Dawn of Civilization General Discussion

[Dracosolon]

To be fair, part of the issue is that a player-led China gets incredibly strong as the game progresses, most of the difficulty is frontloaded. Maintenance, unhappiness and barbarian spawns are your three main banes in the early game, but those eventually crumble against your huge, rich territory. By the time the Mongols show up you can swat them away without difficulty, and you also get to be very advanced. I'll have to replay the UHV to see how I'd fare against the Manchus, but given it's a few centuries later I expect the same pattern.

It's probably an inevitable aspect of the game without putting really artificial nerfs in place, but I suspect making the third UHV longer would only emphasize the problem. If anything, moving the deadline earlier would make more sense to me.

 

[Hickman888]

Right, the thing about increasing to 5 Golden Ages for China UHV3 is that by that stage of the game, your cities are already settled and established, your military is top notch, and you are a tech front-runner. Requiring an additional Golden Age would just amount to micromanaging more specialists, and clicking end turn some more. Of course, the Manchu are now another obstacle for China to clear, but as Dracosolon said, I suspect you'll be able to prepare and defeat them without too much difficulty, as the Mongols are a few centuries earlier, with proper preparation.

I'll make another pitch for this, but perhaps what we can do, is add a Chinese wonder that rewards some additional turns of Golden Age if the player has done something. For example:

• +2 turns of Golden Age for every vassal controlled
• +1 turn of Golden Age for every 2 Cathedrals controlled
• +1 turn of Golden Age for every 50 population in your empire
• +1 turn of Golden Age for every 5,000 in your empire

Just spitballing some ideas. Personally I'm partial to the vassal one. But the idea is to encourage the player to act in a certain historical manner, that takes off some of the workload of acquiring so many Golden Ages. But the goal should still be possible without constructing the wonder.

 

[Zalfos]

Oh, and the goal would be a "Experience X (currently 32) turns of Golden Age" instead, so you could mix-and-match how you get to the tally ?

The idea of such a wonder is interesting, but it seems more at home in a standard Civilization, as most of the other ways Dawn of Civilization treats Golden Ages is simply by headcount.
I guess if Golden Ages objectives were all counted on turns, it could have a wider scope (Burma, the Hindu religious UHV, and if it never expires, Argentina). But it might also be very difficult to balance as civilizations like the Mongols, Russia, Japan or the Manchus could get it and extract absurd value out of it, especially as Golden Ages allow you to ignore Stability for their duration.

 

[Hickman888]

But it might also be very difficult to balance as civilizations like the Mongols, Russia, Japan or the Manchus could get it and extract absurd value out of it, especially as Golden Ages allow you to ignore Stability for their duration.

Good point.

 

[Bickerstaff]

I like China, and for the reason given – it's fun to play the long game while dozens of other civilizations come and go around you. I've played several China games in different versions, since finding this mod in... wow, 2012. It's my way of getting oriented with whatever's changed before playing something unfamiliar. The first time, I remember you could poach most of the good classical wonders as China, which hasn't been viable for years now.

I think the first two UHV goals are excellent. They pull in different directions, requiring a good pace of expansion while maintaining a decent economy so you can lead on tech in the medieval era. But I've never cared for the third goal, and still wish it were something different. It just seems to me that it invites the player to phone it in as soon as they've fended off the Mongols – grinding out great people for golden ages is uninteresting. I feel like an ideal third goal would be one that asks more of the player in the 1000CE to ~1600CE period. For this reason, I always do the first two goals and ignore the third, inventing objectives of my own for later in the game.

Four golden ages can be done on monarch/epic before 1000CE, by the way, although it might require unconventional play. I haven't done it myself, but I have built more than nine academies/shrines/administrative centres by that date. First city is Chengdu, second Yunnan-fu, third Qingyang. Also, research mathematics before getting any tech that founds a religion and build the Parthenon for +50% great people birth rate. (This is the only classical wonder I'm sure is still worth the trouble for China. The Great Library is also very good, but the tech that unlocks it founds Buddhism. Even with marble and intensive chopping, the risk is high that Buddhism will spread and waste all hammers spent on it.)

