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D+3 Classic SG: The Future Roman Superpower

Discussion in 'Civ2 - Stories & Tales' started by TheViking, Nov 4, 2006.

  1. TimTheEnchanter

    TimTheEnchanter I...am...an Enchanter!

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    Why is this? You still conduct science research and gather food while in disorder, so being in disorder (collecting a full load of food and science, but no gold or sheilds) should not have slowed down research.

    Barbs or techs?
     
  2. Sharkbait

    Sharkbait Warlord

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    I was labouring under the assumption that beakers were not received under unrest as well as shields and gold - oops. Busted - haven't had an issue with unrest for quite some time so v rusty.

    I found a way around my imaginary problem however, and you could maybe argue that it worked out OK - sacrificing gold for shields. Details to follow.
     
  3. Sharkbait

    Sharkbait Warlord

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    Firstly, my apologies - I have run into turn 16 due to misnumbering on my log. :blush: May something slightly unpleasant happen to me!

    OK, a brief report on what happened (written in hindsight somewhat after Tim corrected my view of unrest):

    -3300(0) - No changes to the set up other than to buy 2 shields in Rome for 2g.

    -3250(1) - Rome and Veii riot. Now, due to my already mentioned mistaken belief that beakers stopped under riots, I spent quite some time trying to figure out how to get the beakers for an oedo year discovery of Monarchy. Finally I somewhat fortuitously discovered that 40% luxuries kept Rome content when the silk is worked (red if the shielded GL river is worked) but Veii still a black hat. So I change TSL to 0/60/40 and run with that for the time being. I hire an Elvis in Veii with a view to alternating food and shields (and beakers in my erroneous thoughts).

    I start moving the settler towards (81,23) which I think will be a decent spot for the next city. The archer moves NE searching.

    -3200(2) - 11 beakers, need 11 more. Elvis fired in Veii.
    -3150(3) - 15b, need 7 more. Elvis hired in Veii. Archer spots hut - won't pop until after Monarchy.
    -3100(4) - 19b, need 3 more. Settler makes road with charge Tim left on it.

    -3050 (5) - MONARCHY -> Writing. Monarchy established.

    TSL to 0/70/30. Rome happy now when working silk, but black hat if working any other square.

    Antium founded at (81,23).

    -3000(6) - hut 25g. I haven't spent any gold as Veii has been rioting and is yet to grow, and Rome has been growing slower since its working the silk, but the upside to this is that it has been adding more shields this way so is closer to the settler when it grows to size 2.

    -2950(7) - Veii 2 turns from growing to size 2.

    -2900(8) - Archer moves abouts and finds a barb chariot!!!! Our man in the field is immediately killed. I get a glimpse of a barb horse too. I guess at this early stage that somebody must have popped a hut and got barbs. So we must have a neighbour close! Silver lining...

    Anyway, the chariot has a fair bit of forest between it and Rome, which is getting close to growing to size 2 and building a settler, so I don't change production and sacrifice shields at this stage.

    -2850(9) - 22 beakers, need 11 more.

    -2800(10) - Veii to size 2 - Elvis hired and fish worked. Antium worker is put on the sea to get the necessary beaker to finish the tech next turn. Barb hasn't moved closer.

    -2750(11) - WRITING -> Currency.

    Rome is size 2 - 1 happy and 1 red hat so no Elvis required. Settler will be done next turn. I still haven't spent any more cash, and am not keen to given the threat that the barbs pose.
    I saw 3 barb units but not approaching yet.

    -2700(12) - Rome builds settler and starts dip. Settler heads towards (79,11) or (78,10) for new city. 12 beakers done, need 48 in total.

    The barb chariot has come a bit closer....

    -2650(13) - 19 beakers done.

    -2600(14) - Settler starts road. Antium to grow next turn. 26 beakers.

    German capital moved to Leipzig! Whatever...

    Barb gets a bit closer....

    -2550(15) - Antium size 2 - Elvis hired. 33 beakers.

