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Deity Always War OCC

Discussion in 'Civ4 - Strategy & Tips' started by dualdoc, Dec 12, 2007.

  1. dualdoc

    dualdoc Chieftain

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    I was recently trying to think of the hardest game settings possible for a real challenge. I came up with the following:

    game_settings.JPG

    This is in BTS. You are Hannibal of Japan. There are the standard 6 AIs, all aggressive (Boudica, Genghis, Hammurabi, Montezuma, Shaka, and Tokogawa), with random civs. Since there is just one continent, they will all attack you with huge SODs throughout the game.

    The challenge is to win by conquest (space would be too easy). The AIs are allowed to win by any method.

    Is this impossible? With a random map, absolutely. Your city will get pillaged relentlessly and there is nothing you can do about it. To make it sporting, I borrowed an idea from the Age of Ice scenario. There is a mountain wall isolating you in a small protected valley in the NE corner of the map. There is a single pass through the mountain. Hold the pass and you can develop in peace. Lose the pass and you effectively lose the game.

    You also start will a super city location with 11 resources plus 10 flood plains. That may sound like it would make the game too easy, but you will need it against the dieties. The valley has copper, iron, horses, elephants, coal, oil, and aluminum so you will be able to build any non-nuclear unit.

    start.JPG

    I've played through the game and won by conquest in 1846, but I nearly lost at several stages. I had to develop some extremely unusual strategies to cope with the remarkable challenge of the setup: super city vs. relentless hordes.

    I recommend trying this game for anyone looking for a serious and unusual challenge.

    I'll post how I played through the game. I employed some highly unconventional tactics that should be of interest to people.

    The initial save game:

    View attachment mwilliam BC-4000.CivBeyondSwordSave
     
  2. Jet

    Jet No, no, please. Please.

    Joined:
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    Good scenario! It's a lot of fun so far.
     
  3. dualdoc

    dualdoc Chieftain

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    The first thing that I need is a plan to reach a point where I can steamroll the AIs, despite their troop hordes. I decide that I need speed and strength (and city raider) to quickly tackle the enemy without excess attrition (since I can only build 1 replacement unit each turn). My choice for this is mechanized infantry. I can get city raider by upgrading from samurai. The mech inf is the best speed conquest unit due to 2 moves and march. Upgrading from samurai will give me a free drill 1 as well, which is useful. My entire development plan is based on building a large number of high experience samurai and upgrading them once I get robotics. I'll turtle until then, and go on a rampage after I have my mechs.

    My tech plan involves three key targets, with beelines for all of them:

    1) Civil service (from the Oracle) for Bureaucracy, which is huge in OCC. Of course, getting the Oracle for such a late tech is normally impossible in Deity. But I have the use of an exceptional commerce city and the AIs are all aggressive. Hammurabi is the only fast techer / strong builder in the bunch. With perfect choreography, it is just doable.

    2) Biology (from Liberalism) for the National Park. If the first slingshot works, this one is a piece of cake. The National Park is crucial, especially given the 10 flood plains (-4 health). Growth will skyrocket once it is built.

    3) Robotics followed by Rifling. The order is essential to ensure that I can build samurai right up to the end.

    After Rifling, I plan to stop researching. It would take too long to get Modern Armor or Mobile Artillery, the only potentially useful units. By then, the conquest should be essentially done.

    With that in mind, I settle on the stone hill. I start a worker and research hunting followed by mining to give him something to do. I send the warrior through the mountain pass to the SW to grab nearby huts. The huts in my valley can wait until later.

    Turn 4 (3900 BC): Pop a hut for 30 gold
    Turn 8 (3800 BC): Pop a hut for 50 gold
    Turn 12 (3700 BC): Meet Shaka of Viking and declare war (automatically). What a great guy to have next door. He'll throw far more units at me over the course of the game than anyone else.
    Turn 13 (3675 BC): Worker finishes and moves to the deer. I build a scout next to grab the huts in my valley. The warrior pops his last hut for 40 gold and moves back to the pass to guard it.
    Turn 19 (3525 BC): Scout finishes. Start on barracks.
    Turn 20 (3500 BC): Pop a hut for 44 gold.
    Turn 21 (3475 BC): Meet Boudica of Spain and declare war.
    Turn 23 (3425 BC): Finish Mining and start Agriculture (followed by Pottery). Pop Bronze Working from a hut. This is a ridiculous stroke of luck. It might be the key to winning the Oracle race and ultimately the game. I'm not sure. I estimate it got me to Code of Laws 7 turns earlier, which is when I built the Oracle.

