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Dear Firaxis, All I want for Christmas is...

Discussion in 'Civ5 - General Discussions' started by The Mad Russian, Oct 14, 2011.

  1. The Mad Russian

    The Mad Russian Armchair Dictator

    Joined:
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    Location:
    Wherever I May Roam
    ...for you to fix Civ 5 Diplomacy damnit!!!!

    In my recent game on a Panagea Plus map as England, one of my neighbors, Monty, is being more of a jackass than usual.

    Our tight borders and troops are causing a lot of tension and war could break out any second, even though I am aiding him in a war financially against our other neighbor, the Incas.

    He's freely passing through my land as we share Open Borders and no matter what, he's Guarded towards me, even borderline hostile. Now I have no troops in his lands at all, and yet he's irritated saying that I am trespassing in his country and the two diplomatic options are to tell him to go to hell and declare war or the wussy way out saying that our units are just passing through the area and not to worry.

    Now I know close borders and opposite facing troops cause this concern as well, but this is the 4th time I have had to take the easy way out looking like a frightened cornered dog, but this time, Monty's had enough of me. This leads to something I have rarely seen in Civ 5 - a true World War. Resulting from a broken diplomacy system!!

    A web of forced alliances from all over the continent begin to take shape. Now I have never in this game yet DoWd anyone and have had decent trading relations with all leaders. But I guess that doesn't matter in this game.

    The other 5 leaders (besides those mentioned above) must've stopped taken their meds all at the same time because looking on Info Addict, everyone is now fighting every one else, only two turns from a relatively peaceful and harmonious game.

    Eventually, it leads to nuclear war, three countries decimated by fallout (Spain, myself and Korea) and total chaos everywhere else. Can someone explain what the hell happened? Is all this a result of just how terrible the diplomacy system is in this game or was the Aztec demand the final straw and everybody just finally let loose?

    I wish I understood.

    -Mark
     
  2. shihuacao

    shihuacao Chieftain

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    Looks like a possible scenario in real world to me.
     
  3. The Pilgrim

    The Pilgrim Deity

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    This, please! And release an expansion pack! Pretty please! :D

    Totally normal for this game. I also find it very frustrating. You should be able to line the troops inside your borders for defense without being penalized. In 'real' world you neighbor can act like a whiny mushy girl and get offended by you not trusting her, however we all know, Monty cannot be trusted. The only reasonable conclusion - he is crappy neighbor regardless his attitude, which is almost always deceptive. If you can kick his whiny ass, do it. Provoke him to DoW you first if you can. Same with Alex, August, Oda, Genghis, Cathy, Napoleon, Bismark, Suleiman, Ramesess... Obviously I can go on and on. Anyone you share border with. :D
     
  4. wannabewarlord

    wannabewarlord Prince

    Joined:
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    Location:
    Switzerland
    Isn't there a rant thread where posts like this belong? There is really no need to open up a new "fix this" thread. Thread number 582502502, by the way (no, I didn't count).
     
  5. apocalypse105

    apocalypse105 Deity

    Joined:
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    Every AI is deceptive thats makes the game precictable in a bad way .... I can't trust non AI and I usally dont interact with them because of this as result there is no diplomacy... In a game that promisses it...


    the AI wants you're land even if its on a other continent or on the other side of the map. As result at some point every AI hates you. It seams like its a code against the human player

    Second of all Ai makes his decleration of wars on numbers as result he will allways decalre war on AI that are weaker at them thats why you see so many decleration of wars denouncings...


    Yeah I can talk many more about why diplomacy is non existent in this game and needs to be fixed but apperently people thinx the current system has no flaws and is
    good...
     
  6. Rex_Mundi

    Rex_Mundi Prince

    Joined:
    Mar 23, 2011
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    Location:
    Denmark
    Compared to earlier versions Civ5 is designed as a war game, the opponents are designed to view it as a game they want to win.
    So at the end of the game when people get close to winning tention builds up, and wars break out.

    Diplomacy is a smaller feature, it can let you do some trading, but you are not supposed to keep the peace by design.

    At least that is my impression.
     
  7. CultureManiac

    CultureManiac Prince

    Joined:
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    Location:
    Beijing
    You think in real life a country can rally a bunch of troops along its border and say it's just for "defense"? That's led to a lot of real wars.

    If Monty is stacking troops near me, that makes me nervous, so why shouldn't he be able to react the same?
     
  8. The Pilgrim

    The Pilgrim Deity

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    Well, I'm not only complaining about veggies, I'm asking for candy too. Does it count? :mischief:
    On second thought, you're right. Nothing new will be said here.
     
  9. Gismo

    Gismo Chieftain

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    Location:
    Hamburg, Germany
    ... Civ 4.5 please? :D

    Oh well, expansion pack for Civ 5 is more likely, I guess...
     
  10. woodshadows

    woodshadows King

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    Newfoundland
    maybe if some bonus was given for staying in an alliance/friendship with another civ, the longer the bigger the bonus. whether diplomatic or trade, then it wouldn't contradict the ai programming to seek it's best advantage, only it's best advantage would at times consist in maintaining friendships/alliances. maybe even have victory allowed to members of an alliance, perhaps in a more modern era, with a policy or tech, opening it up to availability.

    nations of course stab eachother in the back, throughout history, but the level of backstabbing in this game is not reflective of reality. nations/leaders had to practice a certain level of consistency in their actions, both for the eyes of the population they ruled and for the eyes of the many other nations in the vicinity. i personally miss being able to form friendships with certain civs, in this game i see everyone as an enemy and try to crush them all ruthlessly.
     
