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Dawn of Civilization General Discussion

Discussion in 'Rhye's and Fall - Dawn of Civilization' started by Leoreth, Nov 19, 2015.

  1. Leoreth

    Leoreth Vampire of the Blue Moon Moderator

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    I didn't see this post at first. Besides the fact that I don't like this particular solution at all, and the way it was implemented just further discouraged me from prioritising this issue, you just need to get used to the idea that problems need to be prioritised and the highest priority is not necessarily what you happen to care about this week.

    Sincerely, today's "moody" ( :rolleyes: ) Leoreth post.
     
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  2. 1SDAN

    1SDAN Brother Lady

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    I'm not too proud of my solution either, I wish I didn't have to script the settlement of the islands that lead to Easter Island and Hawaii, but at the same time even human Polynesians really don't have much of a choice as to whether or not to settle them. If anything, the AI is scripted just as much as humans are. There's not a lot of choices when it comes to playing as the Polynesians.
     
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  3. ozqar

    ozqar King

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    Why don't you try making AI waka's able to cross ocean tiles? Keep the settler values as they are (and discourage them from settling main landmasses, including Australia). I assume they should found cities normally? European civs do settle Caribbean islands and Portugal settles the Azores without problems.
     
  4. 1SDAN

    1SDAN Brother Lady

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    The problem with this is that the AI Polynesia wouldn't have the same gameplay as the human one, which I don't particularly like.
     
  5. Tigranes

    Tigranes Armenian

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    Do you want to play England and see Waka at your shores? They start 1000 BC, mind you. Not to mention Explore_Sea flag they were given...
     
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  6. Leoreth

    Leoreth Vampire of the Blue Moon Moderator

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    Oh, so I guess you can win the Polynesian UHV by pressing "end turn" a bunch of times?

    I couldn't disagree more.
     
  7. 1SDAN

    1SDAN Brother Lady

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    The AI can't win by pressing "end turn" a bunch of times either. They don't automatically get anything, I just lead them in the direction of where to settle. What do you think I did? Automatically give them cities? Everything that they get isn't given, it's earned. They start with the same amount of units as the Human does, and they can only produce what the human can. I haven't scripted anything but their AI and the fact that their cities start with Archers, which I'm planning to replace with changing their AI so they build a defense unit if they have none.

    By the way, you know that code that scripts the settlement of the islands that lead to Easter Island and Hawaii? That was yours.

    Code:
    if (eIndex == KOREA && getX_INLINE() == 108 && getY_INLINE() == 48)
        {
            return 82393;
    }
    Barring the Archer thing, the AI gameplay is exactly the same as the Human gameplay, which is exactly the same as DOC gameplay. Tell me again how in DOC "you can win the Polynesian UHV by pressing "end turn" a bunch of times"

    If any of my statements are inaccurate or incorrect, I will gladly modify the game as to ensure that my vision for the AI Polynesia is achieved.
     
    Last edited: Mar 9, 2018
  8. Tigranes

    Tigranes Armenian

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    While we at this, in which way does Korea ever benefit from any coding? They simply sit in their peninsula, sometimes expanding into China.
     
  9. Leoreth

    Leoreth Vampire of the Blue Moon Moderator

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    Because the whole point of the discussion is the relationship between desirability of an outcome and the amount of cruft that needs to be introduced into the game to achieve it, not what kind of code is used and who implemented it first, like who cares about that.

    I didn't enable AI Polynesia because I didn't think its existence added much to the game, especially with their bare bones behaviour. When it was suggested that a simple unit AI change could improve their performance I considered looking into it again, but still not immediately because it was never in scope for 1.15 and the fact that it did not add much value hadn't changed. This story validated my initial concerns, because yes there is a difference between using existing unit AI behaviours and scripting the AI in five different places. You cannot have the entire game devolve into that kind of scripting because it defeats the whole point of the game, and if it was permissible in important edge cases it certainly is not for Polynesia that has no impact on 99% of human games. Arguments that human play is "basically also already scripted" really make no sense in the first place. Humans have choice and can strategise, that is literally the opposite of scripted behaviour. Frankly saying something like that is an insult to any player and if you really thought that was true you wouldn't be playing the game.

