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Danish far-right party calling for Muslim deportation to stand in election

Discussion in 'Off-Topic' started by Angst, May 6, 2019.

  1. Lexicus

    Lexicus Warlord

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    Neither do I, I still see screencaps of Tweets and links to Twitter threads all the time.
     
  2. Angst

    Angst Rambling and inconsistent

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    So you just went "no" here and I'm going to go out and add a few notes for you.

    Honestly, I've found the series very useful in engaging with a vast number of people. I'm confused as to what exactly you don't like about it. Although while you're being very vague, maybe it's because you believe he's arbitrarily talking about everything right of centre, always?Some peope do and react to the series as such, without engaging in how the content is useful. The series is meant to generally decode why and how the alt-right utilizes speech to manipulate, although it touches upon how it seeps into centre right parties too, as they're being influenced by it. Mind you - he's actually being very deliberate in his wording, so when he says Republicans, he means that, and when he says *****, he means that. And of it's usefulness, well, for example, the episode death of a metaphor applies to your very first post this thread, where you asked whether Stram Kurs was for people that didn't know "code".

    What's your problem with it? I'm going to assume you got ... for a lack of a better word, and sorry about the rudeness - I'm on my way out the door and don't have the time to phrase myself well - triggered by the leftist slant of the author, or something else in the video, and gave the content a pass. Maybe it's because you're predisposed against Sarkeesian? I don't know. However he notes that the technique isn't exclusive to the right anyways, so is it just your belief that the techniques outlined aren't used and/or don't work? Because they most certainly are and do.

    If you know of the techniques described in the video to begin with, it's a waste of your time. But it's meant to be basic introduction in certain rhethorical principles for well-meaning leftists that don't get how stuff like Trump happens. This video notes, from the top of my head, that:
    - The active participant in a discussion looks like the superior one to certain viewers, often independent of content
    - Short, unambigious definitions and phrases stick to certain viewers' heads more than indepth analysis and proof
    - That is, even if the person looks stupid on short term, memetic phrases said by the active participant stick
    - Certain people utilize the above to appear dominant in a discussion and to provide eschewing phrases intentionally for the goal of power (and some do unintentionally). It's part of what helps the alt-right get forward, and Stram Kurs utilizes it too
    - ("Lock her up") (That's a one-way example outside a debate but I couldn't figure out a better one on the way out the door)
    - They also utilize public fora like the internet to not discuss with the other person, but demonstrate activity in front of the audience.
    - He then ends up suggesting that we should use the online, private power of moderation to just remove that kind of stuff. I'm unsure whether this is the best solution, but the problem is that I don't actually know a better one.

    They were actually initially like "this is completely unacceptable and we won't work with it" and then when he was expected to win a seat, they went "well, we can't promise whether we'll work with him or not", over like a week. So there you go. Also, Danish politics work in blocs outside the governing coalition so even if they lose voters to Stram Kurs, he'll be part of the "blue" right wing bloc.

    OK, so you'll just have to take my word on this one: their posters are all over town, but I don't read them to remember them myself. I read indepth party programs, do well-funded match tests and follow the voting habits of the parties when they're in the government. But the posters are all like "easier access to ... efteruddannelse" (I don't know the English word for it. In-service education?) "strict but fair immigration", and then basically a bunch of what amounts to rollbacks of the right wing government's cuts the last couple of years. They're very concrete about their proposals, I just don't care about them because I've followed their voting habits myself, and vote for other parties on the left because of their habit.
     
