Dave Chappelle's Netflix show

Discussion in 'Off-Topic' started by amadeus, Oct 21, 2021.

  1. Drakle

    Drakle Emperor

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    This is a good and level headed video on Dave Chappelle



    (Summary - Runs through the jokes that while joking about trans people, weren't hateful vs the stuff people actually have issues, runs through various pieces of the segment, talks about how he has changed his comedy routine based on how people laughed at him when making black jokes, talks about how Dave constantly keeps harping on comparing LBGT right issues vs the Black struggle, etc).

    The whole comparing LGBT issues and Black issues is literally textbook Intersectionality. And the thing with Dave Chappelle is that he isn't a conservative troll, who is inherently bad faith. He is just a 'Boomer mindset' Gen Xer who doesn't quite understand the topic (partly because TERFs have muddied the discourse) but is also oddly interested in it. I think if you had someone articulate and knowledgeable explain the issue in the right way to him personally, he would totally get the point. The issue is that someone has to do it personally because it doesn't matter how many well-reasoned articles are written if he and others don't read them.

    Makes the point later in the video, about how Dave Chappelle wouldn't tolerate a white comedian, following the same playbook he just did against trans people, against Black people, and how society probably wouldn't tolerate it either (not in not being allowed to say it, but Netflix isn't going to pay out the nose to platform it)


    My own thought again is that Dave Chappelle is absolutely fine, each of his specials got him paid over 20 million each, and he was already wealthy. He could choose to get a role or do a new routine, literally any time he wants. He is the furthest thing from cancelled, and trying to defend him, is utterly stupid.

    You should be able to tell a comedian if you didn't think a joke was funny or didn't like the joke's content. The comedian can try and roast you, and the reaction will fall as it does. I don't think people get the punching down vs punching up distinction. It isn't that there is a totem pole where you can never joke about or mention someone 'lower down'. But there is a certain level of meanness and seriousness that is in play. If a comedian is making a white people joke, and some white guy in a suit pipes up, the comedian can roast them pretty hard and if they do it right, pretty easily get the audience on side. But if a comedian is making a joke about disabled people, and a guy in an wheelchair pipes up, a comedian trying to roast them is going to turn the audience off, unless they are amazing at the counterpunch. There are very good comedians who can do it, like Jimmy Carr is amazing at it. But a bunch of lazy and bad comedians just want to use the 'cancel culture' defense card, when nobody laughs, or they get booed. Bad comedians get boos. The thing some comedians seem to want is affirmative laugh action for bad comedians.

    Jimmy Carr is a good example because even if what he says is on its face ridiculously mean, it clearly isn't maliciously mean, it's ironic or jovial. But some bad comedians just want to unironically scream abuse and then hide behind 'its a joke'.

    Or another dimension. Some jokes about a marginalised group, are actually about mocking the people who make it bigoted comments or aren't marginalized or the comedian. Like if a comedian is saying what is on paper bigoted stuff about women, but the joke is that is what, he a dumb guy thinks.

    But the thing is, the stuff that Dave Chappelle is in the most 'trouble' for, isn't a joke. Like he declares himself a TERF (that's a Trans exclusionary Radical Feminist, so he is using the term wrong anyway) and says JK Rowling is right (who actually is one). He also says that trans women are women, so either way he is misunderstanding the issue because those are not compatible positions to hold. Like if a non Black comedian is doing a bunch of jokes on Black issues, some on point, some edging over the line. Then just straight facedly saying, oh yeah, I'm a White Nationalist or a KKK member. That's going to piss people off. Other stuff, like the whole pitting LGBT issues vs Black issues. It isn't really normal jokes, he actually just has an axe to grind and is just saying what he thinks. Being a comedian isn't an everything proof shield against criticism. If Netflix had a news program, where a presenter on air just ranted about gay people, it would get outcry. It's not a comedian-specific thing.

    But moreover, I'm just sick of the endless cancel culture whining. Comedians have been whining about comedy being dead because of PC culture and sensitivity forever. Shut up and tell jokes, we don't need the whining in between the jokes.
     
    Last edited: Oct 22, 2021
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  2. warpus

    warpus In pork I trust

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    Have some people forgotten that Dave Chapelle is a comedian and not a sociologist? He goes up on stage to tell fart jokes, not explain theses on human behaviour backed up by peer reviewed studies.

    It's easy to turn off the TV if you hear something so offensive you just can't handle it. If that sort of humour is not for you then that's fine, we all have our tastes and limits.

    When are these people going to turn on South Park? I've heard 200x more offensive material on that show than anything Dave's ever said.
     
  3. Gorbles

    Gorbles Load Balanced

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    Presumably, if South Park ever made a point of punching down at a marginalised minority (which it has done, repeatedly), people would criticise it. Therefore, presumably, people already have.