    Barb moves closer still!! Only 2 moves from Rome now! (that is if it would be prepared to attack with less that 1 movement left)

    Aztecs move capital to Teotihuacan.

    -2500(16) :blush: - Settler moved NW. 40 beakers done, need 8 so I fire Elvis in Veii to get Currency done next turn.

    The next player may want to consider RBing a phalanx in Rome - on river and fortified it should see off the barb. Only 1 chariot visible for now but there is at least one more and a horse out there. I'm trying to remember if I saw a barb leader - something tells me I glimpsed one, which might quash my thoughts of a hut pop by a neighbour.

    A bit of black-clicking shows that Antium is at risk from the barbs too, as they could appear between Rome and Antium and head that way. So a phalanx there may be needed too - but I'm not so sure how that would stand up against a chariot - 2 defenders might be needed. I didn't spend anything other than 2g at the start (as Veii was going into and out of riots and Rome was growing slower due to working the silk - but it was getting more shields from doing this, so I think it may have evened things out). The 80g will be handy now, but not enough to RB a dip and bribe a barb as well. Hence my thoughts for phalanxes.

    The luxuries seemed to work well, and given the state of the cities (Veii rioting part of the time and Rome growing slower as it worked the silk), the extra shields from the content worker in Rome may outweigh the 3g per turn foregone. Haven't got the time to analyse this further.

    So here is the save - good luck to Old n Slow! I look forward to the bloodshed to follow - hopefully not ours.
     

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  4. TimTheEnchanter

    TimTheEnchanter I...am...an Enchanter!

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    Hmmm... Sounds pretty good considering the situation.

    One thing about the barbs - at the D+n levels, the barbs have a huge attack bonus. I don't know if a fortified phalanx will hold up against a chariot, even on good defensive terrain. It would be nice to bribe something that can attack. I don't how far away from completing the dip we are...so I don't know how much gold we'd have left. We may have to resort to leaving the city undefended and paying them 50g to go away and hope we can build up enough strength to fight back before the next one appears. Question for the crowd...do either huts or ships ever give out 2 types of barbs? If not, a chariot and a horse could mean real trouble. If that was a full land-based barb-wrath eruption, we may be done sooner that we thought. I don't think we can fight off 99 of them yet, no matter what we do.
     
  5. TheViking

    TheViking The world is not enough

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    When I first read Sharkbait's log I thought we were finished but looking at the game the situation looks a little better. We have 80 gold and by immediately setting taxes to maximum and buying a dip we may have collected enough cash to bribe the chariot once it arrives (assuming it does which is not certain). I don't remember the cost of barbarian chariots - we probably need 2 or 3 turns to collect enough cash.

    Another possibility is to empty the city and pay the barbs for not capturing it. IIRC we need to have 100+ gold for this to be possible so we'd need 3 turns to collect sufficient cash.

    I don't think this is a 99 barb uprising.

    The next few turns will be crucial to our survival. Old n Slow plays next.
     
  6. TimTheEnchanter

    TimTheEnchanter I...am...an Enchanter!

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    The cost to make the barbs go away is half your gold or 50g, whichever is higher, therefore you only need to keep 50g in the treasury.

    If you set taxes at 60tax/0sci/40lux, and put both workers in the small cities onto the ocean you can get rid of the elvii, and collect 10g/turn total.

    Barb chariots cost 61g to bribe. You could IPRB along the way but it would take a few turns to get enough gold/sheilds for the dip without dropping below the 50g needed to make him go away if the dip is not done yet before he attacks. I would make sure the treasury stays at at least 51 at the end of each turn until the dip is done. If he attacks before the dip is done, spend the 50g to make him go away. If he doesn't attack, when you add the 10 from the cities, you will have enough (51+10=61) to bribe the chariot on the turn the dip is completed.

    Of course this would require the chariot taking his time getting to the city. Probably 3-4 turns. If he goes directly there up the river, you'll just have to pay the 50g to buy him off.
     
