Dawn of Civilization - an RFC modmod by Leoreth

[The Turk]

More Responces:

I recently played a game as the Arabs, to test them out on Monarch level. What a disaster!

I understand you want to make the Byzantines more power or what not, but seriously, not to the point where they are gathering armies to capture a poorly defended Egypt best by barbarian elephants and camel archers on all sides!

I would therefore recommend having Camel Archers have a bonus against mounted units (which makes sense), but also this would help against the Byzantine Cataphrats, who seem to win more often than not, between a Arab-Byzantine skirmish, which impedes growth tremendously

I would also suggest having the two useless spearmen in Cairo, be changed to ONE longbowman

So if these things were implemented, then I think the Arabs would get a better fighting chance. Now for what we give the Byzantines as compensation.

I would suggest giving them two cities, Dyrrachium (on the Adriatic coast, NW of Constantinople), and Bari in Southern Italy. I would suggest that the Italian Renaissance civ that spawns, does not spawn ALL of Italy, but just Rome up, rather than the south as well, that way they will need to unite the peninsula and drive out the Byzantines from their lands if they wish, OR the Byzantines could reunite the Italian peninsula under their rule. Anyway, the point being that this would help them overall.

As for Persia, which was easy (and should remain easy) to capture, I realized they STILL had Zoroastrianism in TWO cities!? I would therefore highly recommend that you do one of the following:
1. Remove Zoroastrianism altogether and instead replace it with:

a.Judaism (which would randomly spread around Europe as a minor religion (like in SoI and RFCE)​

b.Orthodox Christianity (spawning in 1054 in Constantinople)​

2. Keep Zoroastrianism and when the Arabs capture it, you can delete the religion (plus the Holy City)

a. I would even suggest implementing the "New Arab UP", which can be found on the RFC mod forum, which basically deletes any pre-existing religion, which would also allow the Arabs to remove Buddhism from some of the other places​

3. A tad trickier, but you can do what Edead did, and have the religion be scripted to disappear over time, at a certain date, which would be cool (also the Buddhism, could be scripted to disappear)

PS. For the 600 AD start, can you please move the stone in Mesopotamia (Iraq) one tile West, so you can build Baghdad easier. Frankly, its really easy to do, I can even do it, so if you could do it, that would be great!

Also, why did you never get the Arab AI to build Baghdad and make it their capital? I would suggest you do that, as it would make for more interesting gameplay, especially if you respawn the Persians.

 

[Cethegus]

Well I'm happy you'll think about it, but to curry favor in support of this, I would like to remind you that it will make the Mongols more hostile to the Chinese who are never Buddhist, we will more Mongol vassalizations of the Khmer, which would definitely make the game more interesting, and it could also rival Japan more frequently, as it would have an increased chance at attacking a Taoist Japan. Also, just having that one Buddhist Missionary, would help the Mongols start off with a state religion, and they could later switch, when they are bombarded by other religions.

Why are you so fixated on seeing RFC as history simulation? What about in case Japan goes Buddhist instead? Mutual co-existence and prosperous vassaldom under the Mongol umbrella?

Well, in any case I would like you to read about the Mongol invasions of Japan and bear in mind, history is full of such insane displays of luck. I know "replaying" history is fun, but you shouldn't try to force it so much. I agree on making Mongols more aggressive and menacing for the duration of their historical rule, but enough's enough. Don't they already start at war with China? If not, they should.

More Responces:I understand you want to make the Byzantines more power or what not, but seriously, not to the point where they are gathering armies to capture a poorly defended Egypt best by barbarian elephants and camel archers on all sides!

Why not? Isn't that what they historically did? Why hamper their growth when they should be the Second Rome by legacy? I don't get why you prefer to play a game seeing small countries reprenting local governments and not megalomaniac empires ran by despots.
Conquering Italy is fine too. Oh, and I suppose that was 3000 BC start?

Also, why did you never get the Arab AI to build Baghdad and make it their capital? I would suggest you do that, as it would make for more interesting gameplay, especially if you respawn the Persians.