    bw_hut.jpg

    Turn 24 (3400 BC): Meet Genghis of Rome. Pop a scout from a hut (well they can't all be good).
    Turn 26 (3350 BC): Pop Iron Working from a hut. This seems good, but the nearest iron requires 2 border pops to get. It will save me significant beakers later, but it won't help me in the near term, like BW did.
    Turn 27 (3325 BC): Meet Hammurabi of Inca. He's actually my closest neighbor to the south, but he obviously sent his original scout the other way. This guy is the biggest threat in the game. He will tech like a fiend later on and build a lot of wonders. He's got the Buddhist holy city to help his tech rate.
    Turn 29 (3275 BC): Reach pop 3. Switch from the incomplete barracks to a 2nd and then 3rd worker.
    Turn 31 (3225 BC): The second good luck event of the game. I get a random event (Herbalists find a treatment) that gives me +2 health for the game at a price of temporary -2 happiness. This will prove useful to the end (even after the National Park is built).
    Turn 33 (3175 BC): Meet Tokogawa of Carthage.
    Turn 37 (3075 BC): Meet Montezuma of Native America.
    Turn 41 (2975 BC): Last worker is built. Switch back to barracks.
    Turn 42 (2950 BC): Pottery in. Start Writing.
    Turn 44 (2900 BC): Barracks in. Start granary.
    Turn 46 (2850 BC): The third and final stroke of luck. I get the axe-handles event for free shock on my axes (of which I currently have none).
    Turn 51 (2725 BC): The copper is finally mined so I start an axeman,
    Turn 54 (2650 BC): Writing in. Start Mysticism followed by Masonry. Halt axeman to build a library.
    Turn 60 (2500 BC): Library built so I finish the axe, followed by a monument.
    Turn 63 (2425 BC): Masonry in so start Mathematics.

    This brings me to a key junction. I have stone (under my city) so I can build the Great Wall or the Pyramids. Obviously, Representation will be really useful. And of course this is a no-barb game, so the choice is obvious. I build the Great Wall. My reason is that if I don't get it now, I never will. The AIs love to build the thing. It is completely useless at the moment, but it will be priceless later on.

    The reason is defense. I will eventually face huge SODs, often several at once. I need a strong defensive presence in my pass. This can be achieved through quantity or quality. I can build a lot of units to absorb the massive attacks, but that will put a burden on the city's build queue. Also, this is a deity OCC, so unit support costs are high. My preference is to use quality. A small number (four) of super defenders that can absorb a lot of attacks without taking damage. This will require a large number of first strikes (more on that later) and warlords. I need four great generals quick, and the Great Wall will help with that. Further GGs will be valuable settled in the city to give me high experience units when it is time for the offensive. In fact, I will ultimately get 21 GGs in the game, thanks to the Great Wall.

    Turn 73 (2175 BC): Great Wall finished. Build a 2nd axeman followed by the Pyramids.
    Turn 74 (2150 BC): Mathematics in. Start Meditation, then Priesthood, then Code of Laws.
    Turn 85 (1875 BC): Pyramids finished. Start aqueduct and revolt to Representation.

    pyramids.jpg

    Note Shaka's stack. It has been peaceful so far, but that won't last. Nonetheless, even two axeman can stop this stack, given their location.

    After I come out of the revolt, the city looks like this:

    post_repr.jpg

    In three turns, I can start running scientists. The Great Wall gives me a good chance of spawning a Great Spy (bad) but hopefully by running scientists I can avoid that. Note that even with 10 pop, I have a lot of happiness cap left, thanks to Charismatic and Representation. Health is less sanguine, and it will become a severe problem shortly.

    Turn 90 (1750 BC): Switch from incomplete aqueduct to the Oracle, timed to finish at just the right moment.
    Turn 93 (1675 BC): Code of Laws in. Oracle finished. Pick Civil Service and revolt to Bureaucracy. Start on Metal Casting.

    oracle.JPG

    Shaka's about to hit me with a large stack. But the beauty of the pass is the huge defensive bonus (+75% +25% for river crossing +20% for Woody I). Amazingly, Shaka will actually wait to reinforce before going after my two axemen.

    Here is the save game at this point.

    View attachment mwilliam BC-1675.CivBeyondSwordSave
     
  4. PJyang

    PJyang Chieftain

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    Very nice scenario indeed!:goodjob:
     
  5. fuzzynutz

    fuzzynutz Chieftain

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    Cool man! I would never dare try but you my friend, brass balls, brass balls.
     
  6. Killroyan

    Killroyan Deity

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    Just 2 axemen defending and you are building an aquaduct? Hehe nice. How many axes are defending you capital? Nice scenario. Looks a lot like the druids hideout. Great succession game which you should check out also.
     
  7. CivSetä

    CivSetä Warlord

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    Interesting scenario!
     
