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Dear Devs: Buff Forts

Discussion in 'General Balance' started by pineappledan, Sep 24, 2020.

  1. pineappledan

    pineappledan Deity

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    i like this.
     
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  2. Stalker0

    Stalker0 Baller Magnus

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    I want to note that I don’t mind the science on stealth, but it’s also 100% irrelevant at that point in the game.

    3 science that late in the game does absolutely nothing, you could have 30 forts and it probably wouldn’t make a lick of difference.

    I say that just so people aren’t going (forts get X total yields, that’s too much/not enough).

    the stealth bonus shouldn’t even factor into that conversation, it’s an addendum for flavor, not for strength.
     
  3. JamesNinelives

    JamesNinelives Emperor

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    It does look pretty though :).

    Edit: actually, one thing it may affect is happiness? If a cities are working lots of forts they might be slightly less illiterate.

    You are very correct in terms of looking at 'how many yields do forts generate?' though. The main thing I want to ensure is balanced is that farms are still relevant, particularly before Agribusinesses become available. And also that I'm not chopping my rainforest down because forts generate more science and production.
     
    Last edited: Sep 28, 2020
  4. azum4roll

    azum4roll Emperor

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    The proposal does seem to generate more yields than logging camps in jungles without adjacency, if you value 1 production = 1 science = 2 gold.
     
  5. pineappledan

    pineappledan Deity

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    You mean lumber mill?
    2:c5food:1:c5production: from base tile
    1:c5production: (+1:c5production: for every 2 adjacent lumber mills)
    2:c5production: at metallurgy
    2:c5production: at combustion
    0.5:c5food: from Herbalist
    1:c5production:1:c5gold: from Workshop

    1:c5production:2:c5gold: from Industry
    3:c5production: from Order

    It is pretty close once you hit electronics, but that is 1.5 eras after combustion. If you include the building bonuses, lumber mills still come out ahead I think.
     
  6. JamesNinelives

    JamesNinelives Emperor

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    Not lumber mill for forests (those are lovely), the logging camp that you build on jungle tiles.
     
  7. ElliotS

    ElliotS Warmonger

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    To be fair those feel a bit weak to me as is. I'd support them getting a small buff.
     
  8. JamesNinelives

    JamesNinelives Emperor

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    The main benefit of logging camps is simply that they don't remove the jungle - so you get science and eventually culture from it. There's food per 2 tiles the Herbalist. Potentially more science if you take Rationalism and/or yields from the Renewal Pantheon or the Celtic one.

    The total yields in most cases are 2:c5food: 1:c5production: 1:c5science: 1-3:c5gold: 1:c5culture: 2:tourism:, after Zoos which unlock at Scientific Theory. Which is pretty decent. Comparing it to proposed forts at electronics, 2:c5production: 4:c5science: or 3:c5production: 3:c5science:. Eh. Jungle tiles w/logging camps compete reasonably well. Arguably logging mills should get some kind late-game buff. I kind of like that most of the yields come from the feature though. Most of the proposed fort yields also come fairly late though (which makes sense).
     
  9. Gidoza

    Gidoza Emperor

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    Do Forts reduce Distress in the city? Maybe each worked Fort could reduce Distress by 1. Instead of actual yields, give Forts some alternative bonuses of some kind.
     
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  10. Zanteogo

    Zanteogo King

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    I like this.

    I would also give them a +5 to healing as well.

    I hardly ever build them. The defense they offer is usually not a big deal. If you are playing a war civ you do more attacking than defending, so the fort just blocks a tile that could be used for something else. They might be good on desert tiles I guess.

    If you give them too much yields it defeats the reason for them though, working the tile should generally give more that putting a defensive building on it. This is why I support giving them "other" things.
     
  11. pineappledan

    pineappledan Deity

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  12. tothePAIN

    tothePAIN King

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    Forts seem fine. I still build them mainly for defense. Sometimes the citizen tile AI for a city will select a fort and I'm mostly fine with it. They're decent with the right policies. The 50% defense is still impactful enough, particularly since the mounted cavalry line / tank line benefits from defense from forst and citadels.
     
  13. JamesNinelives

    JamesNinelives Emperor

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    They start out fine but are way to strong in mid and late game. Even without policy-specific buffs, there were situations where a fort would give 3 science vs. a farm giving 2 food. At one point (I think when I researched Military Theory), I was genuinely thinking of swapping a whole swathe of my improvements for forts. I decided to wait until Agribusinesses unlocked, but at that point comparing a fort to a farm or a village was kind of silly. I'll write a game report with a little more detail tomorrow.

    Spoiler :
    20201017025410_1.jpg
     
  14. Novntis

    Novntis Chieftain

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    What about giving forts border growth (local_culture) as a worked base yield? Logically, it makes sense that forts help expand your territorial claim. Also synergizes well with authority early game to get you more border growth yields when you likely wouldn't be building forts otherwise. I don't like that they're just currently a mini-late game academy with defense.
     
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  15. randomnub

    randomnub Prince

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    Please, your workers have other priorities.

    Spoiler :
    civroads.png


    Good thinking. :thumbsup:
     
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  16. Novntis

    Novntis Chieftain

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    If anyone has any yield recommendations for forts that also produce border growth points, I'll try to put together a mod-mod to test them. So far I'm thinking +1 :c5science: Science +1 Border Growth Point as base is probably fine. Maybe swapping 1 science for 2 border growth on later tech boosts. :dunno:

    I feel like thematically, Colonialsim should also give BGP. Logically these changes should also impact Citadels to some extent.
     
  17. JamesNinelives

    JamesNinelives Emperor

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    I know it looks chaotic, but it's there for a reason - I swear! XD
    That feels too strong as a base yield to me, given it also provides defense. 1 science is already a pretty fair yield in the Classical Era. How about this?

    2 base
    2 :c5science: at chemistry
    2 :c5production: 1 at military science
    3 :c5science: at electronics

    Alternately,
    1 :c5production: 1 base
    2 :c5science: at chemistry
    1 :c5production: 2 at military theory
    3 :c5science: at electronics

    I'm not really sure how much 1 is worth, so I'm happy to take feedback. I didn't include the yields unlocked at stealth for now (unsure if people want to keep that or not?) or from policies/wonders.
     
    Last edited: Oct 20, 2020
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  18. Stalker0

    Stalker0 Baller Magnus

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    A fair question. So we know that 1 culture also provides 1 border growth, so its less than 1 culture. How much less?

    I would say even less than 1/2, as the main reason I get culture is for policies not for border growth, so perhaps 1/4 or 1/3 of a culture. So something like 3 border growth = 1 science.
     
  19. pineappledan

    pineappledan Deity

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    I see no reason for forts to be at all attractive initially; My ideal balance for forts is that they are definitely weaker than other improvements unless combined with 2+ sources of policy/wonder/CivUnique bonuses that push them over into usefulness.

    This is what I would do:
    1 base
    1:c5science: at steel
    1:c5production: at chemistry
    2:c5science: at military science
    2:c5production: at electronics
    1:c5science::c5production: at stealth
    Total yields would be 3/3/3 at Electronics, and then 4/4/4 at Stealth
     
    Last edited: Oct 20, 2020
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  20. Gazebo

    Gazebo Lord of the Community Patch Supporter

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    Reminder that my iterative design goal is to push something to its breaking point to find the limit, then pull back to a reasonable value based on feedback. It is a tested and solid method.

    G
     
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