Dawn of Civilization General Discussion

[Leoreth]

Alright, I would like to discuss/change two UHV goals:

The third Incan goal is very hard stability wise, but the challenge isn't very fun, and in general the goal is rather boring. Does anyone have an idea for a replacement that isn't just "allow no colonies" we already have very often?

Also, the third American goal isn't all that challenging and I feel that there should be a replacement that is more encompassing of American commercial and military dominance in the 20th century.

 

[Orbii]

Also, the third American goal isn't all that challenging and I feel that there should be a replacement that is more encompassing of American commercial and military dominance in the 20th century.

I can't speak to the Incan part, but the American UHV can certainly be made more difficult, particularly if the 1700 AD tech problems are resolved. Currently, a reasonably aggressive player on the 1700 AD start can clear the Monarch/Normal UHV easily, while building wonders to spare. In my last run, to try out the new wonders + lategame features, I was able to build basically every historically American wonder - the four that you are required to build are not that difficult all-in-all (it helps a lot that most are on the bottom half of the tech tree, which the AI does not prioritize). For the 2nd UHV, perhaps changing it to require the four currently named (Empire State Building, Pentagon, United Nations, Statue of Liberty) plus any other six Industrial/Later wonders.

For the 3rd UHV, perhaps something like - "Pax Americana: Between you and your vassals and defensive pact partners, have at least 75% of global GDP and 50% of global military strength in 1990." Basically reflects the absolute dominance the First World (in the Cold War sense of the phrase) had at that time period. The numbers are pretty arbitrary, but looking at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_...orical_GDP#By_average_values_of_GDP_(nominal) they don't seem unreasonable historically at least for GDP. They would obviously need to be adjusted for gameplay. Also leaves open several options to getting there - building tall in America proper, or taking an early Manifest Destiny approach across the Western Hemisphere to either puppet or control directly South America for further land. Or, one could turn the Cold War hot and just demolish every possible competitor. Lastly, it also does not specify a particular civics setup, which addresses the hope addressed occasionally to not railroad the USA as heavily into certain civics.

I'm sure there's more creative options out there for the 3rd UHV, akin to the 3rd Russian UHV, but I think this is a reasonably simple approach.

 

[Lokki242]

America could have a "Vassalize a country on every continent except North America and Australia/x amount of continents" to represent their economic and political domination of various ststes to promote their interests.

Africa would mean ensuring a nation survived the Scramble or was brought back TO vassalize. South America probably means war, and Europe almost certainly does. Iran/Arabia/India/Korea make Asia fairly easy.

 

[Leoreth]

For the 3rd UHV, perhaps something like - "Pax Americana: Between you and your vassals and defensive pact partners, have at least 75% of global GDP and 50% of global military strength in 1990." Basically reflects the absolute dominance the First World (in the Cold War sense of the phrase) had at that time period. The numbers are pretty arbitrary, but looking at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_...orical_GDP#By_average_values_of_GDP_(nominal) they don't seem unreasonable historically at least for GDP. They would obviously need to be adjusted for gameplay. Also leaves open several options to getting there - building tall in America proper, or taking an early Manifest Destiny approach across the Western Hemisphere to either puppet or control directly South America for further land. Or, one could turn the Cold War hot and just demolish every possible competitor. Lastly, it also does not specify a particular civics setup, which addresses the hope addressed occasionally to not railroad the USA as heavily into certain civics.

That sounds good.

 

[Imperator Knoedel]

Re American 3rd UHV: How about "Secure more Oil resources than there are non-capitalist civilizations in the world"?

 

[JHLee]

I was thinking
'Have a larger military and a bigger commerce output than the next 4 civs in each category put together'
but percentage of global GDP/military sounds good too.

 

[ozqar]

I really like the pax americana goal idea, it's very fitting to history and allows for flexible gameplay

 

[JHLee]

'- moved fish near Lisbon 1W'

Now there is no merit in razing Lisbon/Cordoba and settling Seville anymore

'- the second Argentine UHV goal now requires legendary culture in Buenos Aires
- the third Argentine UHV goal now requires six golden ages'

Ooh, more challenge.

 

[JHLee]

I really like the pax americana goal idea, it's very fitting to history and allows for flexible gameplay

10 oils were pretty unique too, we could include that to the new 3rd goal to make the player actually make use of his overwheling military/industry.