Yes, but what about a respawning Babylonia? Better, what about a still living Babylonia? They reign on the same area. It would have to be scripted for them to be wiped out for that to work. And while you might not have a problem with it, it's just not right. Not for other players, and not for Babylon.

But to suggest something in its place... is it wrong to move Babylon 1E? That would ensure a Baghdad later when Arabs or Turks conquer it and make it possible to support auto-moving the Palace there. Given Baghdad's importance in history and how the Arab UP works, I don't consider it such a long shot.

Spoiler :

It would also compliment with The Turk's suggestion of including the Grand Mosque of Baghdad in the game.

By the way, good thing you renamed Istanbul pre-name change.

 

[The Turk]

Why are you so fixated on seeing RFC as history simulation? What about in case Japan goes Buddhist instead? Mutual co-existence and prosperous vassaldom under the Mongol umbrella?

I'm not, but when the game is so far from it, like seeing Taoism rule the world, I have to ring some bells. And I don't understand what your talking about with Japan? I'm very happy for them to become Buddhist, I don't know if I would go as far as saying that they SHOULD get a Buddhist missionary from the start (as they had their own competing religion; Shintoism), but I would say that more often then not, they should become Buddhist, to be able to vassalize Khmer and attack China more often, I would really like to see Japan in China more often. And we ALL know that Mongolia is NEVER going to invade Japan by sea; (except if being played by the human).

Why not? Isn't that what they historically did? Why hamper their growth when they should be the Second Rome by legacy?
Conquering Italy is fine too. Oh, and I suppose that was 3000 BC start?

Ok, the Byzantines were great, I'll be the first to say that, but they can't be SOO powerful, especially considering that at that point in history, they were slowly crumbling, the Arabs should confine them to Turkey and Greece, and kick them out of everywhere else (Jerusalem, Egypt, North Africa), because currently once the Arabs spawn and take one or two of their cities, they go on a counter offensive which is bad. And the reason I say that Camel Archers should get a bonus against mounted untis is because, it is a well known fact that camels scare horses, and should be at least a bit more superior to Cataphrats, so that is more like a 60% - 40% battle (in favor of the Arabs), versus the 30% - 70% it is now. Camel Archers don't stand much a chance against Catapharats. Also giving them two new cities, one in the Balkans and one in Southern Italy, will lead for some MUCH interesting gameplay, compared to them just clashing with the Arabs, they'll also clash more with European powers, which both historically happened, and should happen (as it rarely does now)

Yes, but what about a respawning Babylonia? Better, what about a still living Babylonia? They reign on the same area. It would have to be scripted for them to be wiped out for that to work. And while you might not have a problem with it, it's just not right. Not for other players, and not for Babylon.

Ok, I was talking about 600 AD start, you can do what you want with 3000 BC start, because I don't play it anyway, and I'm not too considered with it. Babylonia, when it respawns, needs to be looked upon as Iraq, no longer the ancient civilization it used to be. Currently they respawn in the 20 or 19th century, which is good because, they can be Iraq (plus they have Islam). The point of having Persia respawn earlier though, is so that they can constest Arabia in this area, and fight for control of Mesopotamia, which would be epic; then if the Arabs:
a. Collapse
or
b. move their capital to Cairo, Egypt (which would be really cool),
then, you could have the Iraqi's (Babylonians), respawn and use Baghdad as they're new capital, rather than those crappy cities they build, with ancient Mesopotamian names, which no one in the modern world has heard of. Thats also why, I would recommend changing the Babylonian city map to the Arabian city map so that they can build proper Iraqi cities if they want. And then they too, could fight against the Persians.


On that note, of respawning Islamic Empires (eg. Iraq and Persia), I would also strongly suggest respawning India as the Mughal Dynasty in the 16th century. First you could have Islam be scripted to spawn in Delhi and Pataliputra (the Northern cities), and you could therefore have the Mughals spawn, as an Islamic Empire, and fight off the Persians and the Khmer (who for some reason love taking parts of India).

