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Discussion in 'Civ4 - PBEM Games' started by Tigranes, Apr 21, 2013.

  1. Hercules90

    Hercules90 Deity

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    That's the way it is.

    And Yes to proposal
     
  2. Imp. Knoedel

    Imp. Knoedel Simperator Knoedel

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    I vote against this proposal and substitute my own from a few posts back.

    I want to fairly spread around all those Muslim cities across all players, but this rule would force me to keep them to myself and not even give me the option of peacefully taking them off China's hands.
     
  3. sinimusta

    sinimusta el capitano

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    Sry but tbh I don't feel like digging through the thread/event log, so could the proposal state which cities exactly would be affected?
     
  4. Imp. Knoedel

    Imp. Knoedel Simperator Knoedel

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  5. Tigranes

    Tigranes Armenian

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    Original owners can be seen in initial file attached to OP. Affected cities are those belonging to Vietnam and 6 Muslim civs: Indonesia, Saudis, Pakistan, Egypt, Libya and Nigeria. I can pretty reliably tell who was the second owner if we talk about particular city. It feels overkill to provide exhaustive ownership history for all the potentially affected cities, though.
     
  6. Imp. Knoedel

    Imp. Knoedel Simperator Knoedel

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    Tigranes is a lackey of Hercules and can't be trusted! This is all a dastardly commie plot! The United States condemns the handing over of half the world to a totalitarian genocidal one party state and will do everything in its power to stop this repeat of Nazi appeasement politics! This stops now!

    As the UN leadership has obviously been compromised by communist agents, the United States hereby declares a global emergency and evicts the self-proclaimed false People's Republic of China from its seat in the Security Council and re-instates the real Republic of China to its rightful place. All UN personnel known to be sympathetic to the Beijing government are immediately relieved of their position. Ronald J Dump, the President of the United States of America, temporarily takes full control of the UN until this crisis has been resolved.

    To restore peace and stability to the world, the US State Department suggests the following plan:

    1. The People's Republic of China grants independence to the governments of India, South Africa, Japan, Australia and all the various nations it has indirectly been ruling via UN mandate over the past few years. (In game terms: Tigranes is to cancel his capitulation to Hercules so that the UN team is no longer a vassal of Team China.)

    2. The People's Republic of China cedes control of the following occupied territories:
    -2.a Indonesia (that is all cities originally owned by Indonesia, that is Jakarta, Medan, Surabaya Balikpapan, Ujungpandang and Jayapura) to Russia or one of its allied nations. (In game terms: Hercules is to hand over all of these cities to the player of Team Russia.)
    -2.b most of Nigeria with the exception of N'Djamena (that is all cities originally owned by Nigeria except N'Djamena, that is Abuja, Abidjan, and Lagos) to sovereign nations of South or Central America. (In game terms: Hercules is to hand over Abuja, Abidjan and Lagos to Ruff, the player of Team Latino.)
    -2.c Aden and Dubai to the Republic of Iraq. (In game terms: Hercules is to hand over Aden and Dubai to me, the player of Team America, to Nouri al-Maliki, leader of Iraq in particular.)

    3. The European Union cedes control of the following occupied territories:
    -3.a Timbuktu to a sovereign nation of South or Central America. (In game terms: The player of Team Europe is to hand over Timbuktu to Ruff, the player of Team Latino.)
    -3.b Egypt to the State of Israel. (In game terms: The player of Team Europe is to hand over Cairo, Port Said and Port Sudan to me, the player of Team America, to Benjamin Netanyahu, leader of Israel in particular.)

    This re-assignment will result in a fair and equitable distribution of all former IS and Vietnam territories. (32 cities divided by 6 teams means each team receives five to six cities.)

    Failure to comply with these instructions by January 1st 2022 (that's like five more turns or so in game) will result in the United States Armed Forces paying the offenders a visit to help them along in the peace restoration process:

    Failure to comply with directive 1 on the part of the United Nations will result in the United States of America liberating the territories in question themselves and taking direct control of them.
    -Failure to comply with directive 1 on the part of the People's Republic of China will result in the United States of America liberating whatever Chinese territory is easiest to take from a military perspective and to keep on doing that until the Beijing government either dissolves or complies.