  7. Sharkbait

    Sharkbait Warlord

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    Another possible way to defend could be RB a phalanx and foritify it, then build maybe another warrior. I reckon it would be pretty likely that the chariot would be weakened enough (if it managed to beat the phalanx) that the warrior could take it out. Would leave some cash for further emergencies if the other barbs appear too.
     
  8. TheViking

    TheViking The world is not enough

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    In my experience dealing with barbs using defensive units usually doesn't work early in the game so building a phalanx is far too risky IMHO. Even a phalanx plus warrior is probably insufficient despite the fact that the city is on a river square - the barbs have a big attacking bonus at this level. The only fairly safe options are those Tim pointed out because we don't have the techs to rush buy high-attack units to simply kill the barbs.

    Even though it's very expensive the best option is probably to bribe the chariot, assuming we have the time to do so. We could then use it to kill the other barbs should they appear.
     
  9. TimTheEnchanter

    TimTheEnchanter I...am...an Enchanter!

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    If the Phalanx loses, would the city (size1) be razed? I think this is much too high risk. Even without attack bonuses, a chariot has a good chance to beat a phalanx on a river fairly easily. With the attack bonuses for barbs at this level, it would probably be in the green if it even suffered any damage.

    I agree that the best options are (in order)...
    1) Pray the barb just goes away :please:
    2) Get a dip built and bribe the chariot so we can use it (and the dip) to fight back against any others (without dropping below 50g so 3 is still an option)
    3) Pay the 50g if we don't have time to build the dip to bribe it, then keep the dip around for next time.

    Unfortunately I doubt #1 will happen. With options 2 and 3, we may want to forgo science for a few more turns to get the treasury back up to 61 so we have the option of bribing another one as well.
     
  10. TheViking

    TheViking The world is not enough

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    Any news from Old n Slow who should play next? If he's not heard from in a day or two it's Kev's turn, assuming his schedule isn't too tight.
     
  11. Duke of Marlbrough

    Duke of Marlbrough The Quiet Moderator Retired Moderator

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  12. Sharkbait

    Sharkbait Warlord

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    I was thinking about this, and at the same time it occurred to me that it seems like your capital is often much harder to take (just as it seems when attacking the AI), especially for barbs.

    I'm not sure if there has been any study done on the defensive benefits of your palace, so I did a little experiment with the current situation. Please feel free to read the following, but if you're playing next and don't want any influence on your decision, please don't open the spoiler. Up to you though ;)

    Spoiler :


    I tested to see what the difference is in defensive terms when the palace is in Rome and when it is in another city.

    So I set up 2 saves where we have a phalanx fortified in Rome, with the barb sitting on the silk waiting to attack when I hit Enter, with the only difference being that in save number 2 I have activated the cheat mode (without doing anything to compromise my participation like revealing the map), granted myself the Masonry tech, got some cash and moved the capital to Antium.

    I ran the test 50 times each, and the results are interesting:

    Save #1 - palace in Rome
    Win - 19
    Win with vet status - 31
    Loss - 0!

    Save #2 - palace in not in Rome (Antium)
    Win - 10
    Win with vet status - 18
    Loss - 22

    I didn't expect it to be so dramatic. There was 1 or 2 times in test #1 that the phalanx got to the red but never lost, while there were a number of times in test #2 where the outcome could have gone either way.

    I'm not patient enough to work all this into the defensive stats or to try it with different combinations of attacker and defender, but it seems like 100% of the time in this case you'll win if you have a palace, and only 50% if you dont.

    I now know what I'd do next if it was my turn.... :D

     
  13. TheViking

    TheViking The world is not enough

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    Since Old n Slow hasn't shown up yet it is now Kev's turn, assuming his schedule allows it.
     
  14. Duke of Marlbrough

    Duke of Marlbrough The Quiet Moderator Retired Moderator

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    I've PM'd both already. I'll play this weekend if neither have the time.
     
  15. Duke of Marlbrough

    Duke of Marlbrough The Quiet Moderator Retired Moderator

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    New civ found. Barbs fought. New Techs. More terrain revealed.

    (0) 2500 BC - Taxes replace luxuries. 10 shields RB in Rome.

