Death To Spies (In BTS)

[krasny]

spies are a big problem in BTS

let me explain. in the late game i get constantly gang-raped by wave upon wave of AI spies, some of them even from friendly Civs

i had taken all reasonable precautions, namely building securiy bureaux and stationing a spy in each of my cities

i really can't be arsed with sending spies every 10 turns to an AI city on counter espionarge missions, cos i'm lazy and hate stupid micromanagement, i play Civ to have fun, not as a second job

but still i was getting gang-raped

i was close to quitting Civ in disgust, at least until the next patch, cos i don't like getting gang-raped and Civ was no longer fun

however i love Civ and thought how could i make the AI Civs stop spamming spies?

the answer was change the build cost of spies. so i made a small mod (just changed one line in XML [what ever that is, why didn't they use a spreadsheet format for game data?]) to increase the build cost of a spy to that of infantry

it worked! a game without me getting gang-raped, YAY!

the down side is spies are WAY to expensive in the pre-industial era YET the AI was still building some, this could unbalance the game

one way of solving this would be to increase the cost of a spy over time

however since i do not know how to do this, i must pass buck to modders or hope that firaxis recognise that espionarge is broken and fix it in the next patch

 

[mnf]

I played along the ideas of one of the Realms Beyond adventures (IIRC) and gave myself Communism in the beginning. I was happily playing along and all of a sudden found that the AIs were strangely advanced for that time. It turned out that one of them went all out and stole Communism from me and traded out to everyone.

Active spy missions are irritating, very. But it is also a very good way to make up for AI economy inefficiencies. It'll be quite a lot of micromanagement if one wants to achieve the same kind of activities.

What you can do is to modify the following, all done just editing the XML:

1) Buildings: take all spy specialist slots out, and make all espionage point bonuses zero. This includes the palace. Remember this must include the great spy points from wonders. Make it something else.

2) Techs: take out the free great spy from techs.

This will ensure there's absolutely no EP available to spend on active missions, and it means spies are cut down to a purely observational unit.

But I'd really like an option to turn off spying though. I mean in custom game you can turn off tech trading, war, peace, city flipping, etc. It only makes sense to be able to turn off espionage.

Either that, or give us some way to automate spies. Things like a "initiate mission after five turns" button. Or "follow this particular enemy unit around" button. Or "automated health resource sabotage" mission type, or for happiness, or for strategic resources. Just like how we have automated missionaries and workers can be put to automate trade networks.

Then it feels more like we're masters of the empire.

 

[SlipperyJim]

If you increase your Espionage expenditures, then it will cost more EP for the AI spies to mess with you. That should slow them down a bit, right?

Espionage seems to be an arms race, like so many other things in Civ. If you're out in front, then it's good. If you're behind, then it's not so good.

 

[spincrus]

I'm missing a single thing from the old espionage system, and that is the spies being national units. Should be limited to three.

 

[vodobas]

Do your own spies actually help defend against spies? I thought I read there was a mission to kill enemy spies, but I never see it. Do military units help defend against espionage like in pre-BTS? It seems my success rates are really high regardless of enemy units in cities.


In a different vein, has anyone had the chance to run an "Influence culture" mission? I've never seen that one show up.

 

[Lurking Liu]

Spies aren't so much of a much. Espionage is nothing more than a pin-prick against your empire. I play Marathon, where Poison Water is enormous and lasts forever, but even I don't really care. A single Granary is enough to protect a city--If you're losing 15 population, that's due to poor planning. ...And a glitch in the game, yeah, but an easily mitigated one.

If they sabotage a resource, then your large stack of workers run down and fix it in a turn. Meanwhile, they used a bunch of EPs to fund it.

Other than the obvious things that need fixing (poison water/foment unrest are too strong in slower speeds) the only thing that's wrong is that a failed mission doesn't cost any EPs. That ought to be fixed.

 

[UnspokenRequest]

I'm in the later stage (got industrialism) of an epic game (prince, large map, 15 civs, 3 hemispheres). The number of spy points I have against all my opponents is enough of a shield from other spies. I produce about 750 spy point per turn. It will be more soon, since I have recent conquered cities that have yet to catch up economically.
I left the spy points at 10% for most of the game.
I've got a large advance against almost every other civs in terms of spy points. This advance in spy points is enough of a shield against the spies of other civs.

I often gets messages of spys getting caught in my borders. It's been centuries since anyone managed a successful spy mission against one of my cities (and this civ payed with its life!!!).

Spy is not that bad. You just have to start building your reserve of spy points early on.
Also, I think the fact that there are many civilizations in my game, makes it a bit less of a problem, as the AI spread their spy points on many opponents.
I hope they place priority on the civs that are on their continent, but I'm not sure they are actually doing it...

 

[krasny]

having a good EP ratio helps defend against espionarge?

 

[Quagga]

What is the anti-spy unit? The worker. Build more of them. Automate them. They'll fix those strategic resources up right quick. (Like pollution control in CivIII.)

Put a spy in every city and a spy on every strategic resource.

Build courthouses as soon as possible. Build walls in prep for castle, then castle as soon as you have engineering.

If spying really bothers you, run a spy specialist until you get a Great Spy. At that point you can build Scotland Yard. Maybe continue with the spy specialists and settle them in the SY city or in a nearby enemy city.