    Failure to comply with directive 2 on the part of the People's Republic of China will result in the United States of America liberating the cities in question by force and handing them over to the rightful owner. In addition the PRC will be forced to pay a suitable monetary compensation to the US for the inconvenience it caused. Failure to provide this payment will be treated as a failure to comply with directive 1.
    -Failure to comply with directive 2 on the part of Russia or Latin America will result in the United States of America taking control of the territories in question in their stead.

    Failure to comply with directive 3 on the part of the European Union will result in the United States of America liberating the cities in question by force and handing them over to the rightful owner. In addition the EU will be forced to pay a suitable monetary compensation to the US for the inconvenience it caused. Failure to provide this payment will be treated as if it were the PRC and failing to comply with directive 1.
    -Failure to comply with directive 3 on the part of Latin America will result in the United States of America taking control of the territories in question in their stead.

    If the PRC complies with all demands it will be re-instated into the Security Council.
    If the EU complies with all demands Toronto will be returned to Canada and friendly relations between the US and EU will resume.
    If the UN complies with all demands all territories originally under its mandate and now under US control will be returned to their original owner and friendly relations between the US and UN will resume. (That's Cairns to Australia and Sappora to Japan. If there's any other cities I forgot or overlooked this applies to them as well.)
     
  7. Hercules90

    Hercules90 Deity

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    reply via email

    I agree. You can't turn back time according to:

    Cillary L Hinton who disputes US president viewpoint

    Muller E Rice also challenging Mr RD Tump

    Come(th) the man (For Better Information)

    A bird in the Bush
     
  8. Tigranes

    Tigranes Armenian

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    So votes are 3 vs 1 so far. We need to hear from @Michkov and ask that @sinimusta make up his mind.
     
  9. Imp. Knoedel

    Imp. Knoedel Simperator Knoedel

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    What? Only Hercules voted for it! Tigranes doesn't count because he is obviously incapable of separating his duties as admin from his in-game vassalization to Hercules! I call for a vote of no-confidence in Tigranes as admin!

    Edit: Going back a page in the thread, Ruff's post of it seeming fair might be interpreted as a vote in favor, but he was also expressing doubt in that same post and he has only been feed Chinese propaganda at that point so his vote wasn't well-informed regardless.
     
  10. Michkov

    Michkov Emperor

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    I've got the save and will play in the next 24h or so. Once I had a look I'll send me answer. Not that his Knödelness is helping his cause with unreasonable demands.
     
  11. Imp. Knoedel

    Imp. Knoedel Simperator Knoedel

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    MY demands are unreasonable!? Tigranes basically suggests handing half the world over to China!

    The initial scenario at least tried to be somewhat balanced between the players, this is just enshrining "might makes right" and Chinese dominance as the legal status quo.

    No, either we spread around the virtual original owners fairly (that is like 5-6 cities per team) like I suggested or we exempt cities whose original owner is dead from the house rule prohibiting their trade. Anything else wouldn't be fair.
     
  12. ruff_hi

    ruff_hi Live 4ever! Or die trying

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    Edited my post from before for clarity ...
    And so what if my vote seems uninformed. One player, one vote. Or are you trying to disenfranchise me?
     
  13. Imp. Knoedel

    Imp. Knoedel Simperator Knoedel

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    Actually now it's even less clear. Who is the oldest (still alive) civilization? Do you mean the first civ to own it after the original (now dead) civ?

    I'm just saying, maybe we could use an electoral college here...

    Also why are you voting against your own interests? My proposal would be fair towards myself, Russia, Latinos and UN. Tigranes' proposal only helps cement the dominant position of China and Europe. If everyone were to vote in their own best interest this would be an easy 4 to 2 vote in favor of my proposal!
     
  14. sinimusta

    sinimusta el capitano

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    I think it would make more sense to the liberated cities to be returned to the original team, not just someone who happened to conquer it first. For instance Vietnamese cities were part of team Russia but never owned by Russia herself.
     
  15. Imp. Knoedel

    Imp. Knoedel Simperator Knoedel

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    Well yeah, but Vietnam is very much the odd man out here, the real issue is the cities of the former Muslim team of which every single member has been completely eliminated.