If you implement these respawns, I can ASSURE you, you will have MUCH MUCH more interesting gameplay; plus on the upside, it would also stop the effing Ottomans from taking control of Persia and India, which I hate so....

Spoiler :

so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so.................

VERY MUCH!!

Anyway, I hope that displays my feelings for the terrible Ottoman Eastward expansion; but basically my point is, that it would make Mesopotamia a battle ground, between the Arabs, Persians and Turks, and later you would have an independent Iraqi state respawn in the 20th century (with Nationalism)

 

[kairob]

As Arabia you can get from Algeria to Pakistan before the Turks arrive. I don't think they need improving I just think that maybe you need to improve. Also you need those spearmen to defend Egypt from barbs (upgrade to Pikemen once you get the tech).

 

[The Turk]

As Arabia you can get from Algeria to Pakistan before the Turks arrive. I don't think they need improving I just think that maybe you need to improve. Also you need those spearmen to defend Egypt from barbs (upgrade to Pikemen once you get the tech).

Ok, well I first tried it on Emperor and then on Monarch, (most people play on Monarch, right?) and both times I got a very strong Byzantium. And getting to all those lands before or after the Turks spawn is not what I'm talking about. I would suggest you re-read what I have posted. The Byzantines need to be slightly weakened, in the Middle East, but I would like to see them start off with more territory in Europe, especially in Italy, where I would suggest them to have two cities (Bari in Southern Italy and Palermo in Sicily), but that might make them TOO powerful.

And I don't think the impi's need pikemen to protect against them...
I have only seen Alexandria get attacked by Elephants and Camel archers, but I see your point; but anyway thats not what I'm here for to get done.

 

[kairob]

I have never played Prince. I have just upgraded from Monarch to Emperor.

 

[The Turk]

I have never played Prince. I have just upgraded from Monarch to Emperor.

whooops.... sorry, I meant Monarch
I'm so used to playing SoI now, that I forgot the old difficulty levels
But yes, I've played all ranges, mostly on Monarch though.

 

[fabe]

Holy sh*t, switching the language to English solved my problem
Btw, what about changing Spain's colour to "light orange"? When both Spain and the HRE are dark yellow/gold, you don't have enough contrast on the map. I already changed the colour and "I like!".
But besides from this, Leoreth: EINFACH 'N GEILET TEIL!

 

[Leoreth]

I understand you want to make the Byzantines more power or what not, but seriously, not to the point where they are gathering armies to capture a poorly defended Egypt best by barbarian elephants and camel archers on all sides!

The Byzantines are not balanced at all yet, so all complaints you have should they be overpowered will be (and would have been) addressed before the version would be released. This applies to both the player challenge and Byzantium as an AI opponent.

I'm thankful that you provide information about them, but more information (like pictures) would be more helpful than clamoring what an outrage this is. It's an unofficial version for a reason.

I would therefore recommend having Camel Archers have a bonus against mounted units (which makes sense), but also this would help against the Byzantine Cataphrats, who seem to win more often than not, between a Arab-Byzantine skirmish, which impedes growth tremendously

Camel archers already have a +25% against cavalry.

I would also suggest having the two useless spearmen in Cairo, be changed to ONE longbowman

I'd rather have the Arabian be able to defeat the Byzantines on their own. Again, should they be too strong, they will get nerfed in the future.

I would suggest giving them two cities, Dyrrachium (on the Adriatic coast, NW of Constantinople), and Bari in Southern Italy.

Bari would be nigh useless if Dyrrachium is present, which is already part of Byzantium's core and flips if it's present.

I would suggest that the Italian Renaissance civ that spawns, does not spawn ALL of Italy, but just Rome up, rather than the south as well, that way they will need to unite the peninsula and drive out the Byzantines from their lands if they wish, OR the Byzantines could reunite the Italian peninsula under their rule. Anyway, the point being that this would help them overall.

