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Dear American Liberals: It's not my fault if your history is so straight and male.

Discussion in 'Off-Topic' started by metatron, Nov 10, 2018.

  1. Zack

    Zack 99% hot gas

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    Is this like Dear Abby?
     
  2. r16

    r16 not deity

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    agony aunts do not arrive in forsaken towns in forsaken countries , assuming this time they will not be refused again . Now that my pitiful existance drives me into guerilla posting of random gibberish let's keep the thread in the front page as Gori the Grey comes back .


    Spoiler :



    inkılap is Revolution


    inkilap is becoming like a dog

    don't bother to pronuounce them correctly . Most of us Turks can't ; personally had to check the dictionary to see which is which . And yes , this is a serious argument and whatever that the basic idea that Americans attach less value to women when compared to Europeans is wrong . See , 5 or 6 or maybe 7 years back the plan was solid and the going good and the PM would become the President in the American masterplan to destroy Kemal's Republic and people were still going to Anıtkabir , Atatürk's resting place , on some day important to the Republic ... PM ordered the Police to cordon the area , some street battle was just brewing , the Police of New Turkey against a reported 250 000 civilians . The then President , also an Islamist , intervened , the road blocks were removed . Because America still acts like a sissy , the true power of New Turkey is still not unleashed , the PM still has to go Anıtkabir in official functions ; in the most recent trip he wrote that his airport was a most true following of Atatürk's desire to make this country a part of the Modern World . Simply because America is acting like a sissy , the PM could not write inkılap to refer Atatürk's work , now that devrim - the modern equivalent- is part of the false language Kemal had created to deny New Turkey the leadership of the world through Caliphate , and he readily knew there were still people left to make the distinction between the words , he voiced his handwriting as enkilap .

    where's the American women in this ? All over , man , all over .

    because America still demands the Islamists to visit Anıtkabir on official days , the PM's long time political mentor gets a visit by the head of the religious Affairs . Google Fesli Kadir , if you are like dying to see the guy . Lately famous for wishing that the Greek Army should have won in the 1920s , because then Caliphate would still exist and New Turkey would rule the world , even if Greek flag would have been flying over Istanbul , Bursa and İzmir . On November 10ths , there will be sirens at 9.05 , the minute Kemal died in 1938 , the guy advises "Muslims" to visit the bathroom , paying "respects" in solid or liquid form . On Fridays there will be 'sermons' , prepared by the Religious Affairs , and not a word on Kemal on November 9th this year , because there will be howls of protests . Instead visiting the guy . You see , CHP seems to poll 23 or 25% (its max possible rate) once again . America has once again intervened . Some MP of the Main Opposition thus declares Ezan (the call for prayers that emanates 5 times a day from the minarets) should once again be in Turkish . So that A-K-P can warn the country about the godless Kemalists and secure its voter base , fraud is easier in that way . Because there's a economic thing going on , apparently some CHP supporter has also declared pork can be consumed . Now that increasing prices might hurt the image of New Turkey that walks on water , see , there is nothing confusing at all ...


    and because of the sophistication , so much improved in view of the 21st Century experience , the CHP MP does it on some TV debate where his opponent claims Allah-u Ekber means not God is Great , but there's but only one God . While ı have never hesitated to add embesil to any description of those smart people who debate in favour of New Turkey (and it's exactly as it sounds , the local pronounciation of imbecile) , can he really be this unaware ?


    no , really comin' to the subject . Because American women would be expected to abhor Burka , now that America justified invasion of Afghanistan with how Taliban was forcing Afghan women to wear it ; Turkish women can be an awesome (as in the like original meaning like fearsome) danger to the interests of Washington . Thus America has come up with something new . New Turkey will of course liberate all the women in the country , so that one day they will have the freedom to cover themselves in the name of Modesty and they will all willingly do so and none of them will appear in the streets or walk next to her absolutely required escort if she is in desperate need of being in the street . As America spotted the possibility of yours idiotly is still an idiot but might still be a good start , because the stuntwoman was dumb enough to be seen in town and had a pageant to come up with Miss State Department , there is a new epidemic in country . Women of Modesty , who are in the "çarşaf" , local variety of burka , all-over black , but generally no veil , appear at events about Atatürk and declare he is not a god , or insult his memory or whatever . One had her axe , took one like weak swipe at a statue of Kemal , hid it under the garment and walked away . Because New Turkey would like some fool to take action and call her names and the like , the courts actually reduced the fine on a guy who attacked a female on public transportation , because she was wearing shorts and that insulted his morality . Shows the women of New Turkey are brave and willing and no need to worry . Stuntwoman doesn't count , Klingon Spacemarine chicks could never compare to Miss State Department in looks , because scales . And minds , because them Americans have spent like 50 years in creating an "Islam" , which is even less than London's "Islams" . So that American women would not feel like feminist , because in Turkey supposed modern people attack poor women on the streets and they need some liberation OIF style . Which might mean a little colleteral damage of women who do not do the çarşaf , you know , accidentally . Because the Turk that constitutes the threat is so cold against the no doubt utterly humanitarian , absolutely open hearted American attempts to kill us Turks all . America has even decreed what used to be the former Education Ministry of the country to declare that us Turks grasped the notion of a nation so late . They are telling us the army does not come from Mete of the Huns , like 202 BC ...