    Humour doesn't have to be offensive. Comedians choose to be. In doing so, are you saying people shouldn't be allowed to criticise these choices?

    Besides, ignoring "should everything be absolved so long as the intent is humourous" for a minute, Chapelle didn't just tell jokes. He weighed in on (among other things) JK Rowling's (unscientific) opinions on sex and gender. I don't think anyone's saying a comedian should never insert real-world commentary, because there are many ways it can be made relevant to the piece at hand, but again, we come back to choice.
     
  4. stinkubus

    stinkubus Emperor

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    You aren't going to hear a peep about South Park because they aren't all that relevant in the broader, popular culture at this time.

    All that's really going on now is Dave Chapelle is getting a bunch of free press. Media companies now also have a convenient excuse to cut ties with talent who make themselves a liability.

    The fact that Chapelle consistently gets high profile work while breaking the "rules" really ought to lay bare just how much of a canard "cancel culture" is. People aren't getting fired because they say controversial things. They are getting fired because they aren't earners AND they say controversial things which makes them not worth the trouble.

    Wake me up when the "cancel culture" cry babies want to have a real conversation about how much power employers have over employees.
     
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  5. Kyriakos

    Kyriakos Creator

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    There'd be a point if the potus or some other high-ranking state official said something against LGBT, but no one should care about tv/media personalities, imo. If your boss is biased against your type, there is a serious issue; if some passer-by is biased, it's just life.
     
  6. stinkubus

    stinkubus Emperor

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    I'm going to have to respectfully disagree with this. Someone or something must be the butt of the joke. Any and all attempts at humor are potentially offensive to someone.
     
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  7. Kyriakos

    Kyriakos Creator

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    No one was the butt of the joke when Purdo took off Gooby's face, because Purdo is so dumb/crazy that he actually thought wearing Gooby's face would make Dafty think he is Gooby.
    And I found it funny :) Gooby pls used to be good, in a bizarre and brutal kind of way.

    Another example would be those vile Pearls before Swine (or how it's called) things that @Arakhor fawns over. They rarely attack anyone, and are centered on lame puns.
     
  8. Gorbles

    Gorbles Load Balanced

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    Sure, let me rephrase. Humour doesn't have to be offensive towards other people, or even people at all. Like you said, someone or something. The comic still has the element of choice.

    The choice to generalise any particular demographic is still a choice, and there are times when targeting that demographic is going to attract criticism. Whether or not that criticism is understandable or not will depend on a lot of real-world factors. For example, I don't think anybody would be trying this discussion if the demographic was something like Jewish people (unless the comic in question was also Jewish, as an in-joke style of skit). Anybody reasonable, at least. So it's not a matter of whether or not some demographics shouldn't be joked about, it's a matter of which demographics those demographics are.
     
    Last edited: Oct 22, 2021
  9. NovaKart

    NovaKart شێری گەورە

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    What is unscientific about JK Rowling’s opinion on sex?
     
  10. warpus

    warpus In pork I trust

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    What's happening has gone well beyond "Criticism". Criticism would have been: "We don't like this show and will not be watching any more, kthxbye"

    And of course humour doesn't have to be offensive. But it can be and you can't expect that to ever go away. That's the problem here - instead of simply being critical (which is fine), the call is for Netflix to never again show this sort of content. And that's a fine opinion to have really. In my opinion most reality TV shows should not be on the air either. It's a fine opinion, but I'd never expect anyone to listen to it just because I was yelling louder than the people who watch it and want it to stay on the air.

    Offensive standup has a long history. Have you ever heard of George Carlin? He was one of the first who dared to say things that were at the time considered politically incorrect. Why would he do such a thing? To make people laugh. Did it work? Yeah, you can watch some of his videos and see for yourself. Those who did not want to see such "offensive" content on TV of course rallied to shut him down, but luckily they were not successful in that objective. And hopefully in this case Dave comes out on top as well.

    You don't have a right to not be offended. Sure, you can do something about it when it happens, like change the channel. But you don't have the right to shut someone up just because it makes you feel bad, unless they are breaking some sort of law, which the vast majority of comedians aren't.
     
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  11. Gorbles

    Gorbles Load Balanced

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    Considering how active you've been in the various threads on the subject, I can't read this as anything less than disingenuous ;)

    Carlin was often offensive, you're absolutely right. I've more than heard of him, thanks. But I'm glad you raised him as someone who you think helps your point, because he made this point himself:



    Nobody is shutting Dave Chapelle up. Factually. It's not happening. He's not shutting up. Even if all of his stuff was removed from Netflix, it would not be shutting him up. He isn't owed a platform. He isn't silenced without one.
     
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  12. Drakle

    Drakle Emperor

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    This is a good point that I think people are missing.

