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Dawn Of The OverLords

Discussion in 'Civ4 - Modpacks' started by keldath, Aug 7, 2007.

  1. keldath

    keldath LivE LonG AnD PrOsPeR

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    huh,
    i didnt know that.
    cool.

    so feel free to change stuff as you see fit, like i said, im very open to things + changes.
    you can grab the latest form the git .
    what ever works for you my friend.
     
  2. keldath

    keldath LivE LonG AnD PrOsPeR

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    Update on ranged strike.

    Added 5 options to custom game screen:

    1. Ranged retaliation - (was return fire) - allows a siege to strike back when attacked.
    2. Ranged attack end movement - allows a unit to complete its remaining move points after it attacked.
    3. Allow units with ranged to commit either a ranged attack - or normal attack.

    ranged.jpeg


    more to come:
    game option that will change the range strikes to:
    - reduce city defenses while taking in damage / hit reduction depending on the defense rate of the city.
    - removing the classic bombardment mission

    maybe:
    game option for none random hit chance/damage


    also - changed siege units ai - removed attack, and city defense. (after looking at some game tests of ai)

    ***
    Master development on git updated.
     
  3. LeBashar

    LeBashar Warlord

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    Seems promising

    what is the git ?
     
  4. keldath

    keldath LivE LonG AnD PrOsPeR

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    Its a devepers tool to maintain project and keep history of any change commited.

    I store in the link i provided my development version, which i keep changing.

    So, last i updated it,, it has a bersion of ranged attack and many fixes.
     
  5. keldath

    keldath LivE LonG AnD PrOsPeR

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    i finally got the ranged attack to work properly.

    im gonna do some merges from advanced civ , some more tests and ill release the new version.
     
  6. keldath

    keldath LivE LonG AnD PrOsPeR

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    ok, im quite happy with my latest build,
    im gonna run some more auto play tests and if it goes well, ill update the master branch.
    after a few more tests ill set it as official version 1.04.
     
  7. keldath

    keldath LivE LonG AnD PrOsPeR

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    feels like sometimes im talking to my self here,
    but, people still dl the mod,
    147 on the 103 version, dont know how many if any dl the git dev ver.

    anyway, im working almost every day on the next version. collecting fixes from advc as he goes.
     
    PinkPallin likes this.
  8. rtt4a

    rtt4a Prince

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    we r here and waiting;)
     
  9. keldath

    keldath LivE LonG AnD PrOsPeR

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    cool,
    making some final tests.

    ill release the version as the development on git, after a few more checks ill make it as the 104 version.
     
  10. keldath

    keldath LivE LonG AnD PrOsPeR

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    hi All,

    ok i released 104 version i tested it somewhat.

    i urge you people, i beg you,
    write me feedback during and after your play.


    thank you all,
    link in main post.
     
    PinkPallin and f1rpo like this.
  11. LeBashar

    LeBashar Warlord

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    I m trying it. I don't see the "3. Allow units with ranged to commit either a ranged attack - or normal attack", do you remove it ? I haven't notice any difference for the ranged unit (except those who can bombard, obviously)

    I have few remark : bombardment work fine for me, but there is some need to tweak because of the weird comparision between all unit. For exemple, a catapult do ranged attack, at the same range than a battlecruiser, but a destroyer, or event a frigate, can't. Seem very illogical to me. It should be have a progression.
    Catapult to canons => range 1
    so has ships of this age : galleon, frigate, ironclad and ship of the line. I exclude caravels because in this game they are explorer only, and trireme/galley because there main purpose is to ram. But if there is special unit like quinquereme, they should have range 1 also as they embark catapults
    artillery to mobile artillery => range 2
    so has ship of this age : destroyer, missile cruiser, stealth destroyer, carrier. Battheships should have 3 range (half the guided missile and WW2 fighters seems ok to me). missile cruiser shouldn't have a better range because it is not his main artillery which is bigger than battleships, but the fact that is carry missiles. It should even have worse power, because it is a kind of missile carrier, unable of anything when it has launch all of it.

    Then there is the case of armors. Logically they should have a range of at least 1. But it could be a gameplay break, I don't know. Need a try. if we make it, it will probably be necessarily to make Anti-Tank infantery able to fireback at them (without this units become pointless)
    Another special case, submarines : should have a range of 1, but, need testing because as long as they don't fire torpedoes, they haven't a realistic gameplay. so maybe could it be better to not give a range, and let them fire to point blank, and adjusting units stats.
    Mobile sam : it is weird they can do bombardment against ground unit while they should embark only ground to air missile ? mobile artillery become useless if mobile sam could do the same plus also anti-air role.