This is already the case, Italy's core only extends to Rome to the south.

As for Persia, which was easy (and should remain easy) to capture, I realized they STILL had Zoroastrianism in TWO cities!? I would therefore highly recommend that you do one of the following:
[...]

a. I would even suggest implementing the "New Arab UP", which can be found on the RFC mod forum, which basically deletes any pre-existing religion, which would also allow the Arabs to remove Buddhism from some of the other places​

Doing this is rather easy, and I've already thought about implementing this in the future (which I've already told you iirc).

PS. For the 600 AD start, can you please move the stone in Mesopotamia (Iraq) one tile West, so you can build Baghdad easier. Frankly, its really easy to do, I can even do it, so if you could do it, that would be great!

Also, why did you never get the Arab AI to build Baghdad and make it their capital? I would suggest you do that, as it would make for more interesting gameplay, especially if you respawn the Persians.

In general, please don't always assume that something that's missing from the modmod (especially when talking about unofficial versions from the SVN), is so because ...

a.) I can't do it
b.) didn't want to do it
c.) doing it out of malice

... because it's much more likely it's because ...

d.) I didn't have the time to do it
e.) I want to it later when other aspects are finished

Don't get me wrong, I appreciate feedback, but it'd be welcome if it were a bit more constructive.

Holy sh*t, switching the language to English solved my problem
Btw, what about changing Spain's colour to "light orange"? When both Spain and the HRE are dark yellow/gold, you don't have enough contrast on the map. I already changed the colour and "I like!".
But besides from this, Leoreth: EINFACH 'N GEILET TEIL!

Hehe Gut dass es dir gefällt

I'm still surprised this is the reason, though, because I didn't change anything to the main menu compared to RFC vanilla. It's probably better to play this in English anyway, because there's some text that's in English only (and would appear so in the German version as well).

On the colors: I can't bring myself to take "their" color away from the Spanish, although your right that they look quite similar to Germany now. I'd appreciate a screenshot of a light orange Spain, though

 

[fabe]

Here you go, some screenshots (not yet from DoC but from RFC-Marathon:

 

[Leoreth]

Thanks. I still can't bring myself to do it, though

 

[fabe]

I see your point, but I'd go rather with the better contrast as with leaving Spain their colours. But changing colours is no big deal, so it's up to everyone's flavour

 

[Leoreth]

Exactly

 

[fabe]

Well...I played a few first turns, and I was wondering about some things. But, at first, I LOVE the Mod even more the whole idea of a more historical game. Btw, I managed unwittingly raising the almost historial HRE in the early middle ages (except for Königsberg=Riga):

Spoiler :

I had a closer look on the core area thing. First, I don't want to mess around, I just want to make some suggestions to maybe improve the Mod.
Well, the core areas for the HRE/Germany on the borders are those:

Spoiler :

I numberred it serially from top left to bottem right. And I think, there are some mistakes in there;
1+5: these are Danish regions, and they ever were, just as
2+3+6 Swedish areas are and always were.
13+17+18 are marked as foreign areas. But on 17+18 are very important German cities located, such as Köln, Aachen or the Ruhr-Area. Also
22+24+27: there were cities like Trier, Worms, Speyer, Basel, St.Gallen. Those were/are very important cities for the HRE/Germany! The Rhine-area was in the middle-ages something like the cultural middle of the HRE...
29+31+32 were also very important parts of the HRE (29: Verona, 31: Triest, 32: Laibach), especially Triest was the most important harbour for the Habsburgs.
But if you take a look East, to
11+12+15+16+20+21: this region is marked as core area, but in fact,
15+16+20+21 were never part of the HRE or Germany, these areas are core-Poland, so they should be contested between the Germans and the Russians, as Poland is actually splitted into these Civs.
26+28 also were never really (important) parts of the HRE/Germany.

I tried to make a map in the way I would change this:

Spoiler :

But just to make it clear (again): I really don't want to grizzle, I just want to offer some help, to make some suggestions.