    Last edited: May 8, 2019
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  3. yung.carl.jung

    yung.carl.jung Hey Bird! I'm Morose & Lugubrious

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    you misread my post. it's crystal clear that racism (the way you use the word, aka hatred/disdain towards other races) manifests anywhere from "benelovant racist grandma" to "literally Hitler". we're not talking about the degree of racism, but rather the actual classification.

    if people are racist, not matter how little, they necessarily develop their own system of racial categorization. the point I (and others) were trying to make is that these underlying systems of classifying humans are still intact in many peoples minds (western = white = good / eastern = brown = bad), but we now use different vocabulary for it, because talking about race publicly has been stigmatized. so instead "muslim" is used as an umbrella term for all kinds of brown people and our biggest cultural fears are projected onto them.

    it was never about whining over racism, it was simply making an observation with regards to the actual mental manifestation of race classification. kinda silly going out of your way to call other people "idiot" when you, on the regular, don't invest the neccessary time to really try and understand what other people are saying. I was pretty clear in my post I think, even added a quote from a paper, yet it seems you still didn't get the gist of it. dialogue works better if you don't see bad intentions around every corner.
     
  4. yung.carl.jung

    yung.carl.jung Hey Bird! I'm Morose & Lugubrious

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    race does not exist period. taxonomies do not exist. feelings do not exist. words do not exists. age does not exist. they don't exist in the same vein that physical things, like rocks, do. there are people whose skin color we identify as brown. yet there is no brown, or black, race. they are all mental constructs and only exist as part of our minds. no offense, but I've been debating this topic with you for ages and clearly you have a few mental barriers that stop you from accepting any kind of viewpoint you're not comfortable with. you desperately want to believe in race as a reality and have shown that through every debate yet.

    but because I like you, again.

    race is a pseudoscientific taxonomic term that found its way into the scientific discourse post-enlightenment. it is currently not being used in any serious area of research, aside from many criminology, just because criminology deals very much in phenotypes. it has been almost entirely abandoned as a coherent scientific concept, see the declaration of the APA which I must have posted like 5 times on this board already.

    there are more legitimate systems of classification: ethnicity, ancestry, DNA haplogroups, nationality, self-reported ethnicity and so on. people who are not racists (read: people who do not believe race is a reality, aka everyone with a functioning brain) prefer to use these systems of classification.
     
  5. yung.carl.jung

    yung.carl.jung Hey Bird! I'm Morose & Lugubrious

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    this is a bad post and you should feel bad. if you genuinely think that the colonial racist regime was not the direct cause of the genocide then you're massively ignorant. for some reasons those herders and farmers lived together for centuries without much of a problem. then, suddenly, racist science defines the everyday minutae of their lives and they go on a racist murder spree.

    you know what's up. the hamitic hypothesis in incredibly interesting, I wrote a whole paper on it. imho this narrative was one of the prime reasons why the genocide happened.

    by the way, the implication is not just that Ham saw Noah passed out in the tent, but rather that he kind of.. raped him.
    this is a bad post and you should feel bad. if you genuinely think that the colonial racist regime was not the direct cause of the genocide then you're massively ignorant. for some reasons those herders and farmers lived together for centuries without much of a problem. then, suddenly, racist science defines the everyday minutae of their lives and they go on a racist murder spree.

    you know what's up. the hamitic hypothesis in incredibly interesting, I wrote a whole paper on it. imho this narrative was one of the prime reasons why the genocide happened.

    by the way, the implication is not just that Ham saw Noah passed out in the tent, but rather that he kind of.. raped him.

    This is, by the way, objectively wrong. Consult any historical sources on the topic and you would've found out that both identities were in fact highly flexible, and that you could become either of the ethnicities through marriage, wealth, or simply by taking up herding or farming. those identities were cultural, ethnic and economic of nature and very fluent until the Europeans dropped in.

    the hamitic hypothesis does not apply to northern Africans, berbers or any similiar group of people, it was reserved mostly for central Africans. it was in fact the exact opposite. the northern Africans and the pastorialists in general had an identity of "civilizers" ascribed to them: they were the ones that came to the poor, dumb Hamites and gave them culture (much like the myth of the civilizing western man, not coincidentally).

    here, a source:

    Europeans also liked thinking, for a long time, that they were the ones who brought culture to Egypt in the first place, or that Egyptians were some bastardized form of Aryans/Europeans, or both, because they couldn't cope with other people being successful.

    whenever someone mentions "clash of civilizations" my pseud bells ring aloud. it's like "the bell curve" or "guns, germs & steel", one of the very few books that exist in this world where you immedeatly know something is wrong.

    this time I finally have to agree with you. well, the upper part of your post. the hamitic hypothesis has been abused by many people throughout history, and this is one example how it is employed as a strategy of justification.
     