    at a time when the leader of the almost racists insists the 100th year anniversary of the Armistice is a plot against his movement where the world leaders have come together to insult Nationalism , it's only natural to fear the American women . Who can upset the vote in two years time now , despite having shown their unassailable wisdom in choosing Trump . Who had campaigned on grabbing women and offering his daughter in some capacity around . Nobody needs mobilized women of Modesty on behalf of the European women . Who have seen the threat in person while on vacation in the sunny resorts down South . That denizens of this country are human like them , two arms , two legs , some hair . If it comes to the shove , there will be far more emigrants . Those Turkish sisters of European women , who can be useful , are given all opportunities to emigrate , it's true . But if the ballon goes up , the European women trust their Greek sisters to stop their really commendable attitude giving tea to emigrants that have just washed out of the Aegean , being their Syrian sisters . And push their Turkish sisters back to the sea ...
     
    Last edited: Nov 14, 2018
    yung.carl.jung likes this.
  3. Angst

    Angst Rambling and inconsistent

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    I have no idea what this is about but this crap here

    Danish people from Copenhagen literally don't understand Western Jutes because the accent is so dense. My ex from Eastern Jutland didn't understand her grandfather's Western Jute at all. Trying to appear smug with that nonsense just makes you look dumb.
     
    yung.carl.jung and SS-18 ICBM like this.
  4. warpus

    warpus In pork I trust

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    I'm a Canadian liberal, which I assume is close enough for me to assume that I can respond to this thread.

    Your original post is a huge mess and it's not easy to see what you're really trying to stay. Stay on point! Be concise.

    As far as I can see you are saying that you are not a time traveller capable of going back in time and becoming a time-travelling feminist who successfully introduces gender equality to the the first 13 American colonies, as well as eradicating homophobia around the globe. Yeah okay, I can see your point, even if you had a time machine that would probably be impossible to do.. but why are you telling me this?
     
  5. HoloDoc

    HoloDoc Emperor

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    Because he has a time machine, and he knows he'll get blamed do not using it if he doesn't pre-emptively excuse himself.
     
  6. Gori the Grey

    Gori the Grey The Poster

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    I'm still backed up to where I can't give this the attention I would like to give it, so let me do this.

    I'll give you all my initial understanding of what's going on in metatron's post, and then crowd-source back out to you all the work of deciphering it.

    Let me stress that all of what I'm about to say is tentative, but I'm going to be speaking emphatically because I don't have time to write with all of the qualifications.

    Look mostly at the final spoiler, that's the "rant" proper. All the rest is set-up.

    That section is ten puzzles, where something is described obliquely and you're supposed to make out what it is.

    For now just take the first one. I think it describes some actual female European monarch, and you're supposed to be able to make out who by unscrambling all the given details.

    One of you who is better at European history than me see if it is susceptible to deciphering on those grounds. If I'm right about how it is supposed to work, the answer might in fact be easy to someone who has a solid knowledge of European history, some straightforwardly identifiable figure.

    When I get a chance I'll come back with a few more strategies that I think might bear on deciphering metatron's post.

    Sorry I can't do more of this initial spade work myself.

    If someone can solve that first puzzle, along the lines I've set out, it will be a big help to me. I was going to sit with wiki and google and see if I would work it out, but again I'm pressed for time.
     
  7. Hygro

    Hygro soundcloud.com/hygro/

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    That’s as far as I got which when combined with the title means “hey American liberals complaining about the masculinized version of history you get, that’s your local problem so stop claiming it’s universal”. The rest was incomprehensible and full of allusions that metatron, who is assuming perfect play by his readers in a game (or vase) of knowledge we are assumed to be exactly aligned with.

    But we don’t know and our not knowing is actually his thesis so the disconnect between the frustration that we don’t know and expecting we could grasp his allusions is a stark contradiction.
     
