Defending against AI mega stacks of death?

[JohnMK]

Hi folks,

I'm having a blast with this modpack and I'm finding it more challenging than I'm used to in several different ways (I've been a sandbox player historically so I haven't pushed the envelope and cultivated a challenge). So far I'm figuring it out for myself except for a massive stack of doom Cyrus of India (I'm playing with Unrestricted Leaders) has launched against my main commerce city. I've tried going back to the autosave to try out different techniques and am so far unsuccessful. It's clear I need to have a much larger and more mobile offensive force, for defensive purposes. Not to mention catapults. And so on.

Can someone give me a heads up on how to deal with massive (9 trebs + everything else in proportion) AI stacks of doom in the future, in the most intelligent and efficient manner possible? I can throw units at it obviously but I'd like to do so on the cheap using the proper units and promotions.

What's the collective wisdom here in, say, the late classical/medieval age?

Sincerely,

-John

 

[Lord Tirian]

Can someone give me a heads up on how to deal with massive (9 trebs + everything else in proportion) AI stacks of doom in the future, in the most intelligent and efficient manner possible? I can throw units at it obviously but I'd like to do so on the cheap using the proper units and promotions.

Ah, the joys of seeing the BetterAI module in action... I remember when I used it the first time!

The most useful thing I've found (as a start, among other things like keeping a better military, better specialisation of my cities etc.) was ramping up the number of knights (or mounted units in general) compared to what I've done before, going for the flanking promo. Mounted units are fast and in conjunction with your road network, they allow fast and mobile defence within your own borders.

Flanking also means you're damaging the siege units when you attack the stack, even if another unit is defending. Together with your own siege weapons as defense (to incur collateral damage on the whole stack), you can wear down the offensive capabilities of the attack stack much faster than it can get through your defence.

At least that's what worked well for me - especially the mobility aspect, as it means I only need enough units in a city to hold avoid one-round takes (but thanks to cultural defence, that's rather easy).

Finally, don't forget that having at least a single, fast mounted stack also has another advantage: You can switch over to use it as an attack force and by virtue of having them, less wars get declared on you.

Also: Keep some units closer to your border to less trustworthy neighbours - sometimes you can see a stack of doom approaching before it actually attacks you.

Cheers, LT.

 

[Ambassador]

Yes, ancient cavalry and lots of catapults (catapults in this mod are used for field battle, opposed to siege battle where you need battering rams). With the catapults you should weaken the AI force before really seriously attacking it. In fact, if you're looking for efficient counter methods just look at how the AI handles its own stacks in terms of composition. Usually they also often use a massive catapult force (and rams when attacking a city).

BTW, I haven't seen the benefit of flanking in this mod. Whether attacking with early horse archers or with knights, no harm is done to the siege units when I win a fight against an enemy stack. Have I missed something? Or is this advantage only given after cuirassiers are used?

 

[Gresharas]

The worst SoD that I never fought was Shaka's. About 20 trebs, a few cannons, 49 riflemen, 26 horse archers, 20 knights and around 20 grenadiers.

It was a multiplayer game in LAN: me + a friend [team] against several AI [not in team]. Haka managed to become a superpower with supervassals [the other two being us] and was ahead in tech.

He stole us two cities and our border vassal [4 cities] but we stopped him with a LOT of draft [249 turns of unrest in my capital only of draft] and then kick him back with some cannons and infantry. In the end re-conquered our cities and made peace once again. He come back after 20 turns with all his stack re-buld and unpgraded to cavaly-cannons but by then we beelined rairoad and stopped all his units in a bottleneck with 30+ machineguns.



The true enemy of SoD are strong defenders with a lot of first strikes and immune to collateral damage. Immunity is essential. That in mediaval era means longbow + crossbows with drill IV. Also, you might want to lure them in a FORT, not in a city, because siege cannot bombard the fort 25%defence while they can bombard city walls to 0%.

The other way to survive such SoD is to "delay them" by a "russian winter"-like tactic. The AI lacks the ability of defend properly and if you manage to "lose willingly" VERY SPARSE cities then the AI will scatter and lose momentum. Once you force her in defence she become easy to defeat.

Also, keep in mind that the AI attack pretty much like an uman: one or two big SoD but very scarse defences. If you manage to counterattack [by sea, for example] she will "panic" very fast and cripple herself with badly-managed slavery or draft.

 

[phungus420]

I play below my difficulty because I like to win, I friggin hate loosing against a machine, so haven't gone above Emperor yet. I've found the best way to deal with the AI attack stacks (if you are playing a game where you refuse to reload--otherwise Warlords play a major part ) is to have a large field siege based stack ready to defend, with a few flanking cavalry ready to reinforce. The siege can take down the big stack defenders, and the flanking cav can deal with the siege well. By the Middle ages you should always have at least 3 catapults with 4 or so cavalry on reserve defense (plus all the infantry you can muster playing city defense if an AI stack enters). At least on Emperor and below I've found having such reserves can deal with the enemy. I do play a big diplo game as well, I rarely get hit by a stack I am not at least sort of suspecting.

 

[bigfatjonny]

BTW, I haven't seen the benefit of flanking in this mod. Whether attacking with early horse archers or with knights, no harm is done to the siege units when I win a fight against an enemy stack. Have I missed something? Or is this advantage only given after cuirassiers are used?

I have noticed this as well, im not sure flanking is working in my version either.

Phungus, can you check/confirm this? Last night my Horsemen did not cause any flanking damage on rams or catapults.

 

[phungus420]

I just checked 0.9.4b, and the current test build, and flank attacks work normally. Could you be more specific with the Unit you noticed wasn't causing flanking damage?

 

[JohnMK]

In my 0.9.5 game, flanking worked against siege weapons, at least with Knights and their successors.

 

[bigfatjonny]

I checked on 0.9.4b last night. Seems to be OK now, at least with horseman & catapults.

 

[Roland Johansen]

Note that the flanking ability doesn't necessarily cause flanking damage on every attack to every enemy siege unit. First of all the flanker needs to be attacking and needs to survive the attack. After that, every siege unit has a reasonable chance to avoid flanking damage.

So a single instance of a successful attack not causing flanking damage doesn't say a lot. If the enemy stack contains a lot of siege units and the attack is successful, then it's rare that every siege unit manages to escape. But it can of course happen.

You can read more about the mechanics of flanking damage in this excellent post.