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Dawn of Civilization General Discussion

Discussion in 'Rhye's and Fall - Dawn of Civilization' started by Leoreth, Nov 19, 2015.

  1. Chilloutman

    Chilloutman Chieftain

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    The Byzantine UP says Double gold values in trades (SVN version). I couldnt find the source for its code and it doesnt work with Trade routes, sold ressources or techs or Great Merchant Trade Missions. What does it actually do?
     
  2. Leoreth

    Leoreth 心の怪盗団 Moderator

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    It means that the AI values your gold in any deals at twice the ordinary value.
     
  3. Panopticon

    Panopticon Utilitarian

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    By the time my Caravél got from Córdoba to México, Aztecs were already destroyed in 1270. That seems really fast, but I also noticed very strong native troops in Korean Tenochtitlán in the previous game, so maybe they are a little too strong, or the sample of two is too small.
     
  4. Panopticon

    Panopticon Utilitarian

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    Hmm, it seems at some point you meet powerful Islamic civs who hate you for religious reasons, so you get like -8 bad relations instability, plus some economic penalty from losing commerce (despite rapid growth) so you get -12. I must be getting old but I don't have time to work out why these are, anyway I've forgotten how to play!
     
  5. Zaddy

    Zaddy Warlord

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    Can we talk about Egypt for a bit?

    Spoiler :
    upload_2020-4-23_23-22-33.png


    AI Egypt does this every single game, spamming a bunch of crap cities that the player has the raze. By my count, there are at least 4 totally worthless cities that any sane player would raze to the ground. I know you probably REALLY aren't a fan of this method Leoreth, but I would seriously consider giving Egypt the China treatment and just forcing it to settle only a few select slots. The Settler AI in Civ4 was never that great and for some reason this section of the map makes it have a complete meltdown.

    DOC has very punishing maintenance costs from number of cities, meaning for all but the very late-spawning civs with great modifiers, each new city is usually a fairly pricey proposition and must pay itself back AND pay for the maintenance cost increases in other cities to be worth considering. This encourages players to raze poorly settled cities. This would all be perfectly okay, but the settler AI is hilariously incompetent. While it might be cute to settle a city in the Sahara Desert which only has an oasis and some desert hills as workable tiles, in the end this just isn't valuable in any way. I would really like to see the raze penalty tuned down, or the settler AI improved (which I'm sure is MUCH easier said than done). I know you have other priorities right now, but if you could consider some change in the future that would be greatly appreciated.

    Thanks
     
  6. Force44

    Force44 Prince

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    Imho Egypt does not have a lot of extraordinary crappy cities given the terrain available.



    Alexandreia, Pi-Ramesses and Niwt Rst are three core cities of about size ten (that seems like a rather good setup to me)

    Abw gives acces to Ivory and makes Niwt Rst a worse city when conquered by an opponent (bad for non-egypt players, but actually good for egypt AI)

    Mut helps 4 spots 'grow their cottages' of which two are in the Egyptian core. Like Abw Mut deters conquest of Niwt Rst but also adds protection to the improvents in the core against invaders from the Sahara to its left.

    Selima gives acces to a second source of cotton. It supports cottage growth and adds protection to invasions from the west and and the south.

    The city to the left of Alexandreia (Automala?) helps against protection from barbarians from the west but (imo) more importantly helps in getting the 'spartan' fish back into egyptian culture.

    That leaves Akhetaten without a clear purpose (well, as a player I value acces to the red sea for its ability to send boats to initiate contact for the import/export of resources) But that city usually gets disbanded upon collapse of Egypt.



    Having said that, it sucks the AI does not try to optimize your playing pleasure by providing you with cities optimal to your personal preference. It is one of the reasons I choose to play marathon games with an early civ and then later switch to the civ that suffers AI forplay.

    Also what citysetup would you recommend when playing Greece?
    And what citysetup would you recommend whem playing Rome?
    What citysetup would you recommend when playing Byzantium?
    What citysetup would you recommend for Arabia?
    What citysetup for the Ottomans?
    And what citysetup for Egypt itself?

