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Dawn of Civilization General Discussion

Discussion in 'Rhye's and Fall - Dawn of Civilization' started by Leoreth, Nov 19, 2015.

  1. DC123456789

    DC123456789 Deity

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    Expansion stability is a function of your non-core population compared to your core population. If you don't have any core cities you'll get the worst possible expansion penalty and will probably collapse soon after, especially if you don't have any other categories to prop it up with.

    So settle in your core.
     
  2. Doodlefish

    Doodlefish Chieftain

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    Yes, I understand how stability is calculated, but I'm not familiar with the mechanic where you suddenly get a big stability hit and lose cities, accompanied with a message like "you are experiencing a territorial crisis!", usually when you finish researching a tech. Like I said, I was at 0 stability (right on the border between stable and shaky) before suddenly losing my city the next turn.
     
  3. Phorever Phalanx

    Phorever Phalanx Chieftain

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    As luck would have it, I was playing Rhyes for the first time in a year or so and found and installed this modmod.

    Question: is the declaring war mechanic changed? Greece declared war on me and immediately had 3 units each next to two of my cities, well within my ZOC. I had seen that barb spawn within the ZOC, which I guess is OK, but can AI civs really pop units like this?
     
  4. Publicola

    Publicola Prince

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    That's a preset 'Conquerors' event. AI Greece and Rome auto-declare war on (and receive free troops against) the Middle Eastern civs -- Egypt, Babylon, Persia and Phoenicia/Carthage. It's the same mechanism that gives free units + auto-war to the first Old World civ to discover the Aztecs, Maya and Inca. I'm pretty sure the Mongols also get free units against Russia and the Middle East as well, but I'm not sure if that's the same mechanic or something slightly different. Besides these pre-set events, the mechanic for declaring and waging war is basically unchanged.
     
  5. Publicola

    Publicola Prince

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    I actually had a similar experience and a similar question. I started a game as Polynesia, settled my capital on the island closest to Tahiti, and tried to settle a second city on the one-tile sugar island that's listed as a "Foreign" tile. I finished researching my first tech, and my stability remains at 0. When I finished my second tech, however, my 'Expansion' stability went down to -12 and I lost the second city in a "moderate territorial crisis."

    The problem was, by the metric given in the Civopedia, that shouldn't have happened for two reasons. First: per the Pedia, expansion stability can only decrease by 5 points per stability check, yet in this case it decreased by 12. Second: again per the Pedia, expansion stability is defined by the proportion of core population to periphery population. Yet in my Polynesia game, my capital (in the Core) and my second city (in 'foreign') both had 3 population. So the proportion was 1/1 or 3/3, not something that should have sent me into an instability tailspin.

    What gives?
     
  6. DC123456789

    DC123456789 Deity

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    Stability checks are only done after certain events, such as declaring war, settling a new city, or discovering a new technology. I think you're immune to crises for the first several turns after you spawn, which might explain why you only get these crises later, and IIRC you should always get a warning before the actual crisis hits. You can also hover over each stability category number to get a more detailed breakdown.
     
  7. Leoreth

    Leoreth 心の怪盗団 Moderator

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    Proportion is probably not the best word to use, since the core and periphery populations are modified by several weights. -12 still seems like a lot, I will look at the code.
     
  8. ezzlar

    ezzlar Emperor

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    Isnt Contested, foreign and foreign core count differently?
     
  9. FinalLegendZero

    FinalLegendZero Prince

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    "Contested" just means "Historical but in another civ's core". It is treated the same as Historical. Similarly, "Foreign Core" is treated as Foreign for the purpose of expansion stability.
     
  10. merijn_v1

    merijn_v1 Black Belt

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    I've been toying around with it and it seems I successfully merged it. The improved WB loads and the screen I open so far (not many, but I will test more in the near future) all work.
     
  11. Leoreth

    Leoreth 心の怪盗団 Moderator

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    That's correct. For the purposes of stability, everything not in your core is periphery and can cause expansion instability if not balanced by core population, even on historical territory. That's where the weights I mentioned come into play: one point of core population can support multiple population points on historical territory, but is about evenly weighted as population on foreign territory.

    As far as yellow and red tiles are concerned, there is little practical difference between them and their light green and orange counterparts now, besides letting you know that a respawn might happen there.

    They're mostly a legacy of Rhye's stability mechanics and I could imagine removing these categories. In exchange, we could have a more gradual system instead of the binary historical/foreign divide. I've been thinking about a category for temporary military subjugation between the two for a while, for example. That could help us to better model civs like the Mongols which historically controlled large territories but did not have any lasting impact on them.

    That's great! I had hoped that the integration would be rather seamless (HR is all Python after all), but not having to do it myself at all is even better :) Start a pull request whenever you feel ready.

    I could then start integrating stability editing options to make the above change happen.
     