    The US is broadly, an at-will employment country. You can get fired for almost any reason, except protected classes. And even they can get fired, for these reasons, just with a different stated one.

    Conservatives of course hate protected classes because that's how they want to discriminate, by race, sex, gender, religion, etc.

    But now they basically want to make bigotry and anti-vaxxer nonsense a protected class. The anti-vaxxer one they've already signed bills into law, preventing 'discrimination' against unvaccinated people in some states. Some want to make political ideology a protected class, which trying to remove gender identity as one. So you can fire a trans person, but you aren't allowed to fire a Nazi. And firing a trans person for being trans is bigoted nonsense while firing a Nazi from a workplace is a very valid reason.

    Netflix just fired a black, pregnant trans employee who protested internally about the special. So literally the people who are getting cancelled, are trans people, not Dave Chappelle. A black LGBT person, who Dave Chapelle ignored by pretending only white people are LGBT. He got paid, this was the last special in his contract anyway. The reason they cited for the first one (who was reinstated) was first that they came to a meeting they weren't supposed to, but it turns out they were invited. Then the next one was accused of leaking data and fired, despite telling people to not leak, thinking it would hurt the walkout movement.

    And labor striking for moral reasons, outside of benefits is absolutely a common thing, not out of control modern-day woke Netflix employees. British cotton weavers whose livelihood depended on Southern Cotton, supported the Union war effort, against the owners who were sympathetic to the Southern Cotton Plantation owners. No, this issue isn't the same as slavery, but that is what workers in the 1860s did, in relation to the industry they were dependent on.

    Vague. SOME people are saying that. Some people are just saying it wasn't funny, or it was stupid. Some people are saying that Dave Chapelle can say whatever he wants, but that Netflix shouldn't spend 20 million (more than they spent on Squid Game), and heavily promoting it. However that all get wrapped up together into the cancel culture boogyman where the dreaded SJWs are going to burn non-woke people at the stake. And a lot of the special is self-reflective, 'oh I'm going to get canceled for this'.

    It is actively bad for comedy that so many comedians do that. Dave is a funny guy, but his earlier stuff is much funnier because he isn't constantly talking about cancellation, or ranting instead of making jokes.

    The issue is gender.

    Sex is biological and is bimodal. There are Men/Males and Women/Females, along with some intersex people, and different chromosomes and such. Not every man is as 'manly', and not every woman is as 'feminine, but the biological differences are clear. No serious person believes that trans women can give birth or that trans men can produce sperm. That's not the issue at play. However Trans people, do have some differences, primarily their brain patterns are more like the other, nonbiological sex.

    Gender is the socially constructed role that society has in regards to Men and Women. Stuff like men like cars, women like makeup. Some preferences have some basis in biology, but a lot are just the norms that society has at the time. If you told French nobles, or Revolutionary-era Americans that men don't wear makeup and wigs ever, only women did, they would think you were mad or foreign. Society's norm regarding gender have shifted all over the place depending on time and culture.

    Trans people want to change their gender presentation. They want to appear and act like the other gender. This is to varying degrees. Some just dress as to how they prefer and/or use different pronouns. Some uses hormones to appear physically more like their preferred gender (what their brain is telling them, they should look like). And then some use hormones and sex reassignment surgery. Which they don't believe makes you a biological woman who can give birth. But it could one day, create the ability to have children, as surgery and artificial womb technology improves.

    JK Rowling doesn't want Trans women, included as females in terms of gender. She conflates sex and gender as the same thing when they aren't. TERFs are also obsessed with trans women, as being 'invaders' of female space, and use the same arguments that conservatives do, about them being predatory perverts. Not the overwhelming opinion, of psychologists and medical professionals, that they have gender dysphoria, and that letting them present as their preferred gender is the correct medical diagnosis. That they shouldn't be able to use the bathroom of their preference, and she defended the bigoted comments that another TERF made.

    He literally got Netflix to remove his old content.
     
  13. Birdjaguar

    Birdjaguar Hanafubuki Super Moderator Supporter

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  14. warpus

    warpus In pork I trust

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    If all this was was some people saying: "That wasn't funny" this would not even be a story. Nobody would care. There are always people who don't find a comedy special funny, that's the nature of the business.

    I want to see more comedy standup shows on Netflix, so I would be against calls for them to spend less money producing or promoting content like that. But of course it's fair and okay to voice a dissenting opinion. It just seems to have blown up wellll beyond that.

    Usually when somebody doesn't find a comedy special funny, they walk out or change the channel. Some people will voice their discontent with the comedy by writing about it. Taking to the streets to protest Netflix seems like going way overboard here. It's hard to take these protests seriously, given what sorts of other content already exists on Netflix that's a lot more offensive than anything Dave has ever said.
     