    Are there any other civs you play when the egyptian lands play a prominent part? (Persia and Ethiopia (and for me personally, Babylon) come to mind)
     
    Last edited: May 12, 2020
  7. Zaddy

    Zaddy Warlord

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    Don't disagree here, these are perfectly valid cities.

    Abw is also a perfectly adequate city. Not perfectly placed, but it's not what I'm complaining about. Also, the fact that you're acknowledging that the city placement is poor enough that it *actually acts as a more effective deterrent to the player* than say, their army, is what I'm griping about!

    Here's where I stop understanding. Having "helper cities" growing cottages makes sense in vanilla Civ4, which has relatively low maintenance from city costs (I play vanilla Civ4 on an about Immortal level, so I feel qualified to identify the differences). In DOC, this just doesn't work for several reasons.

    1) As I've said, expansion is MUCH more expensive in DOC, and often your expansion is as often limited by economic contraints as stability. You can't afford helper cities here, each city needs to contribute on an individual basis.
    2) One of the major ways to sustain research in vanilla is by building wealth. In vanilla, the money you get from wealth is affected by hammer modifiers, like factories and forges. In DOC, wealth always derives from the base hammer output. In most cases this means building wealth and research is essentially worthless.
    3) In ideal conditions in vanilla, once those cities are done building cottages, they can grow on food resources and whip units to facilitate conquest with a tech leverage. For a variety of reasons, that's not how DOC works. (Whipping is worse, punished for whip anger with poor stability, etc)

    None of the cities in contention have any food resources beyond the two or three flood plains they're helping grow. They NEED to continue working those flood plains to have any food resource at all. They aren't helping, they're just working tiles that could already be worked by a more productive city which they will never give back (because the tiles they're helping grow are their only source of food)

    Saying that these cities help protect against barbarians is not correct either, really. In vanilla, city borders and units could help fogbust barbarians. This is not the case in DOC; barbarians will spawn next to your units or often in your borders, rendering the need for barbarian defense (beyond obviously garrisoning your cities with protection) nil.

    This is rather missing the point. I'm not upset that the AI isn't calculating the perfect matrix of cities. I'm upset because the AI is settling a bunch of garbage that, in the context of the gameplay DOC encourages you to take, simply doesn't make sense. I'm not powergaming here. I just want the AI to settle something remotely intelligent.

    Again, this isn't about dotmapping something optimal. I just want something that could honestly be justified. I feel everything besides Pi-Ramssees, Alexandria, Niwt-Rst and Abw are simply unjustifiable in the context of DOC. Are Pi-Ramssees, Alexandria, Niwt-Rst and Abw optimally placed? No. But I don't care about that.
     
  8. Force44

    Force44 Prince

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    Fair enough, what seems enough justification for me might be insufficient for you.

    Reading your comments I figure you'd want to adjust the settlermap for the AI so that it only builds cities on spots a couple of tiles away from an inhospitable border so the vast majority of the cities remain viable throughout the entire game.

    Barb AI thinks only one turn ahead so a city in between approaching barbs and improvements offers a certain form of protection (AI not only faces a human opponent but also the same AI controlling a different civilization).
    If you can spare the stability you can even let barbs capture and eventually raze the superfluous cities for you.

    Personally I see the AI cityplacement as an additional challenge. Will I conquer and raze keeping my stability up with the additional economic stability? (<- long term gains) Or will I take the bare minimum and treat it as a costly purchase necessary to achieve my goals (usually UHV) (<- short term gain).

    Just to clarify I'm not trying to critisize you. I'm trying to find out what buggs you so much about something that appears beneficial for your AI-opponent (but obviously suboptimal for you).
    (right now I figure it is the quality of defence by AI mobile units in conjunction with te evaluation (of defensive quality) of certain spots by the AI for cityplacement)

    My question still stands. When conquering Egypt, what spots for cities would bring you joy?
    That might be in the form of a valuable prize, but also in the form of a tough challenge to overcome. (or even better, a product of those two…)
     
  9. ozqar

    ozqar King

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    I think the point basically is that, if you're a nearby civ and would like to conquer and add Egypt to your empire, you either:
    - Keep all the crappy cities and have high maintenance costs and can't really get productive cities there, or
    - Raze the crappy cities and get bad stability impacts

    Either way: conquering Egypt, which normally is something that would desirable and historical, isn't a good strategy anymore.
     