 

[Tigranes]

changed spy experience rules: base experience now depends on the performed mission, modified by its success chance (this should yield at least one experience for all but the trivial missions)

Long overdue! Thanks for remembering about this!

But let me ask everyone: don't you think guys, that 6 Golden Ages for Argentina somehow trivializes the whole concept of the Golden Age? I mean China can historically claim 5-6 Golden ages over the period of 5000 years. But 200 year old Argentina? 6 golden ages are not what comes to mind when one thinks about that country, sorry...

 

[Leoreth]

I didn't have to remember, the issue ticket was in my tracking system all along. Overdue is the right word though, but as you can see I eventually come around to these things. Please keep an eye out for this change in particular, I have no idea how spy experience behaves with this in practice now.

And the third Argentine goal clearly is the ahistorical one. It's balanced for challenge.

 

[Crimean Lord]

I don't put people still in office into the game, so let's wait until he dies or steps down.

I think BORIS YELCIN is better as the most late Russian Leader!
And FREE MARKET or DEMOCRACY as favotite leader's civic
By the way "early" PUTIN and also MEDVEDEV had strong reputation of YELCIN's ideological accesors!

 

[Crimean Lord]

I can't speak to the Incan part, but the American UHV can certainly be made more difficult, particularly if the 1700 AD tech problems are resolved. Currently, a reasonably aggressive player on the 1700 AD start can clear the Monarch/Normal UHV easily, while building wonders to spare. In my last run, to try out the new wonders + lategame features, I was able to build basically every historically American wonder - the four that you are required to build are not that difficult all-in-all (it helps a lot that most are on the bottom half of the tech tree, which the AI does not prioritize). For the 2nd UHV, perhaps changing it to require the four currently named (Empire State Building, Pentagon, United Nations, Statue of Liberty) plus any other six Industrial/Later wonders.

For the 3rd UHV, perhaps something like - "Pax Americana: Between you and your vassals and defensive pact partners, have at least 75% of global GDP and 50% of global military strength in 1990." Basically reflects the absolute dominance the First World (in the Cold War sense of the phrase) had at that time period. The numbers are pretty arbitrary, but looking at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_...orical_GDP#By_average_values_of_GDP_(nominal) they don't seem unreasonable historically at least for GDP. They would obviously need to be adjusted for gameplay. Also leaves open several options to getting there - building tall in America proper, or taking an early Manifest Destiny approach across the Western Hemisphere to either puppet or control directly South America for further land. Or, one could turn the Cold War hot and just demolish every possible competitor. Lastly, it also does not specify a particular civics setup, which addresses the hope addressed occasionally to not railroad the USA as heavily into certain civics.

I'm sure there's more creative options out there for the 3rd UHV, akin to the 3rd Russian UHV, but I think this is a reasonably simple approach.

I really like new third UHV
And no "State Property" civic in any civilization in this period (which simulate pro-market movements even in RUSSIA and CHINA)

P.S. But on the other hand last UHV push to conserve/save power - but in the second part of ХХ century there was so many military U.S. campaings against Latin American/Middle East/Asia contries which should be represent in any form!

Perhaps there is sense to stimulate U.S. invasions?)

 

[Leoreth]

About the third HRE goal, I think it should either be X culture in the city or X great artists in the city or a combination of the two. What do you think would be feasible and challenging here? 25000 culture and five settled artists by 1700 AD?

 

[Steb]

You don't like requiring them to survive the Prussian spawn and the generally difficult European environment of the 18th and 19th centuries? Last time I played Austria in that time period I found it quite challenging and fun.

 

[Leoreth]

I don't know, at least after the 18th century the heyday of the Austrian Empire was definitely over. So many European civs stretch all the way into the 20th century already.

 

[ozqar]

They were still a significant player in WWI - and perhaps would've remained one if they hadn't lost the war (however big that if could be). Their third, aspirational UHV could be contemporaneous to WWI or related to it.

 

[Imperator Knoedel]

Their third, aspirational UHV could be contemporaneous to WWI or related to it.

"Have better relations with the four most powerful civilizations than Prussia in 1945 AD."

 

[Leoreth]

Doesn't anyone want to answer my actual question?

 

[JHLee]

Paris already has the 25000 culture thing, i think hre should go for aomethibg different.