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  15. Aiken_Drumn

    Aiken_Drumn Prince

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    Dave is nearly 50.. is that hold Gen Xers are now!? :old:
     
  16. NovaKart

    NovaKart شێری گەورە

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    I was responding to the post that JK Rowling has an unscientific opinion on sex. From reading her essay it looks like she does know the difference between sex and gender.
     
  17. TheMeInTeam

    TheMeInTeam Top Logic

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    Which news source has a broad policy of avoiding something that gets the world up in arms? Whose practice actually fits THAT model? I can think of 0 major networks, and struggle to think of even small content creators that shy away from news that gets people up in arms. Avoiding that stuff isn't how news works.

    I don't know about his motives and don't really care, but it says a lot about how "free" speech is when you have privileged classes for speech and compel it. If people don't enjoy what he says, he will lose his audience. Don't need a special public outcry for that.

    It depends on the standards you're using to determine what counts. I don't know to what degree his comment was made ironically or unironically though, or whether he was going for a deeper message or just making that as a straight up claim.

    Though I guess when it comes to stuff like this, people wouldn't have any standards if they didn't have double standards.

    That's a valid question for Netflix to ask of every show Netflix runs. Normally, having more content available is strictly better than not having it, unless the price of acquiring it is too high. You would have to get into either illegal stuff or really awful material to merit shutting content down that people would otherwise pay to watch (awful in this case measured by losing more viewers to outrage than you'd gain).

    Has he? I haven't followed him over the years, but I didn't get that impression in hearing other people talk about him. He's never seemed to care about hurting feelings in the broad sense.

    Calling BS on that. Say what you want about Rogan or Gina Carano, but they are earners in the strict sense for their respective employers, and the decision to censor or (in Carano's case) get rid of them does not appear to have any legitimate ties to decreased earnings. People can and do get fired despite being net earners, and in some cases highly positive net earners. Same deal when google dropped that guy over the gender memo. Companies seem happy to virtue signal, even at the expense of their own ethics and (sometimes) earnings.

    Google/YouTube have a lot to answer for wrt unjust enrichment, given how they behave with their "ToS". The concept of "void for vagueness" (in the contract sense, not the criminal sense) needs to be slapped across its collective face repeatedly, too.
     
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  18. Drakle

    Drakle Emperor

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    You are plainly wrong. This is a massive media Eco system devoted to hyping up the SJW threat or whining about woke media, for clicks and political purposes. Even if it bullfeathers, or a nothing burger. And comedians constantly complain about being cancelled, even when they very clearly aren't and what they mean is, someone anywhere didn't like what they said,

    Companies also often deliberately incite controversy for attention.

    Anyway, the people walking out aren't saying, this is unfunny and so should be pulled. They are saying that trans people are a discriminated against group, with violence often inflicted against them (trans panic) and that bigoted behaviour against them shouldn't be elevated. Dave wasn't saying to hurt them of course, but that's the point they were making, in their eyes, it isn't just we don't like offensive jokes. It is, being trans is dangerous, and we think a big part of that is the culture of bigotry towards them. You can debate it either way. But the person at the centre of this, when it came down to Offensive jokes about black people, censored his own material. He isn't a equal opportunity offender, he clearly understands the basic mindset of the people protesting him.

    My point was that you are bundling, many different reactions.

    She is against medical transition which is the medical treatment prescribed by all reputable healthcare bodies and psychologists. Comparing it to gay conversion therapy which is religious nuts torturing gay people into being straight. Absolutely wrong and stupid.


    Edit - hilarious that the @TheMeInTeam is whining about free speech, when he has me blocked, for offending him, by arguing with him.
     
    Last edited: Oct 22, 2021
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  19. warpus

    warpus In pork I trust

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    Literally no part of what Dave said would drive anyone to violence. Have you even listened to this thing? Can you point me to the part that incites violence?

    If anyone turns to violence after going to a comedy show, then the problem lies with that person and not the comedian. Surely, clearly, definitely.
     
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  20. Drakle

    Drakle Emperor

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    I'm saying that is what the walkout groups are saying, very clearly. Fine, you disagree.

    But Dave Chappelle, the person you are defending, does not hold to that view when it comes to comedy in regards to black people. That's just a fact. The show literally laments the lack of progress that Black people are making. He blames it on a stupid reason, LGBT rights. But that's just a fact. He literally isn't a say whatever you want, and nobody can say or do anything about it guy. If a white comedian run that same routine and said they were a white nationalist and was getting paid to put it on Netflix, he would probably support protests against Netflix.

    Also, its not a free speech issue if Netflix or anybody else, hosts content or not, since I know @TheMeInTeam is whining. Free Speech is about government censorship, not if private companies give you a platform or not.
     
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