  12. Chep

    Chep Emperor

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    I am still unhappy with the current stability calculations. Take this for example:

    Spoiler :


    Context: I have had (to use) a Golden Age in 1500, haven't whipped anywhere except the 1 city (last turn) since then, had almost all cities grow substantially since then and....still I am unstable because people don't like me, and since they dont like me I get random events making them like me even less.

    My domestic stability still suffers a whopping -4 from unhappiness even though basically all my cities are happy.

    And my economy is 0 even though I am using several nice cottages and have my cities grow.

    And in return I am classified as unstable.
    The situation was pretty much the same in 1500AD only then I had mongolia as my neighbour and I was forced to start a Golden Age so I dont lose half my empire because China gets reborn while I am considered "unstable".

    This is not only pretty annoying but seems really counterintuitive and I don't think that this situation is really intended.

    TL;DR:
    - foreign stability sucks because it's always negative
    - economic stability sucks because it's usually 0
    - domestic stability sucks when you run (or ran) slavery because that malus carries over far too long.
    - being "unstable" because your modifiers are "-1" sucks.
     

    Attached Files:

  13. civcivcivcivciv

    civcivcivcivciv Warlord

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    i d like to change attack submarine to submarine

    submarine can bring one special spy

    and attack submarine can bring missiles.


    so i tried to change CIV4UnitInfos

    <SpecialCargo>SPECIALUNIT_PEOPLE</SpecialCargo>
    <DomainCargo>DOMAIN_LAND</DomainCargo>
    <iCargo>1</iCargo>

    this is attack submarine part

    so i wanted to change this is for submarine

    so i changed this part to submarine

    and attack submarine is

    <SpecialCargo>SPECIALUNIT_missile</SpecialCargo>
    <DomainCargo>DOMAIN_air</DomainCargo>
    <iCargo>3</iCargo>


    but there s xml errors

    :(
     
  14. merijn_v1

    merijn_v1 Black Belt

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    What errors do you get?
     
  15. civcivcivcivciv

    civcivcivcivciv Warlord

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    i don't know it was xml errors

    cant load something

    all units ...

    from archers ...

    is there easy way to bring missiles to attack submarines ?

    and submarine they can bring only spies or specialists
     
  16. merijn_v1

    merijn_v1 Black Belt

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    I'm not sure if missiles are able to attack submarines.

    But it should be able to make subs carry missiles like missile cruisers. The strange thing is however that it seems you changed the correct part. Maybe you can try to revert the file and do the changes over.
     
  17. civcivcivcivciv

    civcivcivcivciv Warlord

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    thanks reply

    i thought it was correct part too but can't load this mod :(
     
  18. Publicola

    Publicola Prince

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    I agree with Chep: the changes to the stability are definitely immersion-breaking and frankly make the game much less fun to play. It's essentially impossible to remain 'stable' for any prolonged period of time, the threshold for 'unstable' is way too easy to hit, and the consequences for any sort of bad stability are severe.

    Seriously: a 'moderate territorial crisis' is to lose a city. Given the size of the world map relative to each civ, that's the equivalent of having an entire region secede or rebel -- and that's a "moderate" crisis.

    I understand the desire to make stability calculations less transparent so they can't be gamed as easily, and the desire to nerf the ability of supergamers like youtien to do things like conquer the world in 10 turns or whatever. But the stability changes have meant I have to dedicate a considerable bit of my attention solely to ensuring I don't ruin my stability. That reduces my enjoyment of the game and my likelihood to continue playing when at times it feels like banging my head on a wall.

    In general, if you intend to make the stability system very difficult, you should make it more transparent so people understand why they fell afoul and how they can fix it. If you intend to make the stability less transparent, you should reduce the difficulty so people aren't as likely to collapse on a whim without understanding why.

    Another thing I'd recommend would be to tailor the stability system at least to some degree to the difficulty level. It makes no sense for a player on Regent difficulty to be butting heads with the same stability issues as a player on Paragon -- people play the easier levels so they don't have to deal with that sort of thing. If easier levels allow players to not struggle for every increment of happiness or claw their way inch by inch to discover new tech, then those same levels should give a bit more leniency in expansion or economic stagnation before players face utter ruin.
     
  19. Tigranes

    Tigranes Armenian

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    A simple question: who holds circumnavigation bonus in 1700 scenario? As far as I know -- no civ starts with the 360 degree of map portion revealed to them. It's not Spanish for sure, and when I revealed the Manila Galleon path known to Spanish for centuries (but dark in this scenario) -- Spain got no bonus and no message about my maps proving the globe round. So what is going on?
     
  20. civcivcivcivciv

    civcivcivcivciv Warlord

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    i think england their research speed is quite fast

    they have all wonders effeltower, empire state building, and the rock band building ....

    after renaissance they have many colonies so it s more fast

    america and france germany is slower than them
     

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