[R&F] Deity Beginner - is this a playable start?

[cusp]

Hi all,

I've been playing Civ6 for some time now, and can consistently win on ~Emperor and below. I've decided to take the jump to Deity with the plan of playing the same map repeatedly until I get the hang of the opening.

I've attached the map (ignore everything other than the map itself, I've just been exploring to reveal it) and a turn1 save file. I am boxed in to my NE and SE by France and Scotland, respectively, but I do have some room to expand into the NW. However, it looks like a fragile territory and will have borders with 4 civs (on a small map), which sounds like an accident waiting to happen. Also Scotland and the Mapuche both just have huge room to expand into, so even if I squeeze something out, I don't see how I can keep up with them peacefully.

So far, I've unsuccessfully tried the following strategies:
1- Early rush on Scotland (tried both t30-40 warrior rush and t40-50 warrior + archer rush). I was able to take 1-2 cities, but can't hold them because they culture flip almost immediately so this feels like a fairly low ROI approach given how much I have to sacrifice in infra development to try to rush. Also the layout of Scotland is a bit hard to rush because their cities have lake tiles, so I can't get the siege bonus.
2- Push into the land between Scotland and me with 4-5 cities and then try a Swordsman + Cata + Archer war. This runs into similar problems as (1). In fact, it was even worse, because I went into a Dark Age, and didn't have the loyalty to hold even my own cities.
3- Build out to 8-9 cities, rush to Cavalry, then attack Scotland. I built something like 20-30 horsemen that I mass-upgraded to cavalry, and had a significant military advantage, but my Cavalry got decimated trying to storm his cities (I brought siege towers as support and nothing else), and I had the same culture flip issues.

tl;dr: I don't know how to approach this start and was hoping for advice from more seasoned players. Any good strategy that you'd recommend for me to try here? Should I maybe roll again, or look for a better map online, instead? Any general advice?

 

[Noble Zarkon]

Cavalry got decimated trying to storm his cities (I brought siege towers as support and nothing

Siege towers only work for melee not cavalry as far as I understand it.

 

[yung.carl.jung]

Warrior rushes are pretty hard nowadays and not always worth. With your start I would probably rush 2 cities early (hardbuild settler as 2nd or 3rd build, try very hard to get an early settler pantheon) to establish borders and send an envoy to the AI/give them gifts in order to get an early friendship on at least 1 or 2. otherwise you'll never really be safe. pick out one (I'd choose scotland) and try to take them out after you've established borders and settled one or two additional cities. This game isn't that great for ancestral hall settler spam because there's little space with neighbors so close. I'd maintain decent military score and start spamming units out t50-70 to hopefully upgrade quickly into knights and xbows. I'd probably try to take out both scots and france clean, settle a few more for a total of 12-15 and then just peacemonger until you win culture/diplo/science.

Siege towers only work for melee not cavalry as far as I understand it.

yes, that was nerfed. unsure if that was GS or RF though.

 

[DrCron]

Early rushes with low loyalty are always a pain, but not completely undoable. You can retake the city the same turn it becomes a free city, if you surround it with your units one turn before it flips. It's a bit of a grind, but as I said, not undoable (I dealt with it during my conquest of Phoenicia in this game, if you need a reference).

That being said, you have more land, so it's not your only option. You can expand northwest to get a total of 3 cities. Try to get era points by killing barbs, and leave some ranged defense in your capital. When Scotland attacks, destroy their offensive (this should be easy since the AI has no idea how to play 1upt) and get some money in the peace treaty. Use the money for monuments so you get some extra culture. Build a strong army, and launch a huge attack after the 10 turn peace treaty (Scotland probably won't have rebuilt enough units to defend properly yet). Don't use catapults, they suck. Against walls go with battering rams instead. If your attack is fast enough, and you have enough cultural pressure, conquered cities won't flip SO fast. Anyway, you'll probably have to conquer all of Scotland to be on the safe side.

 

[enKage]

I would say not the best map for first diety. Mapuche and Scotland means no scientists.
Scotland is easy to befriend and will get Xbows earlier than others, do rather make friendship. France is obvious friend, you dont want another bonus strenght to fight against. Also not do hard to befriend. The most obvious target for a rush is Saladin, I would expect him to be the weakest early stage. Renember to try joined war, invite Cree and Mapuche, so to make them friends too. Alternatively go for Apadana wonder spam.