  8. futurehermit

    futurehermit Deity

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    Very interesting. But no barbs and epic speed? Epic speed ok because a number of people play with it on these forums (although I think it gives an edge to the human player vs. trying to play on normal). But no barbs seems to take a lot of the challenge out of the earlier game. Of course the other settings (especially deity) introduce a lot of challenge, but I was surprised to see no barbs when the goal is a tough challenge.
     
  9. oyzar

    oyzar Have quit civ/forums

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    How will barbs matter? I think the point is to do always war diety and win i think. No barbs wouldn't matter much as they would be blocked by the pass anyways...
     
  10. dualdoc

    dualdoc Chieftain

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    Thanks for everyone's replies. I'm glad people find this setup as interesting as I did.

    A couple of responses:

    1) I probably was too blase at this stage regarding defense, while I focused on city development. I fixed that in the following several turns. In any event, it is true that Woody Shock axes can absorb a lot of attacks on that forested hill. I'll lose neither axe when Shaka finally attacks. That said, I might have been lucky.

    2) The no-barb setting was chosen because I think it does make it slightly harder. Given the mountain wall, barbs can only get you by spawning in the small corners of the valley that are easily fog busted (I had two early scouts and a redundant warrior that I deleted, which could have done the job) or by going through the pass. Unlike the AIs, the barbs are stupid enough to attacks at hopeless odds one unit at a time. Barbs = free experience = quick Woody 3 for my axes = easier time when the AIs come.
     
  11. oyzar

    oyzar Have quit civ/forums

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    Um for some reason shaka only attack with the archers... which makes no sense whatsoever given that he have half a dozen shock axes which should easily have taken down your axes..
     
  12. weltenbrand

    weltenbrand Chieftain

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    Lot of fun! Thank you!

    Best result so far is turn 225 :lol:
    17 trebuchets, and 6 cats were to much. Not to mention the around 70 units that followed....

    4 axes, eh? :D
     
  13. futurehermit

    futurehermit Deity

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    yeah, the pass limits the impact of barbs, it's true.
     
  14. oyzar

    oyzar Have quit civ/forums

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    CG3drill4woodsman3guirrilla2 longbows should be pretty good at holding that if you add a fort(though might want to forgo the cg and the fort to protect against trebutches(you get +75% but they get to use city raider...).
     
  15. ThERat

    ThERat Deity

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    Question: does the AI actually attack the choke? There were issues during the vaniall day AW games, that the AI would simply not attack choke points and then just amass units. Made AW a little of a joke.
     
  16. dualdoc

    dualdoc Chieftain

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    1650 BC to 275 BC, 62 turns

    My city after the revolt to Bureaucracy:

    post_bur.JPG

    As noted above, I've been lulled by the peace so far and haven't built enough units for complete security. I decide to finish the aqueduct, then build two more axemen. That will end my unit construction for a very long time. The four axes will have to hold until the modern era (with upgrades, of course).

    While building reinforcements, Shaka attacks the pass. My axes survive and promote to Woody 3. This is a huge benefit. The key to fighting hordes is to avoid damage. You have lopsided odds in each fight. The only way to lose is through gradual attrition. The 2 first strikes from Woody 3 greatly improve the odds of taking no damage. The 15% heal helps as well. I'll need a lot more than 2 FS to absorb 100+ unit stacks, but I've got plans for that.

    The axes are followed by a Confucian monastery (I founded the religion but didn't adopt it) and the Hanging Gardens.

    Turn 102 (1450 BC): Great scientist (yes!) founds an academy. An engineer would have been OK, but a spy would have been disappointing. The Great Wall hasn't cost me yet (but I will eventually get one).
    Turn 104 (1400 BC): Metal casting in. Start Polytheism, Aesthetics, then Literature. Halt the Gardens to build a forge (+3 happy).
    Turn 111 (1225 BC): Literature in. Halt the Gardens again for the Great Library. Start researching Music. Music? I want the Great Artist. I need the culture to reach legendary status so I control not just my side of the pass but the AIs' side. I'll need to break out later and will have to clear out a lot of units there. If I own the space, I'll get the GW benefit and avoid WW. I'll also control the road that Shaka built there. In any case, the gold and beakers will also be useful. And I'll need Music eventually for cathedrals, for both happiness (my valley has incense) and culture.

    Now that I've researched Literature, I have access to my first 2 national wonders. So, I need to think about which 5 I want to build. There are three no-brainer choices:

    1) National Epic
    2) National Park
    3) Oxford University

    There are four plausible choices for the other two slots:

    a) Globe Theater
    b) Heroic Epic
    c) Ironworks
    d) Wall Street

    I'm sure most people would take Globe and IW. That is a solid choice, but I need to consider my ultimate strategy. I am planning to build a lot of samurai and upgrading them to mech infantry. That will cost 30-40K. That is a lot of money, which I'll need to raise somehow. Wall Street is obvious for cash generation, but I don't want to hurt my research by cutting the slider, which is needed to get full value from WS.