    I wonder also if there is a real reason for ranged unit to not do collateral damage when they retaliate (I don't do enought testing of it to speak about). I think it could be a interesting way to change the stack of doom way to play : if ranged retaliation do collateral, then, it should be better for the attacker to split his army in many groups, especially to make artillery one different that those where there is shock troup for attack the city after the bombardment. Like this, te bombarment injure all defensers in the same tile, but the retaliation injure only those who do the bombardment.
    Even more realistic with moderns units, when artillery have a 2 range bombardment, and let the infantery be ahead of them, spreading the battle in a bigger area.

    enought for now about range attack

    About religions, I wonder what it is the purpose of adding many and forbid one for each civ. What does it add to the game ? In the vanilla's, religions are, a quite simplistic but effective, way to give civs another reason to like/dislike others. It worked for that. But it has side-effect that nearly in all game the world end with 50/50% peoples judaists or hinduists, because they are firsts religions to discover in tech tree.
    The problem with you adding more is while each civ has his religion, all the religion thing become inneffective to give a like/dislike reason. For me there is no interest to add more religion if it don't have a real advantage for the gameplay.

    same remark about march and swamp : what to they really add ? there is already many unusable terrain, so is the game be improved by adding more ?
     
  12. LeBashar

    LeBashar Warlord

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    I've made some few tests and I another thought about ranged attack. units become unable to fight to point blank if we give them a ranged attack, it is interesting for all ground siege units, but seem problematic for all naval units : even if the ship of the line could do ranged attack, it should already be able to charge and fight like no ranged naval units. If it don't, with addition to the combat limit, it become unable to sink any ennemy boat :/
    In the same line, maybe it is no more relevant that any ranged unit has a combat limit. Maybe it is logical for catapults and trebuchet, but no more for canons and any which come after that. The collateral damage should be caped, but a ranged strike against a defined tarjet should be able to destroy it entirely.

    I have notice that all units have a 0 air combat and 0 air combat limit, while you said they should all have the same as ground combat ? it seem work in the game, but somme popup indicate ranged combat = 0, and somes anothers gave the correct value (RC = x ) is it normal ? (for the same unit)
     
  13. keldath

    keldath LivE LonG AnD PrOsPeR

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    hey LeBashar,

    thanks for all the feedback first of all.

    during my development, i had encountered some issues and i had to disable this.
    but later on, it was made possible again . so next version, i can add it as an option as i originally intended.

    i tend to agree on that, i had tweaked religions over the years quite a lot, now whats left , is a bunch of religions...
    what do you think? should i remove the new ones? or any thought about making religion more meaning full perhaps?


    ok so now to ranged issue:

    i changed ranged values and switched it to work with regular combat values. this i found to be a best solution to a problem i had, where if air combat was used. the unit the code chose to be the enemy defender, was always the best.
    i tryed different solutions and bypass it. but i found that kmod mostly do not have the left from behind very good code, to choose enemy defenders , to address air combat values and air combat limits properly.
    so i just changed it to work with regular combat.
    (that also opens the values to promotions and such which at one point ill add to siege).

    ranges of units -
    i decided, since this is a first version with ranged, to give all units, values of 1 range.
    i like the farther range to more advanced units, but for start i wanted to start easy.
    so - ill gladly take in values you think should be for any units, if you wish, you can maybe write to me what ever you think is best and ill do so.

    ships and armors -
    i did not gave all ships ranged attack since i indeed think some ships needs to direct attack also.

    although , realistically speaking, armors and such, need to have range, but that will change the game play quite a bunch.
    in late game, air planes, ships, missiles, artillery,
    they all serve as ranged, i think it will be too much "range" game if regular units will get it also.

    originally, i thought to add a specific range land unit throughout the tech tree in addition to siege units.
    maybe thats better?

    retaliate -
    yes in the original code there wasnt a collateral damage, maybe adding it could be nice.

    interesting, maybe ranged ships should not have limit, maybe vs land units there should be and vs sea units, there shouldnt - whats do you think?


    all ranged attack have a random factor that can cause an attack to be missed.
    if can provide a save game, and maybe a screen shot , ill see if it works as intended , but i think thats due to the random .
    you can change the random factors in the altglobal xml file, right in the end,

    thanks friend!
     
  14. LeBashar

    LeBashar Warlord

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    For now, I realy don't know. In my mod, I have just move religions discovery in the tech tree to make some of them war oriented, link to military tech, and so let a chance to militaristic civ to found some avoiding cultural civ seize all religions. For me it was sufficiant to solve the vanilla's problem : there no more a judaist/hindusim monopoly, and some military civ could have their religion and act like to spread it. Also, it often improve the antagonism between warmongers and peackeeper because they often have different tech path, and so, different tech religion. I have made confusianism the earliest war related religion (with a tech I named "invasions" give horse archer) and christianism (with feudalism).
    But working on religion should be linked with working on tech tree, buildings, civics... it is a bee nest to modifying something in that without a solid roadmap.