  8. brennan

    brennan Argumentative Brit

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    #1 Is Catherine the Great. That's as far as I got.

    Edit: The King is Frederick the Great.
     
    Last edited: Nov 15, 2018
  9. Timsup2nothin

    Timsup2nothin Another drone in the hive mind

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    Yet another just doesn't get it.

    Is there any practical reason that I should care which end of Denmark a Dane comes from? Given that unless they speak English so they can tell me I'm not actually even going to know they are from Denmark, much less which part, it seems unlikely that these differences will be significant. I'm not saying that there aren't any, just that they seem far less significant than they are being made out to be, given that the conversation started off being about how for some reason I should be eager to be able to judge an Englishman's class by their accent, when frankly I don't care about their class in the first place.

    If I show up on the streets of Copenhagen tomorrow do you think I should expect to be treated differently if I say "I'm not just any old USian, I'm a Californian!" I would expect to be met with a hearty "so what?"
     
  10. Hygro

    Hygro soundcloud.com/hygro/

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    Having been to Copenhagen, yes, being Californian is regarded with specificity.
     
  11. Timsup2nothin

    Timsup2nothin Another drone in the hive mind

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    How about in East Jutland?

    Though perhaps Nebraska v Kansas would be a better illustration.
     
  12. Gori the Grey

    Gori the Grey The Poster

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    Ok. I wondered if it was going to be someone like that. The female leaders who appear in Civ games was where I was going to start, particularly with this first puzzle because of the "at 33 years old she could be considered the most powerful person ever to have walked the earth." Someone of whom that can be said, even with historians' hyperbole, also has to be someone who's going to show up as a Civ leader.

    Ok. great. I'll trust that brennan has this right, and go learn what I need to learn about Catherine in order to open up more of the puzzle. (By the way, my not simply being able to solve it on its own will be relevant in its own right down the road.)

    So now I'm going to give my hunch at where all the riddles are tending (and then I'll go have a look at which one I think might the next best one to crowd-source). My hunch is based on the kind of posts I've seen metatron make, the kinds of issues I've seen him drawn to comment on.

    It's a hunch. I'm putting it tentatively. I want permission to revise as I learn more about more of the puzzles.

    So, metatron seems to me impatient with American liberals' discourse about things like "white male privilege," especially in any more crude formulation that notion takes that suggests that men fundamentally have things easier than women. So he wants to insist that plenty of men have it bad, and worse than some women, so there's no necessary privilege inherent in being male. So here, Catherine, a woman, has things better off in her life than the imprisoned prince and the imprisoned prince's friend, men. (Again, I have to go learn who those are.) And his further point might even be that she had things better because she was a woman: that as a woman, she wasn't susceptible to the imprisonment that the prince suffered or the threats of death that his friend suffered.

    If I'm right about metatron's target, and his objection, and this case as an example of his objection, all of those can be answered. But I don't want to get ahead of myself. And don't you all get ahead of yourselves, because I don't want to make his criticism out to be just that. I want to solve more of the puzzles, and we'll see how keen and profound is his criticism of notions like white male privilege.

    All right. Let's next do #4. I think there's enough stuff available to start puzzling it out. metatron tells us what he'd ask if he walked down America's National Mall. looking at its monuments Then he gives us Lea Rosh, a German newswoman associated with a controversy concerning monuments. Wiki gives me this on her controversy:

    And that fits with a lot of the details he gives in #4.
     
    Last edited: Nov 15, 2018
  13. r16

    r16 not deity

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    so , the Millman lessons are indeed missed ?
     
  14. metatron

    metatron unperson

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    You guys are making this way too complicated.
    You are overestimating my meany-face seriousness.

    The setup is quite simple:
    1. I am annoyed with Anglospherians "knowing history" in a very lopsided way in general.
    I.e. it's either incredibly blinders-down Anglo-history or it's some pseudo-woke "world history" that gives ever so mildly condescending credit to all the cute "brown" peoples who could (this is usually about Mali or about Swahili traders or Majapahit; it's curiously never about the Taungu and Ayutthaya or about Ming China or about the Ottoman Empire at any point before 1811; and it sure as heck makes a strenuous effort to pretend continental Europe doesn't exist).
    2. I'm annoyed with the "feminist" narrative of the theretofore universal patriarchy when said above history is cited as evidence.
    3. When you inspired me i was per chance on the 4th or 5th of a whole bunch of "10 Great Women in History" youtube videos by the fine establishments you'd expect to produce such videos.
    Usually such lists - in video or text form - feature 10 women, of which 9 are Anglospherian, of which 7 are American, usually tilting heavily towards social activism or towards practical achievements that are either embelished or outright fabricated while also tilting towards victorianism. The one non-anglospherian is never from continental Europe or the middle east (that appears to be a hard rule) and is often a ruler or warlord i.e. the Trung sisters, Wu Zetian, some such, unless they go with Boudica for a full 10 out of 10.
    Needless to say this annoys me even more.