    I have a different plan. The Heroic Epic will not speed up unit production, since I will be able to build any unit in 1 turn anyway. But the excess production won't go to waste. It converts to cash, on a basis of 1 hammer (after applying production modifiers) to 1 gold. The Heroic Epic will be a huge money generator when I start pumping out units. I can build units and generate the cash to pay for upgrades at the same time! Ultimately, it is more lucrative than WS.

    The Ironworks can raise cash in the same way, but it will also help build structures and wonders faster. Of course, it will only be good for +50% due to the National Park, and it will pollute, so I'll need to build more health structures, but it is still very good.

    The Globe would make for a simpler game without the headache of worrying about happiness, but ultimately it is just a convenience, not a necessity. I can generate a lot of happiness in a lot of ways, so it will never be a serious problem. Besides, the Globe seems a slap in the face of Charismatic. And Globe in OCC is so conventional. It might be the best choice (I'm not sure), but it isn't clearly better than the others.

    Thus, my choices are

    4) Heroic Epic
    5) Ironworks

    Turn 119 (1025 BC): Hanging Gardens is finally done (after stopping it twice to build other stuff). It bumps Kyoto to 17 pop. Start on the National Epic. Music in. Settle Great Artist. Research Monotheism followed by Theology.

    hanging_gardens.JPG

    This shows the current strength of Kyoto. In addition, you can see that my workers are roading toward the iron. I'll need it soon for sams. You can also see the fort I've built in the pass to add to its defense.

    Turn 122 (950 BC): Great scientist, settled.
    Turn 124 (900 BC): National epic done. Start Shwedagon Paya. It is cheap since I have gold, and I really want Free Religion.
    Turn 129 (775 BC): Theology in. Found Christianity (which was the point). Start Paper, followed by Eduction. Maybe I should have done machinery here, to get the sams. Especially given that I just got hit with a big assault that earned me a Great General (Geronimo). I use him to make a warlord from my least experienced axeman. I want to keep the experience as even as possible for the units. This will be tough since the strongest unit always defends first, and gets the lion's share of experience. Naturally, I give Geronimo leadership since he'll be getting a lot of experience over the course of the game.
    Turn 131 (725 BC): Shwedagon Paya in. Revolt to Free Religion and Caste System. Start on a Christian monastery, followed by two temples.
    Turn 134 (650 BC): Great scientist, settled.
    Turn 139 (525 BC): Start on Statue of Zeus for lack of useful alternatives. This is purely for $. I'll stop it one turn from completion.
    Turn 144 (440 BC): Great scientist, settled.
    Turn 145 (425 BC): Eduction in. Start Philosophy. Build university.
    Turn 149 (350 BC): University done. Start Oxford.
    Turn 150 (325 BC): Philosophy in. Found Taoism. Start Machinery (finally).
    Turn 154 (290 BC): Machinery in. Samurai available. Research Alphabet, followed by Currency and Printing Press.
    Turn 155 (275 BC): Oxford complete. Start Taoist monastery.

    oxford.JPG

    This is the state of the city. 547 beakers is pretty good for 275 BC.

    geronimo.jpg

    This shows Geronimo, who has earned a lot of experience. I can upgrade him to samurai whenever I want. Given the huge Roman stack advancing on me, that will be immediately.

    Here is the save game at this point:

    View attachment mwilliam BC-0275.CivBeyondSwordSave
     
  17. Quornix

    Quornix Warlord

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    Why would you not want the Statue of Zeus? I know that WW is reduced by both difficulty level and the Always War setting, but as long as it isn't zero, doubling it can do some damage. The entire plan for most of the game is that your enemies throw massive stacks against a heavily fortified location within your cultural borders. That's the sort of situation that just cries for the Statue.
     
  18. Welnic

    Welnic Emperor

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    I don't think that the no barbs has much affect on this map. I usually play with epic speed in OCC even on small maps since once your city is firing on all cylinders you can make a unit a turn, and with epic that means that you can make 1.5 more units.
     
  19. Jet

    Jet No, no, please. Please.

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    Yes, in this scenario the AI will attack the chokepoint. I'm not sure about the current AI behavior in general.
     
  20. Turinturambar

    Turinturambar Prince

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    The scenario is lots of fun, but I don´t think I can stomach the "wack a mole minigame" to the end. It´s almost 1800 AD, I just got to modern armor, two enemies are already dead and the others get their cities razed and razed and razed.

    But this guy is a lot of fun (image of my unit with the most xp) ;) :
    Spoiler :


     

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