For an alternate approach to the third UHV, I think it would ideally combine an objective that requires internal development with a foreign policy aspect representing China's regional hegemony (so the tributary system). I think the latter aspect is important because otherwise there's a long period where you've already finished consolidating all historical territory without much engagement with the rest of the world, other than fending off one or two northern invasions.

 

[Tigranes]

I feel like Chinese 3rd UHV must be akin USA's 3rd UHV with a Communist twist: share X % of World commerce and Y% of power together with vassals instead of allies by 2020.

 

[raskolnikov1269]

I feel like Chinese 3rd UHV must be akin USA's 3rd UHV with a Communist twist: share X % of World commerce and Y% of power together with vassals instead of allies by 2020.

I like to extend to 2020 UHV 3, but it doesn't fit with Chinese power nowadays. URSS had a network of communist allies/vassals and aimed for a counterpart of US multilateralism. China has not even an actual sphere of influence.

 

[hnrysml]

An economic influence-based goal would make the most sense for late game China. I don't really see the point of distinguishing between allies and vassals for ideological flavour, but I guess the key difference is that the US in post-WWII has typically made itself culturally, economically and martially indispensable to the nations with which it has close relations, but for China which has more recently projected *global* influence it would be more fair to say these relations have been typified by cultural and economic means. And seeing as in-game allies are represented by the Defensive Pact, I think the US goal makes sense, but either an allies or vassals one for China doesn't really in my opinion.

 

[Leoreth]

Given the feedback that it is tedious to push China into the 1800s without anything challenging to do I would rather not do a modern China goal.

 

[AOS9001]

I wish Civ IV's trade system was a little more in-depth, so you could have a goal like "Control x% of trade commerce with neighboring civilizations" to represent the economic/tributary relationships. You can't steal trade in this game like you can in Europa Universalis, sadly.

 

[Dracosolon]

I feel like something like Manchu UHV2 would fit, "have X% of the world’s population and in China" by a certain date, or maybe multiple dates, to still have multiple Golden Ages be desirable. This also limits .

With the Manchus now in the game, maybe something more specific to the preceding dynasties would also be appropriate.

A vassal goal would also be a possibility, though I think it would probably be trival considering how much smaller China's neighbors are.

 

[Lzz]

I haven't played China on the big map yet, but I quite liked the third UHV in 1.16. To me it meant that I had to use the great people I was given wisely which made the second UHV goal (getting the four techs) somewhat more difficult. I saved the great prophets for golden ages instead of building shrines (which would've nicely boosted my economy) and I remember using one our two scientists to bulb to get the required techs on time which made the third UHV goal harder.

Generally speaking, my favorite UHV's are those where each goal pulls you in a different direction yet they somehow all work together collectively. I find the Chinese goals do that well.

 

[SeekTruthFromFacts]

I really like the look of the Constantinople river-strait on an earlier page. And the Bosphorus was an obstacle to attacks. I don't doubt that there were good reasons; maybe it makes it too difficult to defeat enemy armies in Anatolia or something?

Anyway, I am mainly here to ask a fairly basic question: what counts as "Open Terrain" for the purpose of the Flanking Promotion, please? Does it mean "flat" or "not-a-city" or something else?

 

[Leoreth]

It must: 1) be flat 2) not have a feature that gives a defensive bonus 3) not have a city or fort.

 

[SeekTruthFromFacts]

Thank you.

 

[Dracosolon]

Is there a particular reason religious buildings can't be built with advanced start?

 

[Leoreth]

The advanced start logic does not check their requirements correctly.

 

[FIRST FIRE]

How about that to setting Galleon and Privateer also require [Optics] to train?And Moorish UU should be different ,which need [Optics] to enter Ocean instead.

 

[AOS9001]

I'm glad to see some of my suggestions for western Tibet, Mongolia, and Xinjiang made it! RIP Kyunglung but deleting a peak from the map was a long shot anyway.

Can't wait to try out Egypt 2 this afternoon!

 

[Tigranes]

I'm glad to see some of my suggestions for western Tibet, Mongolia, and Xinjiang made it! RIP Kyunglung but deleting a peak from the map was a long shot anyway.

Can't wait to try out Egypt 2 this afternoon!

Spoiler The Hindustan-Tibet Road is now possible! :