Danish far-right party calling for Muslim deportation to stand in election

Hard pass.
Like... wow... this guy manages a remarkable density of BS.
You'd need five minutes per minute to address all this manipulative junk.

Oh... and i made the mistake to check out the rest of the channel.
What a dumpster fire. :nono:

So you just went "no" here and I'm going to go out and add a few notes for you.

Honestly, I've found the series very useful in engaging with a vast number of people. I'm confused as to what exactly you don't like about it. Although while you're being very vague, maybe it's because you believe he's arbitrarily talking about everything right of centre, always?Some peope do and react to the series as such, without engaging in how the content is useful. The series is meant to generally decode why and how the alt-right utilizes speech to manipulate, although it touches upon how it seeps into centre right parties too, as they're being influenced by it. Mind you - he's actually being very deliberate in his wording, so when he says Republicans, he means that, and when he says *****, he means that. And of it's usefulness, well, for example, the episode death of a metaphor applies to your very first post this thread, where you asked whether Stram Kurs was for people that didn't know "code".

What's your problem with it? I'm going to assume you got ... for a lack of a better word, and sorry about the rudeness - I'm on my way out the door and don't have the time to phrase myself well - triggered by the leftist slant of the author, or something else in the video, and gave the content a pass. Maybe it's because you're predisposed against Sarkeesian? I don't know. However he notes that the technique isn't exclusive to the right anyways, so is it just your belief that the techniques outlined aren't used and/or don't work? Because they most certainly are and do.

If you know of the techniques described in the video to begin with, it's a waste of your time. But it's meant to be basic introduction in certain rhethorical principles for well-meaning leftists that don't get how stuff like Trump happens. This video notes, from the top of my head, that:
- The active participant in a discussion looks like the superior one to certain viewers, often independent of content
- Short, unambigious definitions and phrases stick to certain viewers' heads more than indepth analysis and proof
- That is, even if the person looks stupid on short term, memetic phrases said by the active participant stick
- Certain people utilize the above to appear dominant in a discussion and to provide eschewing phrases intentionally for the goal of power (and some do unintentionally). It's part of what helps the alt-right get forward, and Stram Kurs utilizes it too
- ("Lock her up") (That's a one-way example outside a debate but I couldn't figure out a better one on the way out the door)
- They also utilize public fora like the internet to not discuss with the other person, but demonstrate activity in front of the audience.
- He then ends up suggesting that we should use the online, private power of moderation to just remove that kind of stuff. I'm unsure whether this is the best solution, but the problem is that I don't actually know a better one.

What's their plan anyway?
I mean having this loony party around is beneficial to them in the short run: They look less problematic.
But in the long run this is just competition for them, and in case of the DPP someone stealing their brand, isn't it?
So do they not have every interest to sideline them?

They were actually initially like "this is completely unacceptable and we won't work with it" and then when he was expected to win a seat, they went "well, we can't promise whether we'll work with him or not", over like a week. So there you go. Also, Danish politics work in blocs outside the governing coalition so even if they lose voters to Stram Kurs, he'll be part of the "blue" right wing bloc.

Anyway, our question kind of was:
What's the thing the Social Democrats are selling right now?
Like, do they have one or two big things that the campaign is supposed to be all about?
Like... "We have to reform [thing X] and spend more money on it. Because it's a nice thing for people. And we are Social Democrats and that's what we do."

OK, so you'll just have to take my word on this one: their posters are all over town, but I don't read them to remember them myself. I read indepth party programs, do well-funded match tests and follow the voting habits of the parties when they're in the government. But the posters are all like "easier access to ... efteruddannelse" (I don't know the English word for it. In-service education?) "strict but fair immigration", and then basically a bunch of what amounts to rollbacks of the right wing government's cuts the last couple of years. They're very concrete about their proposals, I just don't care about them because I've followed their voting habits myself, and vote for other parties on the left because of their habit.
 
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Racists arent some hivemind. It's a spectrum. My mom for instance is probably slightly racist, mistrusting mainstream black culture (which to be fair many blacks also do) but she likes "hard working Africans". She'd also probably prefer I bring home a "nice" black girl than a white one who's all tatted up.

I know there are actual racists who will be against anyone not Aryan but they're a very small segment and probably shrinking, they just create a lot of noise to appear bigger than they are.