 

[yung.carl.jung]

I would say not the best map for first diety. Mapuche and Scotland means no scientists.
Scotland is easy to befriend and will get Xbows earlier than others, do rather make friendship. France is obvious friend, you dont want another bonus strenght to fight against. Also not do hard to befriend. The most obvious target for a rush is Saladin, I would expect him to be the weakest early stage. Renember to try joined war, invite Cree and Mapuche, so to make them friends too. Alternatively go for Apadana wonder spam.

otoh, the territory is not very ideal for a domination and Saladin is further away. Lots of hills and cities are settled in decently defensive positions. I think Robby getting early Xbows rarely matters, because the AI is often too stupid to place them in cities. Also, Scotlands cities are on incredibly easy terrain. If there was less forest it would be a free cavalry rush. The way it looks to me you can probably completely eliminate the scots before t80. I agree Saladin is the easiest Civ of them all, but I think often times terrain and distance has much more impact than enemy Civ. Honestly, often times enemy Civ doens't really matter at all, sadly.

Don't use catapults, they suck. Against walls go with battering rams instead. If your attack is fast enough, and you have enough cultural pressure, conquered cities won't flip SO fast. Anyway, you'll probably have to conquer all of Scotland to be on the safe side.

I think Catapults are pretty okay to be honest. I used to ignore them in Vanilla, but nowadays they're decent. Also you want 2 catapults for the Eurekah anyway (upgrading them is much cheaper than buying the Bombards). Slingers/Archers/Xbows are pretty weak against cities, just melee and rams simply sucks against high defense walls.

 

[DrCron]

I think Catapults are pretty okay to be honest. I used to ignore them in Vanilla, but nowadays they're decent. Also you want 2 catapults for the Eurekah anyway (upgrading them is much cheaper than buying the Bombards). Slingers/Archers/Xbows are pretty weak against cities, just melee and rams simply sucks against high defense walls.

Catapults suck a bit less now than in vanilla, but they are still slower than battering rams. You will not be facing "high defense walls" in the early game, just ancient walls (battering rams don't work against anythin else anyway). I'm talking early war here, so just dealing with the first few walls the AI builds. Later on, seige towers can also help. Siege units will be really good in late game war, with balloons, but early on they aren't so great

And regarding upgrading or buying 2 bombards... I don't think I have ever played a game in which the boost to siege tactics is so important that I need to rush it for some reason.

 

[yung.carl.jung]

Catapults suck a bit less now than in vanilla, but they are still slower than battering rams. You will not be facing "high defense walls" in the early game, just ancient walls (battering rams don't work against anythin else anyway). I'm talking early war here, so just dealing with the first few walls the AI builds. Later on, seige towers can also help. Siege units will be really good in late game war, with balloons, but early on they aren't so great

You are right, catapults are definitely slower than Rams. They are also lower risk, but not that much. The main advantage that Catapults give you is that you get early Bombards with promotions. So in a sense Catapults are only really worth if you plan on a second war, and if you plan on warring past T100, and if you need the Eurekah (aka you plan to win science or science-assisted-dom). Lots of "ifs". One thing that Catapults are really good for is simply taking city shots though. Cities will prioritize catapults, so make sure you have one wounded catapult sitting on a forest-hill tile with all the defensive promotions and fortified, and it can draw away so much city pressure. Makes the AI much more predictable, which is always good. Few people think that far, though

And regarding upgrading or buying 2 bombards... I don't think I have ever played a game in which the boost to siege tactics is so important that I need to rush it for some reason.

Friend, every Eurekah is important in this game I try to get pretty much every Eurekah aside from the ridiculous one like 3 Biplanes or 3 Airports (even though that one helps a ton!). The Eurekah for Siege Tactics is needed to get Citadels/Fortresses (forgot their name), which is a Eurekah in and of itself! It is also needed to get to Oil/building oil wells. And for Steel, the #1 defensive tech in the game.

 

[cusp]

Folks, big thanks for all the replies so far. I have attached 2 additional save files, from 2 separate attempts to play this map:

1- Turn 58: I got up to 5 cities (including one that I was able to build by stealing a settler from Scotland) and was preparing to start mass-building swordsmen. I was actually in the process of building an encampment 2 tiles away from one of Scotland's cities and was hoping to spend the next 10-20 turns building warriors and some support, mass upgrading to swordsmen, then attacking. The problem in this variation is that the city where I am building the encampment is losing 6 loyalty per turn - even with a governor. This also doesn't bode well for any attack that I would attempt. I think if I were in a Normal age, this would be an easier game, and I actually tried a separate playthrough where I just explored to see if it's easily possible to get enough era score for a normal age by just exploring (the answer is 'yes' - with 2 scouts I was able to get enough era score for a golden age). What do you think? Am I still in the game in this one, or did I make too many mistakes already for this attempt to be viable?