    Soooo... we need a roadmap ;)

    I have modified all basics units (not the UU, they're too many) with ranges I have said, and 100% damage limit except for catapult/trebuchet, and air units. I will test with that. A priori, I think it is not necessarily to make different damage limit between ground and sea units. The ranged attack shot is already less powerfull than a normal attack because there is not a inevitable death of attacker or defender. So I think it does like a damage limit that we need many range shot to completely kill something.
    But, let sea unit able to do normal attack could be a good thing. Could be, not sure. I will make testing with only ranged and see what it come. I assume it will make naval battle less letal.

    I notice that. Could it be easily disable ? I don't know for now if it is a good thing to have this, while attacks are already very variable. The complete miss make testing more difficult for appreciate units balance.

    Yes, it's the problem. But I found very annoying a catapult able to shot at a tank without retaliation :/
    It's maybe a no problem, because tank should fight against units at least gunpowder based, even with technological avance/retard between nations. But again, it's weird to have a napoleonic artillery able to shot at a tank, and do some damage.

    An another "solution" could be to disable ranged strike for catapult and trebuchet, because they shot less far than a common modern rifle. But it's a shame.

    You're right but it is the whole point of all military improvement : be able to shot the ennemy without him able to shot you (or for want of anything better, to shot him the first). The modern warfare should be a war which spread really quickly all over, and no more something with a enormous stack of "la grande armée" which move slowly like a turtle and crush anything in the way.
    I my mod I have give the commado promotion to all mechanised units after the mobile war tech (WW2 step). It make the modern warfare insanely violent because you have nearly no chance to protect you. Ennemies armies can go far in your country at the first day of the war (and you also). the defense become nation based, with your best troops in the center of strategic area and no more in the outskirts, and a need of responsive rearguard troops.
     
  15. LeBashar

    LeBashar Warlord

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    The error about informations on ranged units it's : when you have the mouse on the unit icon in the list of selected unit, it is write ranged strike : 0, but if you have the mouse on the unit in the map, it is write RC : x with the correct value.

    I notice also siege unit seems don't gain experience when they do ranged strike.
     
  16. keldath

    keldath LivE LonG AnD PrOsPeR

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    cool,
    in my previous Doto incarnation, i had religion with unique religious units.
    moving the religions to another techs sounds good, if not to existing opnes than maybe to new ones. what would you think about founding religions through great people? there are two mod parts that does so.

    yes maybe so, i gave them ranged attack cause i thought, maybe its more realistic, to have true see bombardment.
    anyway, once you feel you have balanced the numbers, ill gladly merge it in Doto.

    yes - i think you need to change the random range values in the alglobal xml file as i wrote you above, ill copy paste it later when im at home so youll see it.

    haha thats a true anecdote, i must say. i havent thought about that.
    a balance should be made between units to allow a good game mechanism. sometimes realism gets in the way :)
    giving retaliate vs units is an interesting take, maybe some hard coding of era/tech/units.
    or, having tech reduce range, that also, quite nice in terms of realistic balance - maybe its easier to handle.
    im not sure how to code implement these, but i can definitely try. just need a set of rules for the desired behavior and go from there.

    interesting idea. you think i should add this also in Doto?


    well you got me :)
    the info about ranged , i did in the early development, while i used air strength.
    after i switched to regular strength, i was lazy a bit to change those back / set proper info.
    so proper info you should look at is the range and normal combat.
    ill fix it for next build of course.

    yes thats true.
    in the original VIP code, it was missing as well. i think its due to the issue of using air strength.
    ill add xp from ranged in next build => which means i have to set the promotions for siege units in a different way/add new ones.
    thats also for next build.


    while you play,
    VIP had the ranged units have all the unit combat AI for these units. i have limited the siege units to city attack and a bit of city defense.
    im not sure if the settings i chose is the preferred ones. id like the ai to keep ranged in the city, to attack stacks and of course cities.
    so take a look of ai usage of these units, see if something needs to be adjusted. maybe counter unit combat or something.

    cheers friend!
     
  17. LeBashar

    LeBashar Warlord

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    Another problems with religions and civics :
    - many lader choose "discrimination" for civic, event if they haven't a state religion ! seem absurd, and early stop missionary religion spreading which let them without religion :/
    - nearly all leader choose "total war" civic even if they are not at war, and choose it as soon as they discover it so... all country are with the "no foreign trade route" flag and then, all early wonders who act to give more trading route aren't good for nothing :/
    - even if the total war civic was not sufficiant to stop all world's trading routes, there is also a early civics which do the same "barter" and many leader choose it also.

    Early trading seem impossible

    Before making huge change in civics, it is necessarily, in my opinion, to know how the AI calculate the civic to choose

    Seem interesting at first glance, I think this could set at least two bad side effects :
    - it could be quite long to obtain the first great people, so it will delay the appearing of religions
    - it give a huge advantage for founding religion to philosophical and wonder building leader.