  11. apocalypse105

    apocalypse105 Deity

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    Well then the designers failed and lied to the customers
    As jon shafer said in a interview we dont just want it to be a wargame there are more other ways to win the game .....


    Its funny that in a game where trading is so important and there are other ways to win without war unlike other games there is no diplomacy it destroys the "civilization game series" feeling.

    One thing I liked abou civilization was the different ways you could win in this game I feel there is only 1 way war like any other turn based strategy game
     
  12. Optional

    Optional Deity

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    There's so much still off in this game.

    City production numbers are often wrong, just count the hammers and you'll see it's often off...
    On the small diplo screen the gold info of civs is always off...
    Worker turns to completion as it's given is always a number too high...

    And that's just what I'm noticing by casually playing the game, it's probably the tip of the iceberg.

    These are very basic things, calculations going wrong all over the place. It's hard to believe the game is still in such a state after so many patches.

    I know the diplomacy system is a problem for many people, but some of that is opinion as well, and most players would only be satisfied when it got a serious overhaul. I personally hope Firaxis will first address all the maths errors in this game.

    Yeah, it does bug if I'm trying to build a University in a town that's making 8 hammers, but for some reason only 6 are getting counted...
     
  13. headcase

    headcase Limit 1 Facepalm Per Turn

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    The diplo is kind of dumb but I'd rather they fix the AI's tactics and grand strategy first.

    Funny story.

    @woodshadows: Yeah, they need to add trading in some way. At least that would, er, give peace a chance.
     
  14. mutant-enemy

    mutant-enemy Warlord

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    Yeah, Monty as neighbour and thinking of peaceful coexistence... Would've been a restart reason for me as I know this won't work.
    Still, why didn't you make friends with the Inca instead? C'mon, two fronts for Monty, some effort and he would have been gone for good (probably).

    Apart from constellations like this (Monty, Genghis, Alex next to me) I don't have any diplomatic problems at all however. Don't know what the fuzz is about.
     
  15. woodshadows

    woodshadows King

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    anytime i have monty beside me i know im going to have a very good game. i guess he's programmed to declare war on multiple people with just a handful of jaguars he spams and doesn't know how to use effectively. he ends up with maybe two cities, his capital and one he built himself, a bunch of jaguars, often negative in money, stagnant science, no infrastructure in his cities, and lots of enemies. very easy first target. alexander on the other hand is dangerous.
     
  16. KillingMeSoftly

    KillingMeSoftly Warlord

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    World war setting off? Seems like a very active game.

    It sounds to me like you've been signing Declarations of Friendship with many other civilizations over the course of the game. It's easy to think this is the way to good relations, but it's the inverse. You should instead pay attention to other civilization's diplomatic standings before you ever sign friendship, as this is essentially an alliance. Beyond that, you should only sign friendship with others if its in your favor and will help your game, otherwise you should remain neutral. Any enemies of your allies won't like you much, and will incur diplomatic penalties.

    Secondly, wars happen and you should expect them. If you don't then that's just asking the computer to roll in and start claiming your lands. Certain civilizations are naturally warlike and expansive, being near them will cause tensions if you don't stay on their good side. You should really be ready to fight a war at any time, and you should keep tabs on all the civilizations, especially your neighbors.

    I'm pretty good at working the diplomacy system. It isn't without its flaws but it isn't broken. Unless I'm playing aggressively, which I assume most people do, I'm generally left to my own devices because I don't sign a lot, or any, friendships. It keeps me relatively neutral with everyone. Thus I can fight the wars of my choosing. I also make it a habit to keep a decent army in the case a war does break out that I didn't start, that way it's not a major problem. The game would be far too easy if you could just coast through the victory with the only major threat being barbarians. I believe Settler difficulty keeps the AI from declaring war on you, if you want a peaceful science or culture game without worrying about diplomacy.

    People wage war constantly through the entire history of mankind. It isn't realistic to expect it to never happen to you.
     
  17. SuperJay

    SuperJay Bending Space and Time

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    I actually think diplomacy and int'l relations is more stable than it used to be. Still erratic, but not quite as erratic... at least in the few recent games I've played since picking Civ5 back up. :)
     
  18. Junuxx

    Junuxx Emperor

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    This sounds awesome. Wish my games were like that.
     
  19. binhthuy71

    binhthuy71 Emperor

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    Happiness is opening the Diplomacy screen and seeing Monty's status as "Afraid."

    Diplomacy in CiV is, in my opinion, way better than in CiIV. I remember many teeth-gnashing moments in CiIV where you'd meet a Civ and open trade. Then you'd meet another Civ and they'd already hate you because you traded with their enemy.
     
  20. The Pilgrim

    The Pilgrim Deity

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    Yeah, and getting a DoW 5 turns later. Good stuff.

    That's true. Probably the most annoying part of Civ4 diplomacy. But still it was better. Just because it actually existed.
     

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