    You don't have to justify anything you did and I did not ask you to. In fact, since this is the DoC discussion thread talking about that would be off topic anyway. I am here just now stating and explaining my decisions after having been pressured into discussing the topic for the nth time.
     
  10. 1SDAN

    1SDAN Brother Lady

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    Fair enough.
     
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  11. Imp. Knoedel

    Imp. Knoedel Simperator Knoedel

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    What, you just roll over and submit like that? I want to see drama, I want to see strive, I want to see blood!
     
  12. 1SDAN

    1SDAN Brother Lady

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    I got my point across:

    • Polynesian Gameplay is restrictive for the player, so I feel making a similarly restrictive AI for them is justified.
    • The changes I made were to account for the fact that the AI does not have knowledge of the map like humans do, thus meaning they have zero idea Hawaii or Easter Island exists, and thus they find the islands that lead there to be useless. My change makes them want to settle them the second they gain access, just like human players do.
    • Likewise, my change to make them desire settling the core is done because they have no idea what stability is. I rationalize it as a more extreme SettlerMap
    • The rest of the changes were done to make them able to handle the unique situation Polynesia is in (Lack of Production, needs to build sea explorers to find where to settle, Wakas are also work boats)
    Leoreth is right: Polynesia is a civ that requires special treatment in order to get working. Their AI needs to be changed in order to accommodate for their situation and sadly that situation means that they won't be as dynamic as other civs in the mod. They have little gameplay impact, which is why Leoreth does not want to include them. On the other hand their existence means a huge portion of the map that's normally empty has cities and activity, which is why I wanted to include them.

    Leoreth and I have two different opinions on what an AI should be. Leoreth would rather AIs behave differently from game to game, and introduce new challenges to the player. I would rather AIs behave similarly to how a player without a strategy would, and flesh out the lore of the map.

    I believed everything above was made apparent with my previous posts, and felt further debate to be unnecessary.

    I didn't roll over, I accepted that we had two different ideologies and would therefore not be able to reach a satisfactory agreement and relented, knowing that if anyone watching the discussion would change their minds, they probably already have.

    And yes, I just wrote an essay responding to a troll comment.
     
  13. Imp. Knoedel

    Imp. Knoedel Simperator Knoedel

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    Pfft, reason and tolerance are boring.
     
  14. Logoncal

    Logoncal Prince

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    It's 1SDAN, not Tigranes. If you want drama, ask the Armenian King instead
     
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  15. Leon Michiel

    Leon Michiel Chieftain

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    New suggestion: Greek artists UP's are named after forum members. Next to Sophocles and Euripedes, we can have our favourite forum residents creating great works of drama in the game too.
     
  16. Imp. Knoedel

    Imp. Knoedel Simperator Knoedel

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    Can we introduce the Great Works of Art/Writing/Music mechanic of Civ5 while we are at it? I want the Great Watermill Controversy of 2016 ingame!
     
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  17. Leoreth

    Leoreth Vampire of the Blue Moon Moderator

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    Watermill.png
    I will always have memorabilia of this event.

    It was a simpler time where this was still an innocent meme and not the battle standard of alt-right internet trolls.
     
  18. 1SDAN

    1SDAN Brother Lady

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    I still hate how people used to consider Pepe a hate symbol because it was used by the alt right yet no one complains that every member of the alt right uses hello as a greeting.

    Hypocrites.
     
  19. Leoreth

    Leoreth Vampire of the Blue Moon Moderator

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    I'm all for rehabilitating Pepe because both the comic and its creator deserve better, but that's not how political imagery works.
     
  20. 1SDAN

    1SDAN Brother Lady

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    Yes I know, Pepe is used way less than Hello, at least in "mainstream" culture.
     

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