    So you got me all triggered. And to preempt @Timsup2nothin complaining that small Euro-Beta-Bird-countries banding together was unsportive i had to settle for just one.
    Being lazy i picked what i know. Hence the line about my avatar, the justified means and the Great Privilege.
    So we are doing an "Annoying Buzzfeedian List of Great Women and Gay Men - Djerman Edition".
    (Some with obviously bad reputation, not that that ever bothers the Anglospherian list-makers).

    The point would be for you to imagine how, say i, would have been a child and an adolescent and would have grown into the supposed heritage of my culture or some such and how that contrasts with said Patriarchy business with a side of Victorian hags.

    Admittedly this is going way worse than i expected while proving my point at the same time.
     
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  15. Angst

    Angst Rambling and inconsistent

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    Hey, I really don't care about the topic at hand. You claimed something very general about smaller countries in regards to dialects. That's what I'm answering.

    Itwouldn't surprise me that Californians would be received more positively than Texans in the capital. In the provinces, that are far more conservative, Texans might be receieved more positively. Denmark is surprisingly diverse due to the seperation of landmasses, even if small. I know that it's concerned the same ethnicity, but in my eyes it could easily go the other way around. People just identify the same due to our historical nationbuilding, in spite of the differences in language and values (and honestly most of the incomprehensible dialects are currently being wiped out due to a nationwide standard media language that severely influences the younger generations)
     
    Last edited: Nov 16, 2018
  16. metatron

    metatron unperson

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    Look, i usually don't mind when people switch the topic of one of "my" threads.
    I'm actually quite happy with that other thread having been about dialects now for a page or two.
    The point is: The other thread.
    I don't have to have two threads, which i started with somewhat lengthy opening posts, be about the same thing, that neither of them was originally about.
    That you feel it necessary to malign this thread here and in literally every post affirm your disregard for it doesn't make it better.
    You know about the discussion in the other thread. That's evident cause you quoted it here.
    I'd consider it a great idea for you to seek debate with @Timsup2nothin in the other thread. There are in fact other users in said other thread similarly in opposition to tim on this who'd surely wellcome you to the fold.
     
  17. Angst

    Angst Rambling and inconsistent

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    The discussion (ie your posts) in the other thread was similarly confusing mid discussion so I dunno. I was just answering a note from the OP, and then I answered his answer. I don't think what I'm doing is maligning. If you're frustrated at the reception of this thread, perhaps direct it at those who show active disdain for it, instead of calling out one of the people that are just neutrally clearing up a bad point. That said I really don't care, so I'll just not post here anymore unless tim is really insistent.
     
  18. yung.carl.jung

    yung.carl.jung Hey Bird! I'm Morose & Lugubrious

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    r16 is a legend. his style is so fleshed out and distinct only he himself can read and understand his posts.metatron on the other hand ranges from understandable to straight up chaos theory, there often seems to be no narrative structure, no frame of reference, no coherence between sentences and so on

    your attitude towards other, especially non-anglophone, people is fundamentally guided by your deeply ingrained feeling of American superiority and, even more, relevancy (even though you'll likely deny this and refer me to the 1,000,000 times you critisized your very own nation, which is a good objection). I like that about you, but it makes you come off as pretty smugmerican sometimes.

    I wonder how people feel about my ****** attitude or whether or not people think my posts make sense (or are at least readable/understandable?)

    I now understand exactly what you're talking about and I share your sentiments towards the anglospherian black and white reception of history. your posts structure is still awful, even with you trying to structure it properly :lol:
     
  19. Timsup2nothin

    Timsup2nothin Another drone in the hive mind

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    I actually intended to come off as just smug there, not smugmerican. I was trying to point to the previous smugness that differences in British accents would be so important that even people outside Britain (USian or otherwise), who have no real dealings whatever with Britain, should take the time to educate themselves about differing British accents because...well, because...because BRITAIN.
     
  20. Farm Boy

    Farm Boy The trees are actually quite lovely.

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    The Anglospherian refinement you might want to consider honing is the art of the backhanded compliment.
     

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