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Defensive Pact: Does your ally join or just declare?

Discussion in 'Civ4 - Strategy & Tips' started by Equisilus, Mar 19, 2006.

  1. Equisilus

    Equisilus Unlikely

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    I've often noticed, when having a defensive pact with another civ, that when someone declares war on me and my ally automatically declares war on them, my ally doesn't actually do anything during the war to assist me. In my latest game (as England), I had a defensive pact with Cyrus so when Alexander declared war, Cyrus declared on him. However, not once did I see Cyrus do anything remotely related to helping me out in terms of military (even though he was the most powerful civ on the planet). It was also late game, so everyone had access to moving troops around by various means (land, sea, air, etc).

    Is this normal for the AI or does it depend on map type or relations with other civs?
     
  2. MrCynical

    MrCynical Deity

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    Defensive pacts just ensure an ally declares war, not necessarily that they'll do anything. (how would you make that happen?). They'll generally help as long as they have a border, or are at least on the same continent as your common enemy. If they're on a different continent though they're basically useless, as they very rarely send any troops.

    I haven't noticed relations making that much difference, but if you're playing on an archipelago map then defensive pacts are of minimal value.
     
  3. Crimso

    Crimso ...aaaaaagh!

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    This was a problem in Civ III as well. Sometimes they'll help you, sometimes they won't. A leader like Monty or Alexander is much more likely to start sending troops though, since they're just waiting for an excuse.
     
  4. CornMaster

    CornMaster Romulan Commander Retired Moderator

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    I find that they often send a token force...if they have a military at all. I use them for balance of power calculations, and to improve relations for a permanent alliance.

    I notice that all AI, sends lots of units at me when they have a pact.
     
  5. Equisilus

    Equisilus Unlikely

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    Interesting. If it's true that allies don't assist much if not bordering or on same continent as opponent or yourself, then I'll have to rethink whether making defensive pacts is worthwhile since it can be annoying to other civs.

    Does anyone know if a defensive pact is taken into account by the other civs when determining if they'll declare war (i.e. a pact with a powerful nation is a deterrence to a less powerful civ attacking you)?
     
  6. Moonsinger

    Moonsinger Settler Retired Moderator

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    Unless your ally is strong in military, he doesn't really do anything. The opposite is also true!;) If your ally declares war, you may send over your spare troop, but your national security must come first. If you have no troop to spare, he is out of luck.
     
  7. mucco

    mucco Warlord

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    It can be worthwhile, because the common enemy will at least hold some troops to defend his borders from your ally. There will be less troops fighting in your country, even if your ally doesn't go to war.
     
  8. jerVL/kg

    jerVL/kg Sheep Nuker

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    Of course Cyrus won't help you. He's Cyrus. He's a yellow-bellied coward and a wimp. :lol: Cyrus will amass quite an army, but it's mostly geared towards defense.

    I've never had any civ declare on me, except the time I attacked Asoka and he bribed Mansa Musa to attack me. Mansa sent a raiding party of knights, which were easily dealt with. That was it. Oh, wait -- I completely forgot. Catherine had a pact with Toku & JC when I dropped 20 nukes on her. Both of them emptied the garrisons and came at me. Toku's army in particular was quite impressive. But I nuked 'em. :devil: :ar15:

    I think most civs will send any spare troops that aren't needed for home defense. If they don't *have* any spare troops, they'll start building some. (Watch for the Vasslage/Theocracy switch.) This can take a long time, though. For instance, Egypt never sent a single unit to aid in my war against Kublai -- I had made peace with Kublai, ran a swift campaign against Bismark, then re-attacked Kublai to get rid of one city that was causing culture problems -- only then, centuries later, did Egypt's cavalry show up to smash Kublai's capital. (I'd completely forgotten they were still at war!)

    Frankly I never rely on Defensive Pacts for defense, I only use them to improve diplomatic relations.
     
  9. KinesongPayaso

    KinesongPayaso Warlord

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    they dont automatically attack, but you can talk to them and ask them to "attack --city name--"
    they do, and oh boy do they send a lot of units
    frederick sent more than enough units taht he captured 2 cities while i attacked another

    but then again, you probably knew that.. what do i know.. im just a noob :(
     
  10. Mutineer

    Mutineer Deity

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    Actially it does depends on who your ally is. If it is Alex or Toky then they will send an army. Cyrus? He sit in corner and drink beer.
     
  11. Myxer

    Myxer Chieftain

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    I don't have any facts to back it up, but I have noticed that I don't get attacked as much when I have a defensive pact with another strong Civ. Except when Izzy is involved, she doesn't care. If you're a different religion she'll attack anyone and everyone, crazy chick.
     
  12. automator

    automator King

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    Don't be so sure there. In a recent Prince game, I had Cyrus to my northwest. My continent was like a Y, with Cyrus on the left of the Y, Hapshepsut on the right, and me on the bottom. I was in pretty good with Cyrus, giving him luxury resource tribute. Then he demanded Paper. I refused, and next turn he marched in with a handful of War Elephants and took three cities.

    I bribed Hatty into the war, but she never sent any troops (I would have seen them cross my territory if she had), even when I gave her a bunch of war-related techs, and iron.