2- Turn 191: So, this is a separate playthrough. Here, I started with a relatively early warrior + archer rush against Scotland (t40-50), and was able to raze one of his cities and generally push him out of the contested land. I then tried to build up peacefully and was preparing a cavalry push. I started with just around 20 horsemen, and had the money to upgrade about 10 of them. What happened next was that my cavalry attack was able to pick up one city (well, actually recapture one of mine that I'd lost to a culture flip earlier), and because it was one of mine I couldn't raze it, so I then had to deal with it culture-flipping. This save file is ~ the turn before the war. I am assuming this game will probably also highlight my peaceful build-up weaknesses, so any other feedback welcome. Is this still playable, or is it over?

Thanks again for all the help here.

 

[yung.carl.jung]

Just a few quick comments. Never raze cities. Always take them. If they flip, simply take them again. Often times it only costs two or three attacks. Focus high pop cities to get loyalty under control.

Generally speaking, no game is ever over unless the AI wins culture or religious victory the next turn. I have never had a map that was unwinnable so far. As soon as the player catches up in science and culture he will be ahead for the rest of the game and the AI can't win. If I had one piece of advice to give to you, it would be to continue in the same vein. You're doing great. Focus on establishing military/taking out one AI/then winning Diplo, Culture or Science. Once you feel comfortable taking out one neighbor you'll likely never lose a Deity game again.

If I have some time I will try your files and play them out myself! From what it sounds like, you will likely be winning in the second scenario if you focus on catching up in science/culture. A space victory is virtually always possible before the AI gets one (you have time til ~T300). Good luck!

 

[cusp]

Thanks for the comments - I'll try to play out my cavalry attack again and see how it goes. I've also attached screenshots for the 2 attempts above, for easier access than having to load save-files.

 

[yung.carl.jung]

That is a lot of units. Really good job there, people usually build too few and are then surprised they don't capture any cities Your army seems well-equipped to take on Scotland. Sadly, imho they're coming a bit too late. Fighting the AI post T150 is inefficient and frustrating. I prefr to fight pillage-wars at that point in the game (not trying to take cities, just getting advantages from pillaging). Once the AI gets two sets of walls taking a city becomes very tedious and ressource intensive. I think if you are going to conquer an AI for the economic benefit of having more cities and better yields, you want to be done by T150, ideally earlier. (In your game however I would just go for it now and take all their cities)

There is usually two ways to do this: You early rush your neighbor and take them out, then build more army & upgrade, then kill your next neighbor. Or you expand peacefully until ~T60-80, then build a sizeable army and attack around T80-T90, taking out your first neighbor first and then instantly going for your next neighbor. Adding cities to your empire doesn't do that much after T200, since at that point in the game you are already trying to go to space usually.

I think you have too much cavalry and too few ranged units. Cavalry is pretty useless against cities after the siege nerf, sadly. Your culture is low, and it's costing you. In a mediocre game, you want around 50 culture per turn on T100. In a strong game, you want around 100 culture per turn at T100. The same goes for science pretty much. At T200 you should be on your way to victory.

However, I believe, you still have enough time to win this. Judging from your T191 screenshot, I would select the opponent with the fewest Walled cities and just rush them. Try to either eliminate them or get a good peace deal. After that focus exclusively on getting your science and culture up and getting your spaceport as fast as possible. I hope my commentary is helpful, otherwise I'll stop

 

[cusp]

Thanks for the thorough reply. Your commentary is extremely helpful - I've been playing various iterations of Civ on and off for years (3,4, a tiny bit of 5, 6), and I've always hovered somewhere around Emperor. My quarantine goal ( : D ) is to finally get to Deity in one or more of them.

With respect to your specific comments:

- Cavalry ignores walls with siege towers in at least my version of R&F (which I assume is the latest since I auto-update through Steam). I know this for sure because I attacked from the position in the screenshot yesterday, and definitely went through the walls. I was able to take 2 Scottish cities which kept culture-flipping before my attack bogged down. I then agreed to peace with Scotland with the intent of surrounding both cities with cavalry and recapturing them every time they flipped, though this was largely rendered moot by the fact that France DoW'd me and moved in with a bunch of cavalry armies. I may or may not have been able to hold this, but by that point it was clear that this is not a suitable plan.