    Germans find Antium. They have a 4 power rating; not good. They demand Monarchy; given. Demand Code of Laws; given. Peace. Offer to trade techs; they offer Pottery for Bronze Working, declined.

    (1) 2450 BC - Phalanx RB in Rome. (The tests from sharkbait were about the same as what I had gotten, so we're trying that.)

    (2) 2400 BC - Barb Chariot attacks and dies. Phalanx made vet.

    Currency discovered. Map Making picked next for trying to trade maps with the Germans.

    (3) 2350 BC - Two cities RB to 20 shields. Vet Phalanx moved out to forest on River for second Barb Chariot roaming around. Fortifies.

    German capital moved to Berlin.

    (4) 2300 BC - Barb Chariot attacks and nearly kills Phalanx.

    (5) 2250 BC - Phalanx starts to move towards German front.

    (6) 2200 BC - two cities RB to 30 shields. Rome and Cumae workers pulled for size two growth.

    (7) 2150 BC - Order restored in both cities. Population tops 100,000.

    Largest Civs:
    2. Germans
    3. Romans

    (8) 2100 BC - Phalanx still moving

    (9) 2050 BC - Phalanx reaches hill near Antium. two settlers RB.

    (10) 2000 BC -

    Map Making discovered. Mysticism picked next (trade not an option).

    (11) 1950 BC -

    (12) 1900 BC - Neapolis founded.

    (13) 1850 BC - Diplomat built at Rome.

    (14) 1800 BC -

    Aztecs started Pyramids. Discover Mysticism. Pick Masonry.

    (15) 1750 BC -
    Meet with Germans. They demand Currency; given. Gift Mysticism. Trade Bronze Working for Masonry. HBR, Literacy, Math, Pottery, Wheel are other options. Ask to exchange maps; agreed.


    I’m shooting for Construction so we can get a fort on that hill near Antium. The Germans have Chariots and Catapults. Since we can’t beat them in numbers we have to better our chances to hold with minimal troops. I was planning on Antiums Settler building some roads towards Rome while waiting for Construction to be done and then building a fort on the hill. If we can get the fort built and a second unit on the spot we should be able to hold against the Germans while we expand the other direction for now.
     

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  16. Sharkbait

    Sharkbait Warlord

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    It's interesting to have this defensive issue so early - usually it is possible to expand fairly unhindered on a large map. Makes the tech choices a variant from the standard.

    Nice turnset Duke :) - pleased the barbs bit the dust. Actually, in one of my test scenarios (when Rome wasn't capital) the barb razed Rome, and then another set of barbs landed off a ship to the north! Glad that didn't happen in the real game!
     
  17. TheViking

    TheViking The world is not enough

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    Nice set of turns, the situation looks much better now :goodjob:.

    The Germans are enthusiastic so I wonder if it's possible to get them into an alliance.

    It's my turn to play now but I'll wait a couple of days to allow Kev and/or Old n Slow to play before me in case they show up. Due to my knowledge of the map (although I've forgotten a lot) I prefer playing late. For example I knew we shared an island/continent with the Germans :D.
     
  18. TimTheEnchanter

    TimTheEnchanter I...am...an Enchanter!

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    Very nice play from that situation.

    One thing I would suggest - There is still a fair amount of space beween us and the germans - I would try to move down that way and claim as much territory as possible before they overwhelm us. Maybe even down to that river. And an alliance would be ideal.
     
  19. Duke of Marlbrough

    Duke of Marlbrough The Quiet Moderator Retired Moderator

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    I always felt they would declare war on us if we didn't have the techs to give them. Right now we have nothing else they want.

    Still no response the the PM's sent to either person.
     
  20. TimTheEnchanter

    TimTheEnchanter I...am...an Enchanter!

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    We should try to get MPE again this game. I think trade would be our next tech, then we can switch to heavy gold taxes and van production. that should allow us to get freindly with everyone and get enough techs to trade with the Germans.

    Question: why are all our cities in disorder? We get a bit more science and food, but with two citizens you can hire an elvis to give us gold and shield production.
     

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