Instead of whining about how horrific the opposition are I hope the Danish left has learned from the US's mistakes and created a solid platform of their own.

you misread my post. it's crystal clear that racism (the way you use the word, aka hatred/disdain towards other races) manifests anywhere from "benelovant racist grandma" to "literally Hitler". we're not talking about the degree of racism, but rather the actual classification.

if people are racist, not matter how little, they necessarily develop their own system of racial categorization. the point I (and others) were trying to make is that these underlying systems of classifying humans are still intact in many peoples minds (western = white = good / eastern = brown = bad), but we now use different vocabulary for it, because talking about race publicly has been stigmatized. so instead "muslim" is used as an umbrella term for all kinds of brown people and our biggest cultural fears are projected onto them.

it was never about whining over racism, it was simply making an observation with regards to the actual mental manifestation of race classification. kinda silly going out of your way to call other people "idiot" when you, on the regular, don't invest the neccessary time to really try and understand what other people are saying. I was pretty clear in my post I think, even added a quote from a paper, yet it seems you still didn't get the gist of it. dialogue works better if you don't see bad intentions around every corner.
 
so race doesn't exist until you want to call people racists?

race does not exist period. taxonomies do not exist. feelings do not exist. words do not exists. age does not exist. they don't exist in the same vein that physical things, like rocks, do. there are people whose skin color we identify as brown. yet there is no brown, or black, race. they are all mental constructs and only exist as part of our minds. no offense, but I've been debating this topic with you for ages and clearly you have a few mental barriers that stop you from accepting any kind of viewpoint you're not comfortable with. you desperately want to believe in race as a reality and have shown that through every debate yet.

but because I like you, again.

race is a pseudoscientific taxonomic term that found its way into the scientific discourse post-enlightenment. it is currently not being used in any serious area of research, aside from many criminology, just because criminology deals very much in phenotypes. it has been almost entirely abandoned as a coherent scientific concept, see the declaration of the APA which I must have posted like 5 times on this board already.

there are more legitimate systems of classification: ethnicity, ancestry, DNA haplogroups, nationality, self-reported ethnicity and so on. people who are not racists (read: people who do not believe race is a reality, aka everyone with a functioning brain) prefer to use these systems of classification.
 
herders get killed by farmers...its a story right out of the Bible

this is a bad post and you should feel bad. if you genuinely think that the colonial racist regime was not the direct cause of the genocide then you're massively ignorant. for some reasons those herders and farmers lived together for centuries without much of a problem. then, suddenly, racist science defines the everyday minutae of their lives and they go on a racist murder spree.

Interestingly enough the divide was introduced by Johan Hanning Speke, who based it on the Biblical hamite theory. Speke thought the Tutsis were the "higher race", because they were not, according to Speke, descended from Ham, Noah's son, whom Noah dooms to be slave to his other children, because Ham had the audacity to see drunked Noah passed out in his tent.

But still. I don't understand how you don't see that people can be racists, even if race has no useful basis in biology. People act out of false beliefs all the time. You can believe in the existance of unicorns, and apparently even receive "unicorn therapy", what ever that might be, all the while unicorns being non-existant.

you know what's up. the hamitic hypothesis in incredibly interesting, I wrote a whole paper on it. imho this narrative was one of the prime reasons why the genocide happened.

by the way, the implication is not just that Ham saw Noah passed out in the tent, but rather that he kind of.. raped him.
herders get killed by farmers...its a story right out of the Bible

this is a bad post and you should feel bad. if you genuinely think that the colonial racist regime was not the direct cause of the genocide then you're massively ignorant. for some reasons those herders and farmers lived together for centuries without much of a problem. then, suddenly, racist science defines the everyday minutae of their lives and they go on a racist murder spree.

Interestingly enough the divide was introduced by Johan Hanning Speke, who based it on the Biblical hamite theory. Speke thought the Tutsis were the "higher race", because they were not, according to Speke, descended from Ham, Noah's son, whom Noah dooms to be slave to his other children, because Ham had the audacity to see drunked Noah passed out in his tent.

But still. I don't understand how you don't see that people can be racists, even if race has no useful basis in biology. People act out of false beliefs all the time. You can believe in the existance of unicorns, and apparently even receive "unicorn therapy", what ever that might be, all the while unicorns being non-existant.

you know what's up. the hamitic hypothesis in incredibly interesting, I wrote a whole paper on it. imho this narrative was one of the prime reasons why the genocide happened.

by the way, the implication is not just that Ham saw Noah passed out in the tent, but rather that he kind of.. raped him.