P.S.: I know that changing the Rhine-areas would complicate playing with the Netherlands, but in my opinion, they just became an important nation, because they could handle their territorial disadvantages and raised a trading empire. They were never a military power in their history.

P.P.S.: Yep, I was quite a bit bored...

 

[AOS9001]

I'd be all for the changes in the west, north, and south, but eliminating some historical/contested areas in the east would lead to a slightly less aggressive Germany towards Russia. That land has been fought over many times, I think there should be incentive to fight for it in the game.

 

[The Turk]

The Byzantines are not balanced at all yet, so all complaints you have should they be overpowered will be (and would have been) addressed before the version would be released. This applies to both the player challenge and Byzantium as an AI opponent.

ok ok, my apologies then. But I'm just giving you feedback as of now, so you know how MUCH to "nerf" them, or support them, and in my case, I'm trying to give you both sides of the spectrum.

Camel archers already have a +25% against cavalry.

Really? Then why do they stand no chance against Cataphrats then??

I'd rather have the Arabian be able to defeat the Byzantines on their own. Again, should they be too strong, they will get nerfed in the future.

Me too, I want the Arabs to be able to defeat them as well, that doesn't mean though, that we can give them a bit more aid, while still keeping the Byzantines in one piece. And I'm a bit confused, whose going to get nerfed, the Byzantines? I don't know if they should get "nerfed", but they could lose one or two cataphrats at their beginning, I think that would be best IMO.

Bari would be nigh useless if Dyrrachium is present, which is already part of Byzantium's core and flips if it's present.

True, true, I just looked at the map, and your right, Bari is too close to Dyrrachium. So that doesn't mean we can't have two cities. Just place Dyrrachium anyway in 600AD start, and give them Palermo in Sicily. What will be nice, is that Palermo will be contested by the French (I hope its in their contested zone), Spanish, Italians and Arabs.

Doing this is rather easy, and I've already thought about implementing this in the future (which I've already told you iirc).

oh excellent! And no, I don't recall you saying that, but w/e. Thats great. After you've finished adding the Persia/India respawn, I would suggest respawning Carthage, you could have a bit of fun with them

In general, please don't always assume that something that's missing from the modmod (especially when talking about unofficial versions from the SVN), is so because ...

a.) I can't do it
b.) didn't want to do it
c.) doing it out of malice

... because it's much more likely it's because ...

d.) I didn't have the time to do it
e.) I want to it later when other aspects are finished

Ok, I wasn't trying to be hurtful, and as you said, this is just an "unofficial" release, so following that principal, I'm sorry if I sound "harsh", but I just really would like to see an improvment of this mod. Telling you how great this mod is, is not going to push ahead its development. And anyway, if I hated this mod, I wouldn't spend so much time playing it, to begin with!
So relax ok; I give the feedback, and its your job to accept some and decline some, I'm not expecting ALL my suggestions to be implemented, (although that would be nice), you as mod modder know whats best for this mod, better than I do.

On the colors: I can't bring myself to take "their" color away from the Spanish, although your right that they look quite similar to Germany now. I'd appreciate a screenshot of a light orange Spain, though

As for colours, I'm inclined to agree with Fabe; but in truth, they have never really worried me at all. So I'm fine with really whatever. (but the new Spanish colour does look good).

P.S.: I know that changing the Rhine-areas would complicate playing with the Netherlands, but in my opinion, they just became an important nation, because they could handle their territorial disadvantages and raised a trading empire. They were never a military power in their history.

Cannot agree more! Fabe really nailed it in the heart! Good Job
I hope this will get you (Leoreth), to move the HRE capital to Aachen. The Ruhr valley, in a historical context and in a practical kick-ass fun game context, should be highly contested by these three powers (Dutch, German, French). If you could just move the capital to Aachen, I think we would have some pretty interesting games. And then, when Bismark arrives, (again, I don't know 100% if you can do this), but you can have him build Berlin and change the capital there. That would be really awesome!

