Dawn of Civilization - an RFC modmod by Leoreth

[Linkman226]

That's a good point. It certainly wouldn't be worth the work.

 

[civ_king]

How many floodplains did you add? I hoped to be able to refrain from placing them on grass with the new UP and some rice resources. Giving them unlimited specialists without a drawback (and not being able to use Slavery was a major drawback in BtS) would be too powerful, but you raise a good point in all the priest slots. Maybe their UP could make them able to use priest slots as "free" slots, i.e. with two scientist slots and two priest slots they can either hire 2 scientists and 2 priests or 4 scientists.

On the matter of the UB, the Mausoleum is rather Mughal flavoured anway, and they will be outsourced into a minor civ at some point anyway. Do you have any idea for a building that would represent something health related?

I put floodplain on almost every tile of the Ganges (except the forest and rice tiles), likewise with Indus and two tiles on the funky river a little SE of the Indus. Could you perhaps also add the Brahmaputra?



Perhaps something Ayurveda related?

 

[great.taurus]

I'm a little flip-flopping on that, but setting up three goals for a civ whose prime lasted only 200 years seemed a little contrived to me.

I don't know how you feel about it, but there were several suggestions in the Civilizations in Abundance thread about the Mughal's civ representing a line from Delhi Sultanate-> Mughals -> Pakistan. Excluding 100 years or so of colonial rule, this would give them something like an 800 year history.

Just something to think about, I guess.

 

[Linkman226]

Perhaps something Ayurveda related?

Goal: 1) Obtain three sources of lead (each provides -2 health)

2) Be the first to reach the technology "Quack Science"

What's next, giving the Chinese an acupuncture role?

 

[ilduce349]

I've also thought about his offhand comment that it's hard to get the historical specialist economy working, and now that Caste System isn't a civic anymore I wondered if we should give India "The Power of Castes": all scientists, artists and merchants produce +1 food. So you can get a specialist economy with much lower costs, resulting in a historically large population.

My biggest problem with that is the European colonists, India's population didn't suddenly die when the British invaded...

I have made some changes to India, adding more resources turning all the desert territories into plains. I will shortly play test to see how this effects india's growth rate.

 

[Leoreth]

I don't know how you feel about it, but there were several suggestions in the Civilizations in Abundance thread about the Mughal's civ representing a line from Delhi Sultanate-> Mughals -> Pakistan. Excluding 100 years or so of colonial rule, this would give them something like an 800 year history.

Just something to think about, I guess.

I could see Mughals -> Pakistan, but why do people always think there's continuity from the Delhi Sultanate to the Mughals? The Mughals were descendants of the Timurids who took Northern India from them by force.

Goal: 1) Obtain three sources of lead (each provides -2 health)

2) Be the first to reach the technology "Quack Science"

What's next, giving the Chinese an acupuncture role?

Acupuncture is incredibly relaxing!

And just because some Ayurveda practices are bogus one shouldn't discredit the significance it has on Indian medicine. More pressing problems are: how to call an institution where Ayurveda is practiced and which building should it replace?

My biggest problem with that is the European colonists, India's population didn't suddenly die when the British invaded...

I have made some changes to India, adding more resources turning all the desert territories into plains. I will shortly play test to see how this effects india's growth rate.

But I could imagine that a colonial rule that disrupts the traditional order of society won't get the same results from the land as its natives.

Here's how my India looks like in 3000 BC:

Spoiler :

(that picture is still missing one gem resource 1S of Varanasi)

The swamp at the Indus will disappear in 0 AD and all desert tiles there get flood plains. This is how the map already starts in 600 AD.

 

[Linkman226]

The Power of Castes is a terrible, terrible idea. It'd be like giving America the power of chattel slavery or something. Just as offensive.

 

[ilduce349]

I'd rather see them start on Indus, if we are making a change...

 

[Leoreth]

The Power of Castes is a terrible, terrible idea. It'd be like giving America the power of chattel slavery or something. Just as offensive.

I see your point, but we're in a historical setting where oppressive systems shouldn't be excluded as if they weren't there.

I suppose your problem is that an UP would inseparably connect this to the Indian civ, right?

I'd rather see them start on Indus, if we are making a change...

But it's impossible to believably model the collapse of the IVC.

 

[Linkman226]

I see your point, but we're in a historical setting where oppressive systems shouldn't be excluded as if they weren't there.

I suppose your problem is that an UP would inseparably connect this to the Indian civ, right?