- I would like to try the early-ish war proposal. What do you think of my setup in the t58 screenshot? As I mentioned way back, the problem in the t58 setup is that I am in a Dark Age so even the cities that I do own I can't hold due to culture, but I am probably fine with just surrounding them and using the free city flips to EXP grind my units and hold better borders with Scotland. Alternatively, I might restart and try to replicate this position but with enough era score for a Normal age (would be great to have a map editor so I could try to change certain things instead of replaying the whole map, just to get an idea of what needs to be adjusted). If you think it's a reasonable setup, what unit comp. would you use when building up for an attack here?

- I don't know that I can get to cavalry before around this turn *and* have enough money to mass-upgrade. The cavalry tech is in a long line of techs that require boosts from the center of the tree, so I'd have to either take time to research those (thus, largely cancelling out the Eureka benefits), or try to invest more heavily in science to speed up research overall. This, however, would probably set me back economically so I would probably land the cavalry tech sooner, but w/o enough money to actually upgrade. Maybe this is just not a viable strategy all up?

- I noted your comments wrt science and culture output. A lot easier said than done unfortunately. As I mentioned above, for this specific strategy, I also need a good amount of Gold to upgrade my horsemen when the cavalry tech hits so I need to balance the opportunity cost of building commercial hubs (for the extra trade routes and adj. bonuses), with that of building campuses with libraries and universities. Somehow, I can never seem to balance all of these. This is a much larger discussion given how many factors are involved but that's the gist of it. (question: what do you use for Culture, typically? Theater districts? Or is there a more efficient way of playing a culture game? Theater districts always seemed super low-pri to me given the district limits and other restricting factors.)

Thanks again for all the comments so far.

 

[cusp]

Just to add to my answer above, I tried again to do a relatively early rush against Scotland (~t40-50). This time, I also explored the map thoroughly during the Ancient era and was able to pull off a Golden Age. This made a huge difference - I had no culture-flip issues to speak of and was able to slowly pick up almost all of Scotland's land (minus one city that France opportunistically picked up one turn before the war ended).

This game seems promising. I don't think I'll go for any more major wars - rather, my plan is to pick up a couple of city-states if I can, and otherwise maximally expand in my territory while maintaining some defensive units in my border towns. I also managed to squeeze out the Colosseum thanks to China's unique ability to rush wonders, so that should help with happiness and culture.

Not all is roses though: France took nearly the entire top of the map. I'd try to bribe Mapuche to go to war against her, but I'm afraid that she might just wipe out Mapuche in the process. Anyway, we'll see how it goes.

I've attached a screenshot of the current situation. Is my plan reasonable? Should I war some more, perhaps? I think I've somewhat run out of steam for war here, tbh.

 

[yung.carl.jung]

- Cavalry ignores walls with siege towers in at least my version of R&F

Completely forgot about that. In R&F Knight/Cavalry rush with Siege is still the strongest stategy for war, period. You did well!

- I would like to try the early-ish war proposal. What do you think of my setup in the t58 screenshot? As I mentioned way back, the problem in the t58 setup is that I am in a Dark Age so even the cities that I do own I can't hold due to culture, but I am probably fine with just surrounding them and using the free city flips to EXP grind my units and hold better borders with Scotland.

It doesn't really matter at all if they flip. Just focus on taking out all the Scottish cities and after the last one is gone there won't be no flipping no more! I think the t58 save is probably your best bet to continue from. I'd try to rush horsemen if you want to continue to fight.

Dark age is really good and much better than a normal age. It might suck a bit in your specific position, but if you get a dark age first you are almost guaranteed a heroic age next. Dark into heroic is better than golden into golden in my opinion.

- I don't know that I can get to cavalry before around this turn *and* have enough money to mass-upgrade.

Cavalry rushes I pretty much never do. As you say, the tech comes too late. I would prefer Horsemen rushes. I think the strongest rush in R&F is still the timed Knight push. You want to have about 10-15 war carts ready and want to get really fast Feudalism and Mercenaries. mass-upgrade those war-carts with the cards from Mercenaries. Some people can do this at T70, some at T80, some at T100. If you get it much later than that you were probably missing out on science and culture. Knights stay relevant for longer than horsemen or cavalry do, and can easily last you well into T130-T150. That means around 60-80 turns of relevancy. Should be enough to take out two neighbors then turtle to victory!

- I noted your comments wrt science and culture output. A lot easier said than done unfortunately. As I mentioned above, for this specific strategy, I also need a good amount of Gold to upgrade my horsemen when the cavalry tech hits so I need to balance the opportunity cost of building commercial hubs (for the extra trade routes and adj. bonuses), with that of building campuses with libraries and universities. Somehow, I can never seem to balance all of these. This is a much larger discussion given how many factors are involved but that's the gist of it. (question: what do you use for Culture, typically? Theater districts? Or is there a more efficient way of playing a culture game? Theater districts always seemed super low-pri to me given the district limits and other restricting factors.)