On an another note, IIRC, a while ago you were talking about adding Al-Andalusian city states in Southern Spain right? If its any constellation, I would recommend adding them, but once you conquer them, you get a bit of a scientific boost, or something like that, so that they are not too hindered by it. You would give Spain (and perhaps even Portugal), a bit of a larger army, and their first task, would be to reunite the peninsula. And once they capture Madrid (al-Magrit, I believe), they would move their capital there, from Santiago in the North. Anyway, that just my two cents

 

[Sandmonster1989]

The Turk said, "Really? Then why do they stand no chance against Cataphrats then??"
WITH the bonus and no upgrades to either unit, a camel archer does about 12.5 to the Cataphracts 12. It depends if their unit gets that extra 10% upgrade from their xp whether or not your Camel Archer will do the trick or not. What does NOT stand a chance is when I found and defend Baghdad with 2 Longbowman and the Cataphracts destroy them like they are nothing~ this happens often (I was actually playing as the Arabs last night, and in my game, the Byzantines were very aggressive... which reminds me...).

I was playing my Arab game and a Turkey game. In the Arab game, I was busy trying to expand West, so I used my initial settler to found Mecca, and sent my other two to found Wahran (Mellila) and Casablanca (which I believe that the Portuguese deserve historical area, but I digress). In my endeavors in the west, (also founding a city in Sicily), and focusing my attentions toward the west, out of nowhere, the Germans came with an army to conquer India. Later in that game, the Russians conquered half of Turkey.... then in my Turkey game, the Russians mounted an army to assault and conquer parts of Persia, and the Germans/Vikings had invading parties in India (if it weren't for my war with the Germans, they would've had India like it was nothing).

In addition, this morning I played a game as the Americans. When I started, the city of Heracleia (one tile above the Stone and Marble in Iraq) was Russian, as well as Konya and Trabzon. The French had managed to conquer Valencia, and the Portuguese the rest of Iberia. Rome was also French, but Venice and the other cities in Italy were Italian. Most of the "New World" was also colonized by the English.

Many European countries controlled WAY too many cities and very powerful armies that they don't NORMALLY use, so I'm wondering if you upped their aggressiveness (if you did, I like it and don't want to see this change it makes for an interesting world, but it would be nice to see the same changes made to the Arabs and the Turks). I only play normal speed and Monarch difficulty.

Anyways, after all that, I would also like to say that I DO NOT like the new option for Spain. The color looks like Peach/tan to me, not orange. I would rather see the HRE get a new color (other than the peach/tan), than the Spanish. Also reguarding the Spanish, maybe a city or two (like al Magrit and Balinsiyyah) would be nice, and move the Spanish capital to Leon... I suggest this ALSO because I am able to take my starting army and destroy Marseilles before the French spawn (which is fun to do, give it a try). <maybe I've played DoC too much, if I'm able to do strange things like that, lol>

 

[The Turk]

The Turk said, "Really? Then why do they stand no chance against Cataphrats then??"
WITH the bonus and no upgrades to either unit, a camel archer does about 12.5 to the Cataphracts 12. It depends if their unit gets that extra 10% upgrade from their xp whether or not your Camel Archer will do the trick or not. What does NOT stand a chance is when I found and defend Baghdad with 2 Longbowman and the Cataphracts destroy them like they are nothing~ this happens often (I was actually playing as the Arabs last night, and in my game, the Byzantines were very aggressive... which reminds me...).

THANK YOU! I'm happy someone agrees with me! And yes, thanks for reminding me, thats something I forgot to mention. Byzantine Cataphrats NEED to be toned down a notch, they just snap Arabian Longbowmen like toothpicks, its really not fair.

 

[AOS9001]

That's odd, I've never had problems with longbowmen against Cataphracts. Maybe Arabia should get a pikeman or two on spawn...

 

[The Turk]

Is it just me, or is everyone having problems loading up a German game for 600 AD start, on normal speed? Whenever I start up the game, it crashes