They were divided before Europeans showed up and could be identified by appearance. Thats all it takes when stress is applied in the form of Europeans playing favorites..

This is, by the way, objectively wrong. Consult any historical sources on the topic and you would've found out that both identities were in fact highly flexible, and that you could become either of the ethnicities through marriage, wealth, or simply by taking up herding or farming. those identities were cultural, ethnic and economic of nature and very fluent until the Europeans dropped in.

I didn't know that. Now I'm wondering what form of discrimination the biblical story of Ham produced in ancient times. Were Egyptians or Nubians or both hamitic and did they ever care cuz, well, the Bible was not their genesis. I think race is generally a larger subset of humanity than tribes. There's just a lot of flexibility in the word, it can refer to the African race that includes many tribes and ethnicities or it can refer to the racial differences between Hutu and Tutsi and pygmies.

the hamitic hypothesis does not apply to northern Africans, berbers or any similiar group of people, it was reserved mostly for central Africans. it was in fact the exact opposite. the northern Africans and the pastorialists in general had an identity of "civilizers" ascribed to them: they were the ones that came to the poor, dumb Hamites and gave them culture (much like the myth of the civilizing western man, not coincidentally).

here, a source:

It was also the explanation favoured by European historians of the later 19th and earlier 20th centuries when Europeans were themselves conquering and colonizing black Africa. There thus evolved the so-called “Hamitic hypothesis,” by which it was generally supposed that any progress and development among agricultural blacks was the result of conquest or infiltration by pastoralists from northern or northeastern Africa. Specifically, it was supposed that many of the ideas and institutions of tribal monarchy had spread through Africa by diffusion from the ancient civilization of Egypt and the Nile valley.

Europeans also liked thinking, for a long time, that they were the ones who brought culture to Egypt in the first place, or that Egyptians were some bastardized form of Aryans/Europeans, or both, because they couldn't cope with other people being successful.

no doubt racists will latch onto the 'us & them' inherent to the clash of civilizations but then why do people of the same 'race' as Muslims dislike Islam?

that was for angst

whenever someone mentions "clash of civilizations" my pseud bells ring aloud. it's like "the bell curve" or "guns, germs & steel", one of the very few books that exist in this world where you immedeatly know something is wrong.

I wiki'd it, the original story may have been a justification for Israelite domination of Canaan since the curse was placed on Ham's son. Race or skin color isn't mentioned. On the other hand if the world was repopulated after the Flood by Noah's sons then the hamitic people should be very numerous. Any volunteers? I sure dont want people enslaving me much less because a hungover Noah woke up in a foul mood.

I'll go on a mini-rant here while on that subject, its possible Ham is the 'father' of African peoples and associated with slavery because Africa is our birthplace and eastward is the Garden where God took the man he made to work in paradise. Was Adam working for God in Africa too? Is that where mankind learned about slavery and how to justify it? We're slaves to God may have been literal. Worship = workship. At least those slaves working for God had time off, now we gotta be on the ball with 24/7 devotion

this time I finally have to agree with you. well, the upper part of your post. the hamitic hypothesis has been abused by many people throughout history, and this is one example how it is employed as a strategy of justification.
 
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so instead "muslim" is used as an umbrella term for all kinds of brown people and our biggest cultural fears are projected onto them.

Are you sure? I would imagine that most people aren't talking about sikhs, hindus etc when they talk about muslims.
 
Are you sure? I would imagine that most people aren't talking about sikhs, hindus etc when they talk about muslims.

that is exactly the point I was trying to make. Islamophobes don't give a hoot about Sikhs, they aren't even aware that Sikhs or Shia muslims or Sufi muslims EXIST, Islam is a monolith to them (it is to most people, to be completely honest, just like Christianity might be a monolith for most Chinese for example). they hate them because they're not the ingroup. yes, I'm fairly sure, having lived in the German racist capital and routinely seen Indian/SEAsian kids called "******* muzzie".
 
Are you sure? I would imagine that most people aren't talking about sikhs, hindus etc when they talk about muslims.