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  10. 1SDAN

    1SDAN Brother Lady

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    Also, it disincentivizes partial conquests of Egypt. If you conquer the entire region, you may have a few extra cities, but you can make rather good use of the area in general. If you only conquer a few cities, you'll be stuck with many good tiles still owned by Egypt. This can be seen especially well with the Gold and Incense, though it also applies to the Cotton and Ivory and the Wheat and Cotton.
     
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  11. Force44

    Force44 Prince

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    I like that argument.
    In my own words: "Right now conquering Egypt is so hard it discourages historical accurate gameplay."

    Another way to approach this problem would be to bring down the cost that comes with the conquest of Egypt. Perhaps with an algorithm that accounts (more?) for historical expansion when calculating maintenance costs.
     
  12. ozqar

    ozqar King

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    But it's ok that conquering a region is hard, what's funny here is that there are two game mechanics (the AI settler management leading to many crappy cities and the recently introduced penalty for razing cities) interact in such a way, I imagine also unintended, that it leads to ahistorical behavior. The solution I don't think is to make a special case for Egypt, because I'm sure this pattern must happen elsewhere, but rather address the mechanics in question. In this case I'd guess it would be best to discourage the AI from building so many cities in a territory that small, because it should be ok to have to deal with some suboptimal cities (otherwise every game would look exactly the same, with the same optimal cities built by the AI). Perhaps something like telling it to not go under a certain amount of workable (ie, not desert) tiles per city?
     
    mysterious_stalker likes this.
  13. Theophilos

    Theophilos Warlord

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    While on this topic, does anyone find portugal and moors loooooveeeee settling in this wasteland right on this tile?? :)

    Spoiler :






    Yes I see the cool wikipedia page for arguin but ... still LOL its very sad city
     
    Last edited: Apr 29, 2020
  14. Theophilos

    Theophilos Warlord

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    Do forts capture resources when occupied by a military unit, yet not in a border? I thought maybe in some civ game this was a thing, but IDK.

    there is a resource 1 tile away from my 3 times expanded border and just trying to think if there is a way to capture it without a city
     
  15. Leoreth

    Leoreth 心の怪盗団 Moderator

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    No.
     
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  16. caketastydelish

    caketastydelish Deity

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    I was going back to the first page (don’t know if the discussion still relevant), but someone asked if Polynesia could also be an ai instead of player only. Your response was basically “but historically Polynesia just kept to themselves so adding them would be pointless.”

    The possibility that more powerful civs could capitulate them (or outright wipe them out), sounds like a legit reason to me.

    Unrelated I was playing a game as Rome and my civ collapsed for no apparent reason. I did not contradict the decisions that Rome made historically, such as invading land that they did.

    I also didn’t lose cities to other players or barbarians. Why did I collapse?
     
  17. Zaddy

    Zaddy Warlord

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    I believe if you open Worldbuilder, you can enable Polynesia as a civ that will spawn in the game.

    As for the stability, if you check the game's Financial Advisor, it will display the stability score of your civ as well as what's influencing it. Hovering over the subgroups will give you a breakdown of what is helping and hurting your stability.
     
  18. Theophilos

    Theophilos Warlord

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    Yeah, like they said, go to financial advisor and see if there is anything bringing your stability down big.

    Maybe you razed a lot of cities? (this actually adds a lot of instability if you are not careful, and caused me to collapse a few times when I first started playing)

    Also make sure your civics are not a lot of "red" colors when combined.

    If you are over extended, you might have too few population in your core area, compared to the cities outside the core area. Building JAILS in cities outside the core area can help eleviate this, but if you are desperate you can tell your cities outside the core to stop growing or to starve themselves to become smaller. Try to get as much population in your core as you can if you want to expand far. (Im guessing you own egypt, which has very large cities, which can cause instability through its high population)
     
  19. Theophilos

    Theophilos Warlord

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    If one is on a river tile, should one never build a coal plant?

    I cannot tell if building a hydroplant stops the coal plant from making sickness still
     
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  20. Leoreth

    Leoreth 心の怪盗団 Moderator

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    As soon as clean power is available, clean power will be used.
     

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