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December Balance Beta - December 3rd (12/3)

Discussion in 'Community Patch Project' started by Gazebo, Dec 3, 2018.

  1. CrazyG

    CrazyG Deity

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    Petra is a local wonder, therefore it makes sense for all other wonders to be local?

    Its not good logic. Wonders can do whatever they want, some local, some not. This variety gives the game variety. If Temple of Artemis is local only, I don't think its every worth building. Literally never. Its a balanced, already somewhat weak wonder, as it is. We could completely redesign it, or we could accept that wonders all have their own effects. One choice is clearly better in this situation.
     
  2. Rekk

    Rekk Emperor

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    Temple of Artemis is currently one part local, one part global, right?
     
  3. Txurce

    Txurce Deity

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    Yes.
     
  4. arthurF

    arthurF Warlord

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    Hey G, what sort of "very careful planning of growth and yields" do you mean? The only thing I've seen that sort of works is forcing cities to have no population growth until they get more buildings, and then restart the pop growth. The default setting for which tiles a city chooses to work seems to be pretty good ....because when i change those tiles by locking them manually, i seldom affect happiness by more than 1 after changing 3 or 4 tiles.
    The problem for me and happiness is that in certain not-very-rare conditions, happiness has huge swings turn to turn, for reasons that are not easy to ascertain ...and if I did know, not sure what i could do about it, other than the aforementioned method.

    As for going very wide, on higher difficulty settings on large maps, i don't see any other real choice. If you don't eat land, then the AI does, and their enormous production and armies will quickly swamp you if you try going tall with 4 or 5 cities (for instance).
     
    Last edited: Dec 16, 2018
  5. glider1

    glider1 Deity

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    Yeah but like Gaz said, tall is better for lower difficulties. As you get better at the game you start to go wider and play on higher difficulties. It means having to micro more but micro becomes more efficient as you get better at the game.

    Here is a mod I use to help me better understand happiness changes. I like it a lot but it probably needs more work. It is designed for VP mod by me and works perfectly. It pops up a notification of what has changed in happiness the instant it changes. It actually adds a lot of flavor because you get an instant reaction from your citizens when a road is pillaged or whatever :)
     

    Attached Files:

  6. Txurce

    Txurce Deity

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    I just read this and haven't tried it, but this sounds like a version of what Gazebo has been working on for the EUI. Jumping the hell out of the gun, would it make sense for you two to work together and incorporate it into VP itself?
     
    vyyt likes this.
  7. glider1

    glider1 Deity

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    Hi Txurce the little mod can be installed in any on going game so give it a go first. It can be annoying because every time there is a change it throws up a pop-up! What is cool though is you get to see the various issues the citizens have for every change which often conflict with each other in interesting ways.

    I personally mod the happiness system to make it much more "acute" for my tastes. The happiness system is actually very intuitive and adds an extra layer of interest to each turn when it is made more razor sharp. At the moment is not showing its full colors because it is watered down too much for the general public's need for low micro.
     
    vyyt and Txurce like this.
  8. Txurce

    Txurce Deity

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    Where do I place both files?
     
  9. glider1

    glider1 Deity

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    A manual install like a regular mod. Unzip it and the unzipped folder goes into the mods folder then enabled in game like usual. Save game compatible, doesn't touch any game files.
     
  10. documental

    documental Chieftain

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    The installer when placing EUI may need to be looked at. My steam is in the local disk directory instead of program files (86x) (recommended not to place it there for skyrim apparently) however it created a new steam folder in program files (86x) for UI_bc1. The first time around it didn't do this at all (the new steam folder was created 9 minutes ago).

    This isn't a terribly big deal though as all I need to do is move the folder over. It's worth noting steam (and civ 5) was originally in program files (86x). I uninstalled all my games and steam and located it elsewhere all for a game I *still* don't have the patience for. This is probably just a failure of the registry failing to update properly.

    Makes you wonder if anything else could go awry..
     
    Last edited: Dec 16, 2018
  11. vyyt

    vyyt Emperor

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    @documental, sadly, this is a known bug with the autoinstaller. Gazebo said it cannot be helped (not with the free software being used). It always picks the default Steam folder location for EUI.

    @Gazebo, maybe it should be mentioned in the install thread? See the latest posts there, it is not a rare occurrence, several people have had this problem recently.
     
  12. ryanmusante

    ryanmusante Regular Supporter

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    Could you publish this to Civ 5 downloads page? I like to watch resources and stay updated on them.
     
    glider1 likes this.
  13. BiteInTheMark

    BiteInTheMark Emperor

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    Around one and a half year ago, focusing growth was a valiable strategy to overcome the plenty bonuses of the AI, if the human wanted a relative peaceful game. While sacrificing the lead and yields in midgame, having much more population in the lategame gave a lot of advantages. I dont want to discuss if it was really too strong, maybe, but a lot of changes were made afterwards, which makes a game with a focus on growth kinda....... well yeah, you get blamed as noob everytime if you say you like to grow your cities. (Maybe because everyone thinks your working 20 farm tiles on grasland and nothing else.... ;))

    At the moment, playing growth oriented is hard to play. Still trying to do so is a difficult task and often not really rewarding.
    Discussing this in an already finished game may be meaningless, because your running against windmills. But this is a living and changing mod and we should think about balancing different playstyles. Per definition, theres only one optimal way to play/win the game. But in a greatly balanced game, different ways to play lead to a similar good result. I see no reason why a growth oriented playstyle should be hard to play or not rewarding in the end. In general, and not only based on the values by this version. A focus on growth punishes you at the moment you focus on it, cause your food output comes from the sacrifice of other yields, like science and culture. This decreases your ability to do better in other areas but you do it to get an advantage in later stages of the game. Absolutly logic and nothing wrong with it. In second place, based on the yield per citizen connection to happiness, your unhappiness rise, cause every additional citizen cant work as efficient as the previous citizen. This effect alone is a strong factor which increase your unhappiness by more population cause we have a yield per pop based happiness system. Its ok.
    But something I cant understand is the population modifier to the needs of the population, which is a third punishment for additional citizen. I can understand you want a realistic behavior of population and infrastructure management. But this is already represented by the yield per pop mechanic, why an additional exponential modifier?