Sikh's and Hindus have been on the recieving end of hate crimes because the perpetrators were so ignorant they thought they were Muslims, despite there being vast differences in terms of religion and even culture.
 
that is exactly the point I was trying to make. Islamophobes don't give a hoot about Sikhs, they aren't even aware that Sikhs or Shia muslims or Sufi muslims EXIST, Islam is a monolith to them (it is to most people, to be completely honest, just like Christianity might be a monolith for most Chinese for example). they hate them because they're not the ingroup. yes, I'm fairly sure, having lived in the German racist capital and routinely seen Indian/SEAsian kids called "******* muzzie".

Yes obviously I got that that was the point you were making. I was asking if it was correct. But then if you're going to make blanket statements like "Islamaphobes aren't even aware that Sikhs exist" then I'm not sure it's worth bothering with really. Plus you sort of went from a general statement about how "muslim" is used in general, to specifically how Islamaphobes use it (however you're defining the latter group of course).
 
Sikh's and Hindus have been on the recieving end of hate crimes because the perpetrators were so ignorant they thought they were Muslims, despite there being vast differences in terms of religion and even culture.

I did say "most people" though didn't I, and most people don't go around committing hate crimes.

So now we've got the point of saying that anyone that refers to "muslims" as a group, a) is definitely including Sikhs and b) probably wants to beat them up.
 
No, just that the bigots can barely tell the difference between the two, so perhaps they base it more upon skin colour than actual religious belief, otherwise why are they targetting non-islamic faiths when their intent is to harass Muslims?
 
I don't remember arguing that actual violent racists aren't primarily concerned with race...
 
and how racist not concern with race? I thought they are suppose to be full of it lol
 
1. Defending Sarkeesian is pretty much a non-starter.
Virtually everything the dude said about her is... well... not a lie, but a "subtruth" at best.
"Alternative truth".
You know, like Trump being a successful businessman

2. I looked at the channel suggestions there.
That was worse than derping into a channel and the Rec's are mic. and Buzzfeed.
This had cotton-ceiling-busting Riley in and goddamn Big Joel. and some other persons of that ilk.

3. Because i'm a nice person i checked out the channel anyway.
And the issue remains the same as with the original video: He is doing the very things he is criticising. Non-stop. Like, if i actually did a rebuttal of 5 minutes of his material i'd need 25 minutes. Like, you have to stop virtually every second with this guy, because every clause has manipulative purpose. He's virtually incapable of saying something that is not moving goal posts, equivocating etc.
I finally lost it with his Ship of Theseus. Like: "Get a mirror, buddy!"

4. The Eboshi thing is where i got officially annoyed.
But, hey, what did i expect...
They were actually initially like "this is completely unacceptable and we won't work with it" and then when he was expected to win a seat, they went "well, we can't promise whether we'll work with him or not", over like a week. So there you go. Also, Danish politics work in blocs outside the governing coalition so even if they lose voters to Stram Kurs, he'll be part of the "blue" right wing bloc.
My point is: He's still stealing their support. Like, i presume most of his voters would be former DPP voters. (?)
So they'd rather have him implode in a couple years, before the next election anyway. No?
"easier access to ... efteruddannelse" (I don't know the English word for it. In-service education?)
Well, what it is? :)
I was pondering asking questions about Danish education anyway.
So if you have the time, feel free to elaborate.
don't invest the neccessary time
They sell keyboards starting at 4.99.
having lived in the German racist capital
See, that was your first mistake.
But hey, you have upgraded to... living in Bavaria... :cringe:
this is a bad post and you should feel bad. if you genuinely think that the colonial racist regime was not the direct cause of the genocide then you're massively ignorant. for some reasons those herders and farmers lived together for centuries without much of a problem. then, suddenly, racist science defines the everyday minutae of their lives and they go on a racist murder spree.
[...]
this is a bad post and you should feel bad. if you genuinely think that the colonial racist regime was not the direct cause of the genocide then you're massively ignorant. for some reasons those herders and farmers lived together for centuries without much of a problem. then, suddenly, racist science defines the everyday minutae of their lives and they go on a racist murder spree.
Emphasis mine.

I'm sure you can see the problem here. No? :mischief:

Btw: The timestamps on your tripple post don't exactly help to dispell a certain impression either.
 
1. Defending Sarkeesian is pretty much a non-starter.
Virtually everything the dude said about her is... well... not a lie, but a "subtruth" at best.
"Alternative truth".
You know, like Trump being a successful businessman

2. I looked at the channel suggestions there.
That was worse than derping into a channel and the Rec's are mic. and Buzzfeed.
This had cotton-ceiling-busting Riley in and goddamn Big Joel. and some other persons of that ilk.