    Last edited: May 8, 2019
  6. Manfred Belheim

    Manfred Belheim Oh you can edit this

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    Are you sure? I would imagine that most people aren't talking about sikhs, hindus etc when they talk about muslims.
     
  7. yung.carl.jung

    yung.carl.jung Hey Bird! I'm Morose & Lugubrious

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    that is exactly the point I was trying to make. Islamophobes don't give a hoot about Sikhs, they aren't even aware that Sikhs or Shia muslims or Sufi muslims EXIST, Islam is a monolith to them (it is to most people, to be completely honest, just like Christianity might be a monolith for most Chinese for example). they hate them because they're not the ingroup. yes, I'm fairly sure, having lived in the German racist capital and routinely seen Indian/SEAsian kids called "******* muzzie".
     
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  8. Cloud_Strife

    Cloud_Strife Warlord

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    Sikh's and Hindus have been on the recieving end of hate crimes because the perpetrators were so ignorant they thought they were Muslims, despite there being vast differences in terms of religion and even culture.
     
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  9. Manfred Belheim

    Manfred Belheim Oh you can edit this

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    Yes obviously I got that that was the point you were making. I was asking if it was correct. But then if you're going to make blanket statements like "Islamaphobes aren't even aware that Sikhs exist" then I'm not sure it's worth bothering with really. Plus you sort of went from a general statement about how "muslim" is used in general, to specifically how Islamaphobes use it (however you're defining the latter group of course).
     
  10. Manfred Belheim

    Manfred Belheim Oh you can edit this

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    I did say "most people" though didn't I, and most people don't go around committing hate crimes.

    So now we've got the point of saying that anyone that refers to "muslims" as a group, a) is definitely including Sikhs and b) probably wants to beat them up.
     
  11. Cloud_Strife

    Cloud_Strife Warlord

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    No, just that the bigots can barely tell the difference between the two, so perhaps they base it more upon skin colour than actual religious belief, otherwise why are they targetting non-islamic faiths when their intent is to harass Muslims?
     
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  12. Manfred Belheim

    Manfred Belheim Oh you can edit this

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    I don't remember arguing that actual violent racists aren't primarily concerned with race...
     
  13. Cloud_Strife

    Cloud_Strife Warlord

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    So why are bigots mistaking Sikhs and Hindus for Muslims?
     
  14. haroon

    haroon Chieftain

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    and how racist not concern with race? I thought they are suppose to be full of it lol
     
  15. metatron

    metatron unperson

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    1. Defending Sarkeesian is pretty much a non-starter.
    Virtually everything the dude said about her is... well... not a lie, but a "subtruth" at best.
    "Alternative truth".
    You know, like Trump being a successful businessman

    2. I looked at the channel suggestions there.
    That was worse than derping into a channel and the Rec's are mic. and Buzzfeed.
    This had cotton-ceiling-busting Riley in and goddamn Big Joel. and some other persons of that ilk.

    3. Because i'm a nice person i checked out the channel anyway.
    And the issue remains the same as with the original video: He is doing the very things he is criticising. Non-stop. Like, if i actually did a rebuttal of 5 minutes of his material i'd need 25 minutes. Like, you have to stop virtually every second with this guy, because every clause has manipulative purpose. He's virtually incapable of saying something that is not moving goal posts, equivocating etc.
    I finally lost it with his Ship of Theseus. Like: "Get a mirror, buddy!"

