Deity 4 cities vs. NC

[Nilaus]

First post, but avid reader.

Immortal is becoming routing, but Deity is more than just a small step up.
I am a bit in doubt about my focus initially:
1. Should I focus on grabbing some prime real estate and geting my 4 Tradition cities planted ?
2. Should I go for fewer cities and a faster NC and then hope there are some spots left for the fourth city ?

I feel that these priorities are mutually exclusive as due to the requirements of Library in the fourth city as well.
I gravitate to the 4 city placement, but I have a nagging feeling this is not correct. Usually my 2nd and 3rd city are placed almost simultaneously (1 Settler built at Capital pop 4 and 1 purchased)

 

[Ninakoru]

Still not many games in Deity, but from my experience:

I would skip the settler built on capital, and instead buy the library on the second city, so you can do a quick NC with two cities.

You have to focus HARD on growth and tech in order to catch up the AI anytime soon. Fast NC is not that important. If you can easily place and grow 4 cities due to luxuries and good placements, delay NC to later.

 

[Resipsa]

If you do drop 4 cities by around t60 you need to defend with CBs and try and get your libraries up by t95 or so I find this difficult because you're almost in a constant state of war due to dropping 4 cities so quickly. But if you can do this you can get NC around t100. If you can manage this you can win. But you still have runaway civs

 

[Light Cleric]

I usually have much more luck going 2-3 cities and then taking someone else's cities instead as my 3rd/4th/5th.

The issue is that whatever gold you spend on a Settler or Library is gold you didn't spend on an Archer, CB upgrades, or Walls. You end up with more land to defend with less units to do so. Unless I have a very Mining-lux heavy start(because they're extremely fast to get running) then I simply find it too finanically taxing to defend four cities, get my Libraries up in them, and, as Respisa said, basically being forced to go Construction to defend yourself(unless your Babylon, lol Bowmen). If I have something like a Jungle start I'm not even going to try.

Plus finding a good location for the 4th city is a huge pain in the ass on Deity because of how the AI just gobbles up land so aggressively and how willing it is to attack. It has to be a hell of a city to justify it and even then it's questionable. Like in one of MadDjinn's BtMs where he was Persia, he went and settled what looked like a great city post-NC but it overextended him and he got his butt handed to him by a CS and Spain on his other flank and lost 2 cities

 

[Justice1337]

I think that when you delay Philo and NC on Diety, you absoultely must have a decisive, space-gaining military victory pre T100.

All of the guides I have seen on Tradition 4-cities openers advise a Composite Bow rush. I've had some good openers with Mohawk Warrior rushes w/ Iroquois, but not with any other Civ due to the chanciness of Iron resources. Other than that, military comes too late. And even prioritizing Military, I would say that any later than T100 on the NC will result in an eventual loss on Diety, unless you're the Maya.


It also depends on the Map settings, and the particular topography. The key thing to look at is your opportunity to preserve space without provoking war. On Island maps for example, it makes little sense to colonize a third city before NC because no one is encroaching on your island. Likewise with chokes on Continents/etc. If your Capital and 2nd city can be placed in such a way that the AI will need Compass to access your 3d and 4th city site, it makes sense to put them off and build the NC pre-T60.

Which is why I suppose I see so much Tradition 4-cities, because Pangea is such a popular map choice. Space is something you really won't have on Pangea unless you get it early. Just make sure to beat face with those CB's, puppet your conquest cities, and look for your NC around T100. Even doing this, you will still need to prioritize Civil Service and Education, as well as stocking the Capital's University with Scientists as soon as it's up in order for you to get the Academy.

Of course, particular Civs like Babylon, Maya, etc, allow you to take shortcuts in certain places. Particularly Babylon is great for Tradition 4-cities into Sword rush.

 

[BrokTheFanatic]

I think that when you delay Philo and NC on Diety, you absoultely must have a decisive, space-gaining military victory pre T100.

All of the guides I have seen on Tradition 4-cities openers advise a Composite Bow rush. I've had some good openers with Mohawk Warrior rushes w/ Iroquois, but not with any other Civ due to the chanciness of Iron resources. Other than that, military comes too late. And even prioritizing Military, I would say that any later than T100 on the NC will result in an eventual loss on Diety, unless you're the Maya.


It also depends on the Map settings, and the particular topography. The key thing to look at is your opportunity to preserve space without provoking war. On Island maps for example, it makes little sense to colonize a third city before NC because no one is encroaching on your island. Likewise with chokes on Continents/etc. If your Capital and 2nd city can be placed in such a way that the AI will need Compass to access your 3d and 4th city site, it makes sense to put them off and build the NC pre-T60.

Which is why I suppose I see so much Tradition 4-cities, because Pangea is such a popular map choice. Space is something you really won't have on Pangea unless you get it early. Just make sure to beat face with those CB's, puppet your conquest cities, and look for your NC around T100. Even doing this, you will still need to prioritize Civil Service and Education, as well as stocking the Capital's University with Scientists as soon as it's up in order for you to get the Academy.

