that doesn't include the west coast powerhouses, but there isn't really a name that encompasses them all.
     
  6. agentxorange

    agentxorange Chieftain

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    I'm offended that you think I'm offended by people who get offended too easily.

    And TBH university rankings aren't really a good way to determine the "best" university. For instance, there are so many schools with huge programs in stuff like engineering or commerce or education which would be better than any Ivy League school.
     
  7. Shadow Warlord

    Shadow Warlord Chieftain

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    One of my classes when i was still in college focused a lot on "American Exceptionalism", but i'm not sure Universities would be at the forefront of that (perhaps now they are, i'm not so sure about 100-200 years ago). It's kind of hard to really give America a special UB since we're still so young as a country, while everyone else has centuries of history to pull things from.

    That being said, universities both are and are not responsible for American economic success, in my view. On one hand, our universities now are producing people vital to the changing economy (engineers come to mind and are in high demand right now, along with tech specialists, but also business people, scientists, etc). On the other, you don't necessarily need a college degree in this country to be successful or make huge contributions to society (IE people like Bill Gates and Steve Jobs).

    If we were to have the University as an American UB, i'd think one of each specialist slot might be best, but i also think that the normal university could have a statesman slot as well to give the statesman an equal amount of slots as the other specialists (i think most have 3, but the statesman really only has two when the castle obsoletes).

    If you're looking to boost America's performance, i think the main thing is to find a way to help them develop quickly enough to catch up to and surpass Europe. I haven't played America in a while, but i remember struggling to catch up to England/Germany/Netherlands in tech and risk losing the UHV wonders.

    And no one, at least not where i live in America, says Yank (it's a British thing as far as i can tell).
     
  8. need my speed

    need my speed Rex Omnium Imperarium

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    I do! :p
     
  9. trevor

    trevor Chieftain

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    If you're considering it I'd suggest calling it "Public University" with mrrandomplayer's effect. The US public university concept is one remarkably different, & dare I say 'unique', from the religious European model & extremely wide-spread over the country & world.
     
  10. Publicola

    Publicola Chieftain

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    I'm intrigued by these proposals, though I don't think the alt-University should be a unique building solely for American civs. The problem is, we use the same word to describe universities as they were originally founded as we do to describe universities as they exist today. The medieval university was a fundamentally religious institution -- primarily Catholic, though there were a few quasi-predecessors founded in the name of Islam (given this, I'd actually recommend that there be some sort of religious pre-requisite to build them). The modern university, on the other hand, is now almost universally secular, even among those founded on explicitly religious charters.

    Besides the religious differences, though, the very concept of the university has developed over time, and bears little resemblance to what it originally meant. I'm not sure precisely how to say it -- the gradual shift is annoyingly hard to pin down in concrete terms. The simplest formula would relate to how instruction is given -- there's been (in broad terms) a movement away from master-apprentice relationships to teacher-student relationship, especially in a classroom sense. I'm inclined to give credit/blame to the Prussian model of public education, though I suspect the start of the shift predates that.

    In game terms, there are a few options. The first would be to leave universities as they are and simply introduce other buildings to reflect more modern or post-medieval elements (such as "philosophical society"). Another possibility would be to leave universities as they are but change their description later on (remove religious pre-req, add benefits, or change GP slots after a certain tech(s) is reached).

    A third possibility -- related to my proposal from the thread on Protestant wonders) would be to introduce new projects or change old projects to reflect the changing nature of modern education. For instance, instead of making the Internet the modern-day equivalent of the old Civ2/Civ3 Great Library, how about we key its benefits to the existence of universities (and/or computer labs)? For instance: building the Internet gives a compounding +5% or +10% bonus to science per university you own in each city with a university -- the more cities, the more universities, the more connected and the better they are able to learn new ideas. You could even introduce an element of modern-day globalization: if you have open borders with a civ that also has the Internet, both civs gain the bonuses from universities owned by the other player.
     
  11. Imp. Knoedel

    Imp. Knoedel Knoedel Imperator Satani Filius Augustus Nooborum

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    Hmmmm, I'm not sure I like your exact idea, but I do like the idea of using a project to represent the development of universities.

    How about this: University is changed to require the state religion in the city and maybe some other effects related to religion. Then add a new national project available at Scientific Method (so that poor tech is actually good for something besides leading to other techs) called "Secularisation of education" or something, which removes all or most religious effects from universities (definitely the state religion requirement to building them in the first place) and instead adds some other others.

    Ooooooor maybe we could bind the exact effects of the university to the religious civic its builder is running? Obviously it wouldn't make sense for the above project to be undertaken by a theocracy.
     
  12. GuitarDemon

    GuitarDemon Chieftain

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    I agree with this. I like the mall.
     
  13. borhap88

    borhap88 Chieftain

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    I'd like to keep Mall. Universities model is imported from Europe. Mall model, representing consumerist society, is exported throughout the world from USA and it has radically changed our economic development and life style in the direction of a common way more than any other phenomenon.
     
  14. citis

    citis Chieftain

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    This.

    As for modern universities, we have the laboratory building to represent the increased importance of science in economy.
     
  15. LacsiraxAriscal

    LacsiraxAriscal Below Settler

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    Which begs the question of if the massive development of the arts as an academic field should also be represented... said the English Lit student. :rolleyes:
     
  16. agentxorange

    agentxorange Chieftain

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    The arts are represented plenty in the mod (culture, artists, wonders, theatres, etc). They're already represented by the culture you get from unis anyway.
     
  17. ezzlar

    ezzlar Chieftain

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    Usa was first with producing modern day higher education. The close connection to the business life and former students would make a +15% gold bonus realistic.

    I dont like the mall.
     
  18. mrrandomplayer

    mrrandomplayer Potentially back

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    The US private university (and state school) system is a lot different from what I've heard about Europe. On the other hand, a shopping mall is a shopping mall, and call this cultural imperialism, but they have became relatively common in the 1st world.
     
  19. Leoreth

    Leoreth 古典部の会員 Moderator

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    New commit (breaks savegame compatibility): New civilization: Harappa
    - Human player only
    - Spawn: 3000 BC at Harappa
    - Leader: Vatavelli
    - Color: Purple
    - Unique Building: Bath (Aqueduct): requires Masonry, less production cost, +2 culture
    - Unique Unit: City Builder (Settler): cheaper, new cities start with additional population
    - Unique Power: Sanitation: positive health contributes to city growth
    - Unique Historical Victory:
    -- Establish a trade connection with another civilization by 1600 BC
    -- Build three Baths and two Walls by 1500 BC
    -- Have a total population of 20 by 800 BC

    Independent cities spawn with some initial culture
     
  20. The Diocletian

    The Diocletian Fire Fly

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    How 100% unexpected. Neat though, plan on playing them tonight.
     
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