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Dear American Liberals: It's not my fault if your history is so straight and male.

Discussion in 'Off-Topic' started by metatron, Nov 10, 2018.

  1. metatron

    metatron deplorable ally

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    *blankface*
    Isn't the latter part of the former?
    Do i not have to cite evidence to establish that the former is a thing, so as to impress such a fact on people less enlightened than you?
    I mean i'm probably doing a bad job at it. But you can hardly say it made no sense.
    You are the people who - having swallowed many a gum - continue to make claims on that point.
    Oh, Mali features everywhere. Talking up Mali is a compulsive thing woke people have to do. It's, like, a rule.
    That i chose Majapahit as the particular association is essentially Bill Wurtz' fault (broad humor and whatnot). It may act as a stand in for this whole mindblowing realisation business that Asians actually did trade, that your post-victorian allies on the internet can't get enough of.
    Also... Majapahit starts with an M... like Mali.

    As for Extra Credits: I am aware of the channel and i have seen a minor portion of it. Didn't know they had a Majapahit thing, let alone one in five parts.
    To be perfectly honest i can't stand the guy's voice, which is problematic, because, well, it's high and that may be part of it.
     
    Last edited: Nov 20, 2018
  2. yung.carl.jung

    yung.carl.jung Morose & Lugubrious

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    carbs on carbs? yikes, that's a no from me, pal. and I love potato salad. yesterday I had two nice slices of sourdough, some butter from very happy cows, crisp lettuce and a good deli mortadella. it was heavenly.

    Danish restaurant culture is baller. I loved eating out in Copenhagen.. If only it wasn't so expensive..


    This is what you want us to believe, eh? Nice try.. The truth is however that the word hisTORY was coined in 1688 by a bunch of fun-hating Anglords that wanted to instill a notion of conservatism in the frivolous and life-affirming Englishmenandwomen. And look what happened to them..
     
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  3. Hrothbern

    Hrothbern Warlord

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    I love that as well :)
    Just with butter and some salt and pepper
     
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  4. yung.carl.jung

    yung.carl.jung Morose & Lugubrious

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    yeah man, we used to have that every day as children. Butterbrot mit Salz und Pfeffer. one of the simplest pleasures in life.
     
  5. Owen Glyndwr

    Owen Glyndwr La Femme Moderne

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    Weber, Hegel, Kant? Their historical perspectives were pretty damn Carlyle-esque. And it wasn't as though the French weren't participating in the Scottish-style stadial theory that advocated for a Eurocentric chauvinism that presupposed European supremacy on the basis of religious, cultural and economic justifications (e.g. Turgot, Quesnay, Montesquieu, De Nemours, Helvétius, and Condorcet).¹

    This is to say nothing of the structuralists whose historical and anthropological Praxis often boiled down to identifying specific components of European culture and myth, and then cherry-picking hyper-specific exempla from other cultures, divorcing them from their contextual cultural milieu in order to assert a human universalism that often fit in uncannily with a presupposed Western Greco-Romano-Christian cultural ideal (e.g. Lévi-Strauss), or else using this presupposed universalism in order to assert a normative model of human development with the European ideal representing the height of human progress (~Durkheim in some respects).

    I could also go on a giant rant about the early Indo-Germanic philologists, but I think you get the point.

    I mean the very Thing metatron appears to be railing against in that comment, is, in essence, an amateurish or myopic application of Poststructuralist or Postcolonialist schools of thought, which were themselves largely developed by French philosophers and historians (e.g. Fanon, Lacan, Foucault, etc.) in reaction to structuralist and universalizing schools of thought which were themselves the product of French and German philosophers and historians. The American educational system is generally bad at teaching the social sciences, I think that's a fairly uncontroversial claim. But the problem is less that American schools aren't teaching methods of historical and social analysis rooted in theories developed in Europe, so much as it is that they aren't teaching the right kinds of European-based theories. When you have to rely on youtube, tumblr, and wikipedia for pithy descriptions of what are, in fact, extremely complicated social theories, that's generally a good indication that your educational system has lost the plot.

    ¹Fun fact, there were a fair few Philosophes (Quesnay and Montesquieu(?)) who asserted the superiority of Protestant-based economic systems owing to their cultural foundation, and stated, in essence, that unless France as a Catholic nation became more Protestant-like, they would inevitably fall behind nations like Great Britain owing to their inherent superiority. In essence: Catholic philosophers arguing for more insufferable Protestantism.
     
    Last edited: Nov 20, 2018
  6. metatron

    metatron deplorable ally

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    You are also making this needlessly complicated. To be clear: There may be use in that, but there's no need to.

    What i am mocking here, railing against if you insist, is a the persepective of a liberal Anglosphere that does quite exist.
    @Traitorfish may be correct in that the specific one he academically applies the term to doesn't. The one i am talking about features 1) a certain historical virginity (the good guy narrative TF referenced (here or in the Memorial thread) and not having your nation... penetrated (pun) by foreign intervention in living memory (no, the Blitz doesn't suffice) and being debilitated by the privilege of speaking the global lingua franca as ones native language.
    In this application of the term Singapore isn't part of it, Hong Kong isn't, and Ireland isn't.

    Based on that conception of the term i am combining two grievances here:
    There's a general ignorance and... not sure what to call it... it's not nationalism obviously... but Anglospheriansm if you will, in general.
    As a function of that Anglosphere (as per the above) social justice warriors frequently apply an overly universal perception of - among other things - gender relations both past and present to vast parts of the developed world.
    In many such generalisations Japanaese and Koreans get grandfathered in, while the mere idea that my lived experience or my culture may be odds with the newest woke bullpucky is just absurd.
    Because nations and cultures don't exist and i'm just another "white" person.
     