    It is quite easy to give big modifiers with xml for era/units. I have made it in my mod, and it's work fine. For exemple, I wanted ironclad nearly impossible to sink by any gunpowder ship, even themself, and worked exactly as intended. Not so succesful with machinegun, though.

    But make units able to retaliate with era linked conditions, if it is possible, make me think of something : each new era unit could be able to retaliate to attack of older's one. If catapult shot mousketeer, they retaliate. If renaissance canon shot modern infantry or tank they retaliate, and so on. This could simulate the fact that new weapon shot far longer, but if tank attack tank, the battle is normal, whitout ranged strike.

    oh no ! Not for now. It is a complete battle mechanics revolution. If other part of the mod are under construction, the whole thing become out of control with chain lightning of side effects.
     
  18. LeBashar

    LeBashar Warlord

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    Here was my tech tree. I have try to combine many objectives :
    1- more historicaly accuracy
    2- less huge gap, and in the meantime, some key-tech, like gunpowder or printing press (peackeeper or warmonger are forced to make the sames research at this stage, thus to avoiding some civ with tremendous advance in civil tech and still with very ancient soldiers)
    3- more logical dependency
    4- no tech without good reward

    So for religion, they should appear more or less at their real apparition date. Hinduism and judaism are the olders, peackeeper path. taoism and budism are second tiers peackeeper religions, but you can discovers them without search hindusim or judaism. Confusianim is for warmonger religion, you discover with "invasion" tech which is a pure war tech (horse archer, camel cataphract, chichen itza and terracota army). After that there is christianism, war path also with feudalism, could be found immediatly after confusianism. And then, islam which is the last one, balanced with war and peace because it need few cultural low cost tech, and only dependent to "invasion" tech.
    Religions and religion related building work as vanilla's one for all other aspects.

    For civics, I have just slight modifying existing ones, especially government ones : there is monarchy and republic which can be search in ancient time (it always bother me that in vanilla's republic is a late game gov : and Rome, what do we do ? play ancient rome with monarchy ? meh... ). So you can choose monarchy for war path, happy bonus with barracks, stable, wall, great general emergence without border. Or republic for less war path, happy bonus in biggest cities, cultural bonus for specialists, and big great general emergence inside country.

    Naval warfare give war boats, and special promotion "boarding party" which give attack bonus, and a good chance of capturing the boarded boat if win the battle.
    I have add many step in naval units :
    transport : galley -> caravel -> carrack -> galleon -> steam frigate -> transport
    fighting : galley/longboat (pirate) -> trireme/quiquereme (add bombardement abilty, heavy cost) -> galleon -> frigate/privateer (pirate) -> ship of the line -> steamfrigate/ironclad -> cruisers (dreadnought type)/destroyers/submarines and pirate submarines/battleship etc.

    Before galleon, trireme are powerfull but coast limited, while you can make high sea blockade with pirate longboat/caravel/carrack, but be in danger in coast. Galleon crush any previous navy but is quickly overpored by rapid evolution and new boats. All boat before galleon can explore ennemies territories, because I always found very weird ancient empire can seriously claim naval territories.
     

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  19. keldath

    keldath LivE LonG AnD PrOsPeR

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    oh my,
    i didnt know all that.
    ever since i came out with v1, i knew my civics, well, sucks. its my achenes heal. how about,maybe i will go back to the source -
    take the advanced civ, pretty good civic, and adjust them just a bit with my new features. maybe have one more civic category only.

    yup you probably right. just thought ill pitch it as an option.
    too much work to balance it out.

    yes thats nice, i need to experiment with the code.

    :) yes sir!


    sounds good.

    have you seen my mod before i merged it with advc?
    i had quite well made tech tree i developed over years. but i ditched it.
    perhaps you can take a look at it.

    yours seems very good ineed.i i like your aim.

    need to make a todo list i think, decide together what and when to do .
     
  20. LeBashar

    LeBashar Warlord

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    Some other remarks on Doto :
    - in a city siege, if there is defense % lasting, the ranged attack don't work (tile in grey).
    - ranged attack miss more than 50% of the time, it is far too much, and the retaliate seem always work lol. The ranged strike is not so powerfull so, as I assume, there is no need to add a possible miss.
    - bombardment and ranged attack always act as separate action, bormbardment don't cause collateral damage while ranged attack don't reduce city defense.
    - the combat limit must be at 100% with ranged attack, because without it the game is struck between artillery fire which last forever.
    - for now, galleon and privateer/frigate chases them without sinking each other, and it is the caravels, without ranged attack, which kill them when they are wounded. This argue for making boat able to do both ranged strike and point blank strike.
     

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