    But now that I know there's an "Attack _____" diplo option, things might change.
     
  13. Equisilus

    Equisilus Unlikely

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    Yeah, I picked Cyrus in the game I mentioned above because in a previous game he literally rolled dozens of stacks of modern armour through Montezuma and I figured if he'd do that, and he was leading in my game, he'd be a force to be reckoned with. Not so. Ah well, no matter, that game ended with a Space Race victory for China while I was still only the fourth worst civ (score-wise) out of 18, with only one (France) having been wiped out.

    No matter, I'll just not depend on the Defensive Pact for defence against anyone and use it more as a back up.

    Note, I didn't have any options to ask Cyrus to attack a particular city of Alexander. Not sure why, but do you need to have recon'd the territory you want him to attack first?
     
  14. Aegis

    Aegis Deity

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    The option to ask the AI to attack a particular city is in the same section of the diplomacy window as asking them how they feel about the other AI's. I believe it was titled "Let's talk about something else..." right when you contact the leader.
     
  15. Equisilus

    Equisilus Unlikely

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    Ah, that's perhaps it. Maybe I didn't check the right area. I rarely use the option, although I've tried in the past to no effect when allied with France against America.

    As you can imagine, I'm not much for military tactics. ;)
     
  16. The Tyrant

    The Tyrant Prince

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    I've never really noticed much of an effort when I've had a DP and been attacked, but the AI does sometimes take them very seriously.

    I clearly remember one SP game where Mansa and Gandhi had a DP. Mansa had eleven cities and was building spaceship components before I had even discovered flight (part of this could be because I had long been building a huge invasion force to invade their continent with). After positioning the transports I launched a sneak attack on Mansa, taking seven coastal cities in one turn. I also attacked an eighth city by land, attacking from a third party territory where I had open borders. I basically gutted Mansa in one turn. I knew he had a DP with Gandhi, and their nations bordered each other, but so what.

    Gandhi surprised me. He let go on me with everything he had. It didn't help my situation that the black spaghetti had been replaced with railroads everywhere. Gandhi was an absolute terror for the next three turns. I couldn't believe how seriously he took that Defensive Pact. Thank goodness I had brought enough units in case I suffered serious losses (in overkill I trust) because I did. I eventually ended up winning a domination victory the round after taking Gandhi's last city, but that was much more of a fight than I expected.

    The odd thing was that Gandhi was "Pleased" with me the whole time he was pounding on me. :)
     
  17. jerVL/kg

    jerVL/kg Sheep Nuker

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    I think the problem with Hatty is that she doesn't bother to maintain a standing army for invasion. When war is declared, only then does she start building troops, and by the time she's done, the war is over.

    She did send out one hell of a counterattack when Napoleon attacked her, in a recent game on Prince. She had just finished up a protracted war vs. Kublai Khan, so I assume her forces were already built and ready to go. It just so happened, that I had about 20 transports of troops ready to invade Napoleon in 2 turns...so we marched to war together. It was cool man. She had more submarines in the water than anyone could count! (Nappy only had frigates.)

    That's weird about Cyrus, though. He never once squeaked at me during my Ice Age game as America, despite having a military tech lead the whole game. I refused all his demands for tribute (including one for 30 gold, lol) and even demanded tribute from him a few times -- sometimes, he'd actually say yes! :lol:
     
  18. Ovidian

    Ovidian Chieftain

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    The one interesting aspect of the Defensive Pact that I just recently learned is that the time that you have invested in it doesn't matter in the least.

    I was playing Rome with the continents map and had three other Civ's on my continent. I had wiped out Monty so I had Saladin to my north and had Tokugawa to my south. Like always, Tokugawa hated me...so, he had to go.

    At this point in the game, Saladin was my buddy. We had traded resources and techs for years and had a Defensive Pact for a long while, at least 75 years if not more.

    I had my troops and navy in place against Tokugawa and was one turn away from striking. Right then Tokugawa signs a Defensive Pact with Saladin. I mean...seriously...the turn before I go to war with him. Nice...anyway...

    I'm thinking Saladin has my back. He'll understand. He's a good guy. I have dinner at his place every other week. Our kids have play-dates. We play on the same softball team, I mean, come on.

    I declare war on Tokugawa and Saladin sends in troops. Nothing hardcore, but enough to get my attention. OK, lesson learned...

    I took out Tokugawa fairly quickly, I had a good lead in Tech so he didn't stand in my way. Then...Saladin got his. MUCH sooner than I wanted to, but such betrayal must be dealt with.

    Overall, I must admit I was disappointed. Yes, it makes sense game-wise because I did attack Toku so Saladin was honoring the agreement. Yet, in reality, he would have never attacked me. Our ties would have been too strong. I just wish the game would take the time invested in a political relationship as a significant factor.
     
  19. warpus

    warpus In pork I trust

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    ^^ It matters a lot more how long you've been allies in a war. The longer you fight the same civ, the higher the + modifier goes.
     
  20. Mutineer

    Mutineer Deity

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    You was attacked because defence pact automatically cancel if you declare on anyone, and he had defence pack with you wictam. So, he had to declare you.
     

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