  7. Owen Glyndwr

    Owen Glyndwr La Femme Moderne

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    Ok, I'm back to not really understanding what you're on about.

    Again, a big part of it for me is that your prose is...messy. It's hard for me to follow your line of thought when you express it in this stream-of-consciousness style.
     
  8. Timsup2nothin

    Timsup2nothin Another drone in the hive mind

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    Curiosity...what is the problem with mixed carbs? If I eat a bowl of potato salad I am eating mostly carbs, and no one says "oh, man, you can't do that." If I take a smaller amount of potato salad and put it in a sandwich, where honestly the bread is probably less than the amount of potato salad I'm skipping, people get all excited.
     
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  9. metatron

    metatron deplorable ally

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    I'm saying that:
    1. For the sake of this argument i understand "Anglosphere" to mean the US, Canada, Australia, New Zealand, England, Wales and Scotland. That's very narrow, but that's the function of the criteria i outlined.
    2. There are perspectives, views, items of opinion shared between social justice advocates, self-proclaimed "woke" people, whatever across this narrowly defined Anglosphere.
    3. Many of these views stem from said Anglosphere's privileged position in history on the one hand and from certain one-way effects related to having English as a native language.
    4. One mechanism of "3." is that you guys are frequently pretending that we (or all manner of other peoples) are more like you than we actually are, culturally. Because that's convenient for your brand of feminist ideology (not yours, personally, not the academic one, but the popular feminism that mainstream-ish left-of-centre media are up to).
    (At other times you guys pretend the reverse, i.e. that we are more alien than we actually are, when that is convenient, but that isn't relevant here).​
    I am not saying but want to be understood as implied that:
    5. I partially agree with @Traiterfish's criticism of Whig history. Partially because i do actually believe that ideas matter, that "cultures" exist and many other things that a sharply anti-whig view on history would at least contest (so i presume anyway, you're the expert not me).
    But i don't see fighting about some exact line of demarcation on that with TF and you not as particularly "fun" and i understood him as intellectually charitable in so far that i didn't percieve him to assert that the cultural memory of individual persons was some whigish nonsense in the first place and there for all the listmaking i mentioned was irrelevant in the first place.​
     
  10. yung.carl.jung

    yung.carl.jung Morose & Lugubrious

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    you're actually 100% correct, it's just something "you don't do". like eating rice and noodles. or eating potato and noodles. but, you know what? sometimes when I cook indian food I want both rice and naan bread. sometimes I want rice but still want potatoes in my curry. we often eat carbs on carbs and no one bats an eye. and then when you tell people you like potato salad on a sandwich they look at you like you just rimjobbed yourself with their iPhone. but there's literally nothing wrong with a potato salad sandwich. all the power to you :D
     
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  11. Angst

    Angst Rambling and inconsistent

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    Aye. It reminds me of the first 12 seconds of this video

     
  12. Akka

    Akka Moody old mage.

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    To sum up : US-centric anglosphere thinking that the entire West has exactly their own culture, while having the cultural memory of a toddler.
     
  13. Timsup2nothin

    Timsup2nothin Another drone in the hive mind

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    See, I think you are getting the wrong idea. We know that you don't have exactly our culture. We just don't understand why you seem to think that yours should matter to us.

    Example: If I lived in Spain, particularly on the Med coast, France would be right there. I'd be totally inclined to learn to speak French, just because French girls, if nothing else. I'd learn all there was to learn about French culture, because I'd almost certainly be inclined to hop a bus to France now and then, maybe even more like regularly. But I'm not going to France, probably ever. If I had the time to go to France there are a hundred places that are closer that I am just as interested in...maybe a thousand. So, no, I'm not likely to make any effort at all to learn even the slightest vestige of French culture. It just doesn't matter to me.
     
  14. Akka

    Akka Moody old mage.

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    Well, the point Metatron makes (if I understand correctly), and that I do see a lot in many discussion on Internet, is that maybe at some intellectual level the anglo-sphere knows and says "well, of course it's not the same culture", but in practice the basic assumption is always to take US culture as the baseline and not really getting that things don't work the same elsewhere.
    You just have to look at all the community and race discussions to see it, with always US posters giving lessons to the world at large, and always based on how things happens in the USA.
     
  15. Timsup2nothin

    Timsup2nothin Another drone in the hive mind

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    We base the discussion on how things happen in the USA because we are discussing things happening in the USA. We know France is there, but we just don't care. People in European countries have a sense that neighboring countries are relevant, because they are right there. To USians other countries are like clouds. Interesting to look at if you have time to lie in the grass, and occasionally dumping rain on a parade, but mostly just drifting by and all basically the same.
     
    Last edited: Nov 23, 2018
  16. metatron

    metatron deplorable ally

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    Erm, i suppose the point would be to better understand yourself.
    Like, in solving your own problems that information matters.
     
  17. Timsup2nothin

    Timsup2nothin Another drone in the hive mind

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    Cures that work on lab rats don't always scale to humans.
     
  18. metatron

    metatron deplorable ally

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    That's not the point.
    The point is understanding whether you actually have the same virus as the rat or not.
    Because if you get that call wrong you're probably going to run into trouble.
     
  19. Timsup2nothin

    Timsup2nothin Another drone in the hive mind

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    Only if you are focusing on the rat. If you ignore the rats in the first place the whole "same virus or not" question becomes moot.
     
  20. Manfred Belheim

    Manfred Belheim Warlord

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    Tangential thought:

    I can't help but suspect that if in some other certain discussions that happen on here, an analogy was made that equated one group of humans with "humans" and another group of humans with "lab rats", then this would be met with wails of "zomg he just compared Group X with lab rats! That's so deeply offensive and dehumanising etc etc."

    And yet in other discussions, it's perfectly fine because people are able to remember how analogies actually work in those cases.

    Funny that.
     

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