I got used to the continuous spy messages. Now my interest is whether I stopped the spy and if I did, did I find out who sent it. Things blow up now and then, but I mostly just shrug it off. Poisoned water is a little irritating, but I figure it's costing the AI more to poison me than it is for me to endure it.

Once, I did have a game where Shaka unleashed a devastating spy attack against me just as he declared war. I'm more prepared these days.

I do agree that operating spies is too much micromanagement. They have to sit a while to be effective. By time I want to use them and can afford to do so, they've been discovered.

They are pretty good for mapping enemy territory, though I don't think the mapping can be automated either.

 

[SlipperyJim]

At the very least, having an EP advantage makes the other civs' attempts more expensive. I don't know if it actually makes any difference to the chance of success....

 

[krasny]

nobody except firaxis knows about spies

and they ain't talking

this confusion is a shambles

 

[AlessioCerci]

Theres nothing wrong with spies atm, i never get any serious troubles.

 

[bonafide11]

Other than the obvious things that need fixing (poison water/foment unrest are too strong in slower speeds) the only thing that's wrong is that a failed mission doesn't cost any EPs. That ought to be fixed.

Oh I certainly hope they don't make it so failed missions cost EP. It would be quite irritating for me if I planned out a perfect military invasion with a stack of troops sitting next to a neighbor's city and a few spies waiting in the city to support a city revolt only to fail because first spy got caught and I no longer have enough EP to use to support the city revolt. There is no reason that failed missions should cost EP.

 

[jray]

Oh I certainly hope they don't make it so failed missions cost EP. It would be quite irritating for me if I planned out a perfect military invasion with a stack of troops sitting next to a neighbor's city and a few spies waiting in the city to support a city revolt only to fail because first spy got caught and I no longer have enough EP to use to support the city revolt. There is no reason that failed missions should cost EP.

But isn't it at least as irritating that your rivals also spam their spies until they succeed at destroying your strategic resources and granaries, poisoning your water, etc.? This would be toned down to a tolerable level if the AI had to pay for all their failed missions too.

And how realistic is it that a failed mission incurs no cost (besides the measely production cost of the spy itself)? As things are now, all you have to do is send a few transports worth of spies to accomplish any mission with a small success probability.

 

[UnspokenRequest]

having a good EP ratio helps defend against espionarge?

At least, that is what I read on another thread (I'm not sure I can recover it). And, according to the game I just played, it seems to work.
Of course, I used the other methods described above to counter spies too, but I really think it makes a difference.

 

[Zhahz]

I'd likely disable the new espionage system if it were an option, as it just doesn't add anything fun to the game for me and I find the whole system to be way overdone and tedious.

I wouldn't be surprised to see the system get a good rebalancing with the first patch, whenever it comes (probably months).

 

[Bushface]

I like spies - my own, that is. And it is definitely a Good Thing to have more EPs against a foe than he has against you, for two reasons: firstly, your missions are cheaper (and I suppose his are more expensive, though there seems no way to prove this), and secondly you can investigate his cities. The latter is a great help in deciding whether to sabotage (and what), foment, or whatever, and is also useful in deciding whether to raze a captured city or not, in the hope that at least one useful building will survive.
As spies are cheap and EPs are easy to generate, I'm very happy with espionage as it is.

 

[Molon Labe]

Wow, that's a lot of gang raping.

I like spies. I'm not a micro-manager at all and haven't found the espionage system to be a problem. Sometimes I have my water poisoned, sometimes buildings sabotaged or builds destroyed. It's certainly not anywhere near what I would call rough prison loving.

You have spies too. You have access to the espionage system. Use them. It's not difficult and doesn't require micromanaging. It's not like you weren't building courthouses before, right?

I really don't think this aspect of espionage needs a mod for balance. It's just an aspect of the game that requires a little bit of preparation, not even micromanaging.

Build a few spies, station them in your territory. Do counter espionage missions. I don't think you'll run into anything as dramatic as a shower scene from OZ then.

 

[Mewtarthio]

Oh I certainly hope they don't make it so failed missions cost EP. It would be quite irritating for me if I planned out a perfect military invasion with a stack of troops sitting next to a neighbor's city and a few spies waiting in the city to support a city revolt only to fail because first spy got caught and I no longer have enough EP to use to support the city revolt. There is no reason that failed missions should cost EP.

Why not? What do you think Espionage Points represent? They're supposed to be all the contacts and back doors you've built into your rival's system. When you perform a successful mission, your rival tightens security, arrests your moles, etc, represented by the cost of the mission. Why, then, would none of this happen if you succeeded? Or, if you disagree with this interpretation, what is your interpretation of the system in which it's illogical to lose EPs due to a failed mission (now, you could make a case for a reduced loss if the mission fails, but I can't see it eliminated entirely).

 

[Lurking Liu]

Oh I certainly hope they don't make it so failed missions cost EP. It would be quite irritating for me if I planned out a perfect military invasion with a stack of troops sitting next to a neighbor's city and a few spies waiting in the city to support a city revolt only to fail because first spy got caught and I no longer have enough EP to use to support the city revolt. There is no reason that failed missions should cost EP.

Of course there's a reason. What do you think EPs represent?

In real life, sending twenty spies into the same city to do a job isn't exactly inconspicuous. It only raises the difficulty of the mission. If one is caught, the rest are compromised. represents the resources necessary to insert an agent, keep them safe, and pull off the mission.

What, did you think the spy just goes into the city and says "Hey, you guys, rebel!" No, it takes resources--Success or failure regardless.