I'm not saying we shouldn't exclude them as if they weren't there, and the inseperableness isn't even the major problem. The issue I have is that the caste system is called a unique POWER. As if is there is something good about it, or that it contributed to India's success.

But it's impossible to believably model the collapse of the IVC.

Barbs?

 

[Linkman226]

Moreover the caste system realistically should stifle a specialist economy because it prevents people from pursuing the professions they choose, therefore nipping in the bud countless talented people.

 

[J. pride]

I could see Mughals -> Pakistan, but why do people always think there's continuity from the Delhi Sultanate to the Mughals? The Mughals were descendants of the Timurids who took Northern India from them by force.

Doesn't that sounds similar to:

Duchy of Moscow taking over Keivan Rus
Qing Dynasty taking over Ming Dynasty
Abbasids took over the Ummayad.

I dont think you should use that excuese when there civs that represent half a dozen dynasties over 900 years (Arabs) or two dozen civs in 4000 years (China) or just three dynastines like Russia. The reason you cam pair together Delhi Sultanate and Mughals is because in many ways they were similar including religion and area and even capital.

Barbs?

Whats the point? The fact that those cities were destroyed in just 25 turn (gameplay) and the fact that IVC is just as related to India as Hattatus is to Turkey.

 

[Linkman226]

I'm not saying that the IVC should be added, only that this would be the most "realistic" way

 

[Leoreth]

Moreover the caste system realistically should stifle a specialist economy because it prevents people from pursuing the professions they choose, therefore nipping in the bud countless talented people.

Yeah, that was the original reason why I removed Caste System as a civic.

It's still true that classical and early medieval India did have a specialist oriented society. What if we rename the UP to the power of Varna(s)? That term is related to the Indian/Hindu caste system, but usually doesn't imply the endogamous aspect and is more descriptive than proscriptive.

 

[ilduce349]

Moreover the caste system realistically should stifle a specialist economy because it prevents people from pursuing the professions they choose, therefore nipping in the bud countless talented people.

However at the same time caste encourages specialization at a young age, since you loose the option to choose, you job is decided for you at birth, giving you ample time to specialize allowing for an increase in specialization.

I think that is the reason Caste allows for unlimited specialists.

 

[J. pride]

Not true. Such things are auto-balanced by the game.

Then how do you explain the Ai being able to found Toaism and Confucianism in normal but the human (illduce) not being able to do so in marathon

Check post 3908 for screenshots.

 

[ilduce349]

Cause I over expanded. When I ran out of things to build, I started building settlers.

Knowing my mistake, I doubt playing again would lead to the same problem.

I was 17 turns (6 turns on regular speed) short of finding them.

 

[Linkman226]

 

[BenZL43]

And that is ...?

I'm still researching for some of the cities..
Like Vijayapura, the precursor to modern Brunei..
I'm thinking about the era-based city change.. what do you think?
If you agree I'll get the list soon

Who already populated the Indochina peninsula then?

As you can see in that animation I once linked to..
There were Mon.. Lao.. Viet.. Champa.. Khmer too..
But Khmer weren't as solid as in 802AD when they establish the Khmer Empire..
There was Funan kingdom, which is also a vassal of Sri Vijaya..
Whatever the point is.. IMO Sri Vijaya should spawn first way way way before Khmer existed..

As proven by those Chola maps, yeah

It's like the worse map I ever seen.. Though Chola give major attack to Sri Vijaya.. they never ever get to Borneo =____________=

Can we just implement something like the multi-respawn thing? Like IVC, collapse. Respawn at 500 as Maurya, collapse. Respawn at 1600s as Maratha, collapse. Respawn at 1940s as Republic of India.. etc?

Also
I've consulted Google.. and both of us can't find any religion-based war that involve Buddhism/Confucianism/Taoism...
In my game as Korea, China were annoyed when I spawn because I'm Buddhist and they're Confucianism..

And neither Confucianism nor Buddhism or Taoism have been the state religion of China..
Confucianism and Taoism are more like Philosophy, not a religion..

Another thing
Just playtest as Arab.
Oh my god!
Turn 1 : Found Makkah
Turn 2 : Jerusalem & Sur flip
Turn 3 : Raze Babylonia, get settler in Baghdad, Shush flip
Turn 4 : Kem Kasir flip. Rome declare war
Turn 5 : Gallabat flip. Ethiopia adopt Islam
Inflation into (-57/Turn..)

 

[Linkman226]

You could do what edead did and I did. Make the Eastern religions count as the same religion but with only halved or quartered bonuses. The people of the Far East are generally very eclectic about these things