    We might very well just declare that the three originally Vietnamese cities still rightly "belong" to the Russian team as a whole, so that if, say, an US American Carrier group were to capture them five turns from now the American player may liberate them to any civ of the Russian team, or ask the Russian player which specific civ of theirs it should go to. Hypothetically speaking, of course, not that I would want to bribe you to vote along my interests or something like that. ;)
     
    Tigranes likes this.
  16. Michkov

    Michkov Emperor

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    I vote no on all three questions
     
  17. Tigranes

    Tigranes Armenian

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    @Michkov , there were no 3 questions (*rolling eyes @Imp. Knoedel *). Just this one. If you need more information or briefing on the matter -- I will provide. Since I am the admin I am trying to come up with reasonable extrapolation of the existing house rules that I have posted in OP. Obviously 5 years ago when I was setting up this game I could not foresee all the possible situations in future (which is now our present). Unlimited city trading always ruin games with exploits and petty bickering. But complete ban was just as bad and unrealistic, because borders do get change, especially after those epic wars we had witnessed in this game. Liberation is a very realistic occurrence. Please vote on my quote.
     
  18. Imp. Knoedel

    Imp. Knoedel Simperator Knoedel

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    Both of my suggestions were more fair and reasonable than your blatant attempt at manipulating the house rules in your favor!

    I vote we completely disregard your "proposal" and vote on my suggestions instead.
     
  19. Hercules90

    Hercules90 Deity

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    It is not about second or third owner.
    One It's about when a civ empire is eliminated and there is no civ empire to return cities to. The game is called Dominearthion afterall.

    So according to Imp K proposal, if MIchov (EU empire + Canada) wipes out Russia empire, at his own expense and with no substantial help from another Empire. Those captured cities get re distributed amongst remaining empires. He would feel annoyed. What a load of rubbish.

    Also a reasonable browse through the thread will show Nighthawk more or less sacrificed Vietnam to stay centrally strong in Russia.
    Also he, Imp K condemns Tigranes now, but forgets in his earlier Muslim Civ role he was content to have Tigranes as a vassel and wage war against Russian Empire and South American Empire.

    Also US empire joined in, to captured a Japanese city.

    Chinese Empire responded to requests for assistance and with Russia and South American Assistance, stopped this expansion.

    Now Imp K wants to rewrite history and undo history.

    A while back Imp K suggested a new game on this Scenario to which I was happy to agree, but I strongly object to this proposed modification just so he can try to get revenge for his past life in this game.
     
  20. Imp. Knoedel

    Imp. Knoedel Simperator Knoedel

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    Hercules, you either present a strawman of me, or you have not properly understood my suggestion. If it is a misunderstanding, I will try to clear it up:

    No, that is not what I said at all. What I would propose for that scenario depends on whether or not the Russian team still has any living civs left.

    If it does, like e.g. all civs of the Russian team except for Turkey and Venezuela are eliminated from the game, then sinimusta and his team as a whole still are the original owners, and sinimusta may designate which of his remaining civs each Russian, Kazakhstani and Vientamese city "belongs" to. Belonging here does NOT mean, as you say and/or believe, that Michkov now suddenly has to liberate all of these cities to Turkey and Venezuela, but that it is legal (as per the house rules) for him (or for future third parties capturing them) to gift these cities to Turkey/Venezuela outside of peace negotiations.

    If all civs of the Russian team were eliminated, I would then go on to propose fairly spreading around the virtual original owner of each civ that originally belonged to the Russian team so that every remaining living player is treated as the virtual original owner of some cities. This, again, does NOT mean that now the conquerer of the Russian team now has to give up the majority of their booty, it only means that it is LEGAL for them or someone who captures these cities from them to do so outside of peace negotiations.

    That is the proposal I made.

    As an alternative solution I later suggested that cities whose original owner and/or entire original owner team had been completely eliminated were to be exempted from the house rule restricting their trade.

    Both of these options are vastly more fair than what Tigranes offered.

    I assume this confusion comes from the fact that everyone ignored my proposal the first time I made it a page back, and only saw it in my later post where I brought it up again in conjunction with roleplay in-character demands.
     

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