Of course, particular Civs like Babylon, Maya, etc, allow you to take shortcuts in certain places. Particularly Babylon is great for Tradition 4-cities into Sword rush.

This.

Your civ and the map/terrain matter on how to approach when to get the NC up.

=> I can recall a match where I had some space, ok lux/resources and 2 good choke points. I placed 6 cities as my weaker units held the choke points as I built and bought libraries and pyramids (was using maya/pacal, he is more a lib type civ, I used the free GE to build the NC <not sure best choice> then placed 3 more cities). I was behind on tech but focused towards astronomy as my weaker units (now with 2 citadels) kept the enemy at bay. I then pumped out caravels and went off to find weak enemy ports to take, of which I got 2. Now late in the match I went after port CSs to grow my empire. Alas, Germany was on a steamroll and had consumed 3 AIs and I just couldn't catch up enough, was just too big for me to keep him from a space race victory. Was a fun match though. I don't play diety a ton, mostly immortal, but I do try different approaches, it hurts but when it works it is really great.

 

[The Pilgrim]

I think that when you delay Philo and NC on Diety, you absoultely must have a decisive, space-gaining military victory pre T100

I agree with this. Heavy and successful warring is most often the reason for NC delay. If you stay on defense, you should try to get NC up and running asap, while conquest gives some breathing space. However, on deity these are not necessarily mutually exclusive, since you're very likely to receive a DoW from close neighbor or three and eventually counterattack and grab some puppets without delaying the NC too much.

In my opinion, a sufficient army comes first, how many cities you can afford along with it is situational. When there are good spots and you have enough cash and production to churn out a decent bunch of archers soon to be CB's, settling more cities is worth it. But I see no point in settling a worthless 4th or even 3rd cities just for the sake of having them. If there are no good spots left, offense is the way to go. There is also no point in having additional cities you can't protect, so... army comes first.

 

[Nilaus]

Thanks everyone. I've been weighing the pros and cons of each priority. I have tried a 3 city start and I got the NC by t80 and it felt better, but then I forgot to look for possible puppeted states ti annex until it was too late.
I'm aiming for 3 homegrown cities + 2-3 annexed cities (mainly capitals); depending on map conditions ofc.

 

[Catan_Settler]

Yeah, if you're playing aggressively I really don't see putting a focus on building 4 native cities really being all that important. In fact, I've beat deity pangaea with a huns rush and only my capital. If you can start knocking down enemy cities, do it, cause the net benefit is moreso than building your own. Not only are you getting another city for your economy, you're taking one of the enemy's away. That's like 2 cities (+1 for you, -1 for them) for the price of some troops. And those troops will keep on taking cities for you.

 

[Deau]

I think that when you delay Philo and NC on Diety, you absoultely must have a decisive, space-gaining military victory pre T100.

All of the guides I have seen on Tradition 4-cities openers advise a Composite Bow rush. I've had some good openers with Mohawk Warrior rushes w/ Iroquois, but not with any other Civ due to the chanciness of Iron resources. Other than that, military comes too late. And even prioritizing Military, I would say that any later than T100 on the NC will result in an eventual loss on Diety, unless you're the Maya.


It also depends on the Map settings, and the particular topography. The key thing to look at is your opportunity to preserve space without provoking war. On Island maps for example, it makes little sense to colonize a third city before NC because no one is encroaching on your island. Likewise with chokes on Continents/etc. If your Capital and 2nd city can be placed in such a way that the AI will need Compass to access your 3d and 4th city site, it makes sense to put them off and build the NC pre-T60.

Which is why I suppose I see so much Tradition 4-cities, because Pangea is such a popular map choice. Space is something you really won't have on Pangea unless you get it early. Just make sure to beat face with those CB's, puppet your conquest cities, and look for your NC around T100. Even doing this, you will still need to prioritize Civil Service and Education, as well as stocking the Capital's University with Scientists as soon as it's up in order for you to get the Academy.

Of course, particular Civs like Babylon, Maya, etc, allow you to take shortcuts in certain places. Particularly Babylon is great for Tradition 4-cities into Sword rush.

This.

I often play 2 city trad because I went for "too early NC" and had extremely aggressive REXer neighbors. All you need is solid gold income (so probably 6+ luxuries and both cities minimally riverside) as well as an observatory capital (or 3 cities).

Just spam 2 waves of RAs in the early 100s and 140 ish. Get to bombers by turn 170-190 with a capital with Brandenburg gate and take a city per 3 turns for up until T200-220. Figure out if domination is viable or just turn back to SV.

I know it may appear overly optimistic but I've been able to break a huge runaway to pieces with a fairly weak 2 city empire quite a few times just reviewing my science plans to do a bomber rush. It is still obviously best with 3-4 cities(or more even) but not impossible to recover.