    4. The Eboshi thing is where i got officially annoyed.
    But, hey, what did i expect...
    My point is: He's still stealing their support. Like, i presume most of his voters would be former DPP voters. (?)
    So they'd rather have him implode in a couple years, before the next election anyway. No?
    Well, what it is? :)
    I was pondering asking questions about Danish education anyway.
    So if you have the time, feel free to elaborate.
    They sell keyboards starting at 4.99.
    See, that was your first mistake.
    But hey, you have upgraded to... living in Bavaria... :cringe:
    Emphasis mine.

    I'm sure you can see the problem here. No? :mischief:

    Btw: The timestamps on your tripple post don't exactly help to dispell a certain impression either.
     
  16. Cloud_Strife

    Cloud_Strife Warlord

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    Would you classify yourself as an Anti-SJW, Metatron?
     
  17. Angst

    Angst Rambling and inconsistent

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    I've found him really useful. I think your slant tints your perspective in regards to the utility of the videos, but it's up to you. I've investigated the Sarkeesian thing enough to understand that her research has serious flaws, but the overdrive hatred towards her is absolute nonsense. You might be in complete opposition to this point, and if so, sure. I don't care. I don't think Sarkeesian is relevant to this thread so I don't really want to discuss it. And, the rest, well. To understanding the rhetorical usage and dealing with it, maybe you're already used to dealing with those sorts of people properly and don't care about that content. I don't know. I learned from this to not consistently make blocks of text with proof, and to instead either ignore or be the active part, when appropriate. Because some people listen to that, and it's what extremists utilize today succesfully, simply because they don't care.

    Again, it's up to you. But you shouldn't ignore this usage, and to be honest, if you find his deconstructions manipulative, you should still learn about those usages and adapt to them. I've tried to get into alt-right channels myself and listen to their techniques even if I don't agree with them, and the channel is pretty much spot on. They're very open about it internally. It's what the reality of the world is today, and one should focus on that and adapt. Just going "this guy isn't genuine when framing just the right" ignores the core issue of how a significant portion of humans work today. Like, even if he frames Sarkeesian wrong, it doesn't really matter in regards to understanding those mechanics.

    That was kind of rambly and repetetive, I hope you understood. Again, really busy.

    I think their reasoning is that the guy is going to get in government anyways, and the additional vote in the government does still count for something when the Danish centre (ie the Social Democrats) is as behaviorally strange as it is. Each seat is a vote for their bloc against the left, even if they lose seats to other parties than their own. The parties aren't very much operating independently even if they have independent clear policies. Bloc-internal competition is usually done during elections by making the "best" political offer, not through locking out bloc-friendly parties when elected.

    Basically that point of education is to fund education for workers or unemployed say 30+ years. It's to counteract having people outcompeted by concurrent market demands and/or to improve the competences of them and as such try to counteract the competition from younger applicants that have similar credentials. Maybe even allow some to change careers to keep them working and happy. (Happy workers are more productive and have less issues of commitment) The SD want to fund that, while the right tries to cut down and/or privatize it.
     
    Last edited: May 8, 2019
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  18. Arwon

    Arwon

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    Sorry but clearly Turkey, Iran and Saudi Arabia, those three allied stalwarts of Islamic Civilisation, are about to coordinate a common policy of military alliance against the axis of Orthodox Russia-Bulgaria-Greece.
     
    Last edited: May 8, 2019
  19. Narz

    Narz keeping it real

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    Sure. All I said in my 1st post is Islam isn't a race. I'm not denying what you're saying.

    I never called you that. I was talking to Lexy. I don't need to invest too much time to understand him, his every opinion is predictable, he's like an algorithm. And he basically called me a racist for not agreeing w him. Hence idiot.
     
  20. Manfred Belheim

    Manfred Belheim Oh you can edit this

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    "I don't remember arguing that X doesn't happen"

    "So why does X happen then?"

    K.
     

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