    I think we can make a great step forward, if we are able to balance point one and two of the punishments. If we are able to do so, we dont need any population modifier anymore and also such strange, artificial "save-the-median" mechanics.

    At the moment, new players are running again and again in the trap of growing and self destruction by unhappiness. Instead we should try to create a corridor, which balances the invested and gained yields better. If I invest too much in growth, I fall back too much in midgame and will have a hard time to face technological and cultural superior enemies, but may be rewarded with a very strong lategame. If I invest not enough, I may be strong in midgame, but fall back in lategame due to taller nations. If the new player see, hes lacking population, science or culture in one part of the game or another, he may adopt his strategy and get closer to the optimal play. But now, he plays the game typical to industrial age, his unhappiness falls like a stone and then give up to happiness. And nothing was learned.
     
  14. Minh Le

    Minh Le King

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    Does the current happiness system scales with difficulty? It seems like people playing on lower difficulty suffer from happiness issue a lot while people playing harder difficulty doesnt seem so. If it is not I think it should scale with difficulty, like reduce needs in lower difficulty for example.
     
  15. Gazebo

    Gazebo Lord of the Community Patch Supporter

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    For the record, the static median system was not added for balance purposes. It was added for transparency and player agency purposes.

    Growth is absolutely valid and useful right now. It isn’t being punished unfairly, any more than focusing exclusively on any one yield is punished. Look at some of the recent India let’s plays if you doubt this.

    G
     
  16. Enginseer

    Enginseer Salientia of the Community Patch Supporter

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    The only thing growth is being punished is when you neglect infrastructure. If you're growing just so your city can work more farms. You're doing it wrong.

    Or you're doing Ancient China simulator just right.
     
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  17. inzlinger

    inzlinger Chieftain

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    On Immortal I had to stop growth in all my Cities as India in early industrial and I didn't neglect infrastructure. I can manage it but it is no fun. The same with "Ancient China Simulator". Why should I play progress china, when I couldn't spam cities?
     
  18. Owlbebach

    Owlbebach Emperor

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    I actually did have problems with happiness swings in my last game, and they were quite hard, like from +15 to -20. But i was playing Fealty-Rationalism, i was 10 techs ahead of everyone and i neglected Zoos and some other buildings that reduce Boredom need. Also i was under heavy ideological pressure. And on top of that everything started when i took Order's +3 population in every city while having 10 non-puppet cities.
    Spoiler Turn 421 :
    upload_2018-12-17_21-0-0.png

    Spoiler turn 426 :
    upload_2018-12-17_21-0-48.png

    Spoiler Turn 442 :
    upload_2018-12-17_21-5-6.png

    Spoiler Turn 451 :
    upload_2018-12-17_21-5-52.png

    Spoiler Turn 456 :
    upload_2018-12-17_21-7-12.png


    The difference between me and other players is that i know exactly what happened and why and i know how to fix it. But it was quite challenging and i wouldn't say that it was fun, it is still better when happiness does not change THAT fast.

    And yeah, i wanted to do a playthrough, took 70 screens, but i am too lazy to write the text
     

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    Last edited: Dec 17, 2018
    vyyt likes this.
  19. Stalker0

    Stalker0 Baller Magnus

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    Agreed. This is one of those things thst has languished as we have pushed through changes, and so cleanup is needed. But just complaining doesn’t help.

    Looking for areas that need text updates Is a great area for people to help the mod get polished for gold.
     
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  20. BiteInTheMark

    BiteInTheMark Emperor

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    Growth not in general, but count how often people say "you played bad cause you let your cities grow too big". Or something similar.
    For me, the main question is, if we already have a growing negative effect by less yields for every additional population, do we need an additional modifier which do exactly the same but with more effect? Could we remove this modifier if we are able to balance the invested yields (food) with the yields you get from more population (....), making it more attractive to dont grow cause of yields, instead of simply stop growth cause you have to by unhappiness?
    Independent of the fact you may have happiness problems or not, a focus on growth is seen as bad play, cause such mechanics like policies needed for wonders effectivly denies you the option to get wonders, cause you have a lack of science and culture to unlock them.

    I followed the india playthrough of Minh Le, and he never really focused on growth. Over the most time of the game, his cities had more or less the same size as AI cities. He was able to send more citizens to specialist slots thanks to more efficient farms, but didnt used that additional food to grow his cities larger than other ones. For me that is a difference.
    Wrong. No matter if you have build everything in your city and work only improved tiles, with villages on roads, GPTI and specialists. If you cross a population of lets say 35, nothing will help you to decrease the unhappiness by your cities. Remember, its an exponential modifier. Even if your yield to pop ratio may stay relative constant, an increase from 25 pop to 35 is able to triple your unhappiness in that city.
    Again, no one is talking about stacking 20 farms in one city and only work those.

    This hits the nail. Beginners and mediocre players dont know all the mechanics in the back. How are they able to know? It would be necessary to follow the forum all the time. I dont think its a good thing to use the happiness system as a teaching tool for city management. There are still too many hidden variables in the game, which denies the option to learn from it.
     

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