3. Because i'm a nice person i checked out the channel anyway.
And the issue remains the same as with the original video: He is doing the very things he is criticising. Non-stop. Like, if i actually did a rebuttal of 5 minutes of his material i'd need 25 minutes. Like, you have to stop virtually every second with this guy, because every clause has manipulative purpose. He's virtually incapable of saying something that is not moving goal posts, equivocating etc.
I finally lost it with his Ship of Theseus. Like: "Get a mirror, buddy!"

4. The Eboshi thing is where i got officially annoyed.
But, hey, what did i expect...

I've found him really useful. I think your slant tints your perspective in regards to the utility of the videos, but it's up to you. I've investigated the Sarkeesian thing enough to understand that her research has serious flaws, but the overdrive hatred towards her is absolute nonsense. You might be in complete opposition to this point, and if so, sure. I don't care. I don't think Sarkeesian is relevant to this thread so I don't really want to discuss it. And, the rest, well. To understanding the rhetorical usage and dealing with it, maybe you're already used to dealing with those sorts of people properly and don't care about that content. I don't know. I learned from this to not consistently make blocks of text with proof, and to instead either ignore or be the active part, when appropriate. Because some people listen to that, and it's what extremists utilize today succesfully, simply because they don't care.

Again, it's up to you. But you shouldn't ignore this usage, and to be honest, if you find his deconstructions manipulative, you should still learn about those usages and adapt to them. I've tried to get into alt-right channels myself and listen to their techniques even if I don't agree with them, and the channel is pretty much spot on. They're very open about it internally. It's what the reality of the world is today, and one should focus on that and adapt. Just going "this guy isn't genuine when framing just the right" ignores the core issue of how a significant portion of humans work today. Like, even if he frames Sarkeesian wrong, it doesn't really matter in regards to understanding those mechanics.

That was kind of rambly and repetetive, I hope you understood. Again, really busy.

My point is: He's still stealing their support. Like, i presume most of his voters would be former DPP voters. (?)
So they'd rather have him implode in a couple years, before the next election anyway. No?

I think their reasoning is that the guy is going to get in government anyways, and the additional vote in the government does still count for something when the Danish centre (ie the Social Democrats) is as behaviorally strange as it is. Each seat is a vote for their bloc against the left, even if they lose seats to other parties than their own. The parties aren't very much operating independently even if they have independent clear policies. Bloc-internal competition is usually done during elections by making the "best" political offer, not through locking out bloc-friendly parties when elected.

Well, what it is? :)
I was pondering asking questions about Danish education anyway.
So if you have the time, feel free to elaborate.

Basically that point of education is to fund education for workers or unemployed say 30+ years. It's to counteract having people outcompeted by concurrent market demands and/or to improve the competences of them and as such try to counteract the competition from younger applicants that have similar credentials. Maybe even allow some to change careers to keep them working and happy. (Happy workers are more productive and have less issues of commitment) The SD want to fund that, while the right tries to cut down and/or privatize it.
 
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whenever someone mentions "clash of civilizations" my pseud bells ring aloud

Sorry but clearly Turkey, Iran and Saudi Arabia, those three allied stalwarts of Islamic Civilisation, are about to coordinate a common policy of military alliance against the axis of Orthodox Russia-Bulgaria-Greece.
 
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if people are racist, not matter how little, they necessarily develop their own system of racial categorization. the point I (and others) were trying to make is that these underlying systems of classifying humans are still intact in many peoples minds (western = white = good / eastern = brown = bad), but we now use different vocabulary for it, because talking about race publicly has been stigmatized. so instead "muslim" is used as an umbrella term for all kinds of brown people and our biggest cultural fears are projected onto them.
Sure. All I said in my 1st post is Islam isn't a race. I'm not denying what you're saying.

kinda silly going out of your way to call other people "idiot" when you, on the regular, don't invest the neccessary time to really try and understand what other people are saying. I was pretty clear in my post I think, even added a quote from a paper, yet it seems you still didn't get the gist of it. dialogue works better if you don't see bad intentions around every corner.
I never called you that. I was talking to Lexy. I don't need to invest too much time to understand him, his every opinion is predictable, he's like an algorithm. And he basically called me a racist for not agreeing w him. Hence idiot.
 
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