Thanks again for all the comments so far.

Theatre districts are very important, even for science. There are also many Eurekahs with regards to them. You want at least 2 every game, ideally however you want 3-4. Their buildings and the Great Works will be your main source of culture, as well as Monuments.

Other districts are much lower priority: Holy Sites (unless you plan going monumentality), Industrial Zones (only need 1 in your spaceport city, or 3 if you want the Industrialization Eurekah), Entertainment Complex (you don't want any, only useful very very late game for a Eurekah), Aqueduct (you only really need one of them for the Eurekah).

The only districts you want to be spamming are Campus and Commercial/Harbor. (for Science victory) TRs are, as you say, very important! Theatre square would be the 3rd most important district.

 

[Casualty of war]

To help counter that Loyalty pressure that keeps flipping your conquests, try having your army travel with a Builder to quickly chop some population into captured cities. Always fix the features that boost Loyalty first, and that includes ones that will cause the city to grow with loyal citizens. You have to capture your enemies largest cities early or even first.

Also, having big cities of your own helps too. I chopped Temple of Artemis into my capital when I tried your save. Since I got Goddess of the Harvest as my pantheon (!) I was chopping EVERYTHING.

I had an Ancient Era war with France, to steal a Builder that I ended up mostly using as a Scout because he couldn't get home for ages. My early 4 Archer-2 Warrior army wasn't up to taking any cities, but it did encourage France to start settling towards Scotland instead, arrogantly close to their capital. So then I waited until finally France declared on Scotland, Catherine took Stirling, had the same Loyalty problems you describe and I attacked Aberdeen late in the Classical the turn Stirling went Free from France's control. I watched the military strengths diminish to keep track of who was getting the better side of the war, positioned to strike at whoever dipped lowest. France was also very motivated to build Walls, making them a much less tempting target.

It is a tricky map to navigate. The Campus spots are mostly miserable, and I was thankful for a +2 location and a single +3. My second city went right on the Yosemite Horses and it wasn't until my fourth city that I got my second Horses to be able to build Horsemen. My city below Kabul was on the Incense primarily just to obtain Iron and Horses.

I was negotiating generous trade deals to keep my other neighbors friendly and got Mapuche to a declared Friend. If multiple civs had decided to come at me at any time, I was doomed. But Scotland, Cree and Mapuche all had serious Barbarian problems, losing units when they weren't even at war with someone; I saw no reason to clear Camps that were doing my work for me.

There is a difficulty between Emperor and Deity! No shame in Immortal first.

 

[yung.carl.jung]

Talking about Godess of Harvest, with which Patch did they change that Pantheon? Anyone got the intel?

 

[The Highwayman]

Talking about Godess of Harvest, with which Patch did they change that Pantheon? Anyone got the intel?

They patched GOTH out last June I believe. Definitely early summer.

 

[cusp]

Hey, folks. FYI, I haven't dropped this thread. I am playing through the game I mentioned above where I managed to pick up nearly all of Scotland's cities and basically take over the bottom right of the map. Will post back here with developments. Thanks for all the help - even if I don't pick up a win (I fear a religious or culture win), this was very valuable learning. Can't recommend enough the approach of trying the same map multiple times until you really get the hang of the strategy for it. I learned more from a few days of this approach, then all previous attempts of playing lower difficulty through to the end (let's face it, the second half of civ6 games is mostly just simcity until you win), or just playing new deity maps over and over and losing without understanding why.

 

[Victoria]

Looking at you T191 save your science and culture are appalling. This seems to be your largest failure.
There is a link to chopping example at the bottom of this post that gives you an idea how to get these districts in the best way. If wanting to war like this you do need commercial hubs But building campus (and library/universities everywhere really helps with domination.

would be great to have a map editor

Download the Free civ6 development tool from steam. They include Firetuner which you can edit your maps with in game as in add remove units, techs, civics, gold Terrain, cities, buildings.

Your comment on upgrade cost is down to way too many units. Up your science game and with strong troops you need less troops. Rushing knights is the right idea if Cavalry/walls still works for you. The key thing being culture and feudalism. Sure culture is not easy to get but theaters are not typically used early. A combination of monuments early, culture tiles/natural wonders, culture from city states (1 envoy = 2 culture) and coliseum... but yes later you do also need a theater or 2 or another way like being suzerain of a CS that allows the creation on culture tiles. Most culture CS allow this, only a couple do not.

yeah, replaying maps is useful, just not too many times or you can built false positives in your head,