1. We have added a Gift Upgrades feature that allows you to gift an account upgrade to another member, just in time for the holiday season. You can see the gift option when going to the Account Upgrades screen, or on any user profile screen.
    Dismiss Notice

DEITY CHALLENGE - aiming for sub 200T victory

Discussion in 'Civ5 - Strategy & Tips' started by IronfighterXXX, Jul 22, 2014.

  1. IronfighterXXX

    IronfighterXXX Work Hard - Play Hard

    Joined:
    Dec 17, 2010
    Messages:
    666
    Location:
    Warsaw, Poland
    I have not seen yet any convincing sub 200T science victory since BNW. It's time to change it :)

    Personally my best result is 209T with Korea but on not ideal map.

    Rules - Standard HOF rules (read this - http://hof.civfanatics.net/civ5/rules.php), standard sized map, any map type, any civ, quickest possible science victory.

    This thread is for posting yours opinions, ideas, and results.

    The orginal idea came from this thread http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=521065, but there wasn't too many participants .

    I really hope I'm not will be the only one posting in this thread ;)
     
  2. dragonxxx

    dragonxxx Chieftain

    Joined:
    Aug 7, 2013
    Messages:
    829
    this is for ppl with a lot of free time :)
     
  3. Fire0rb

    Fire0rb Chieftain

    Joined:
    Mar 11, 2013
    Messages:
    265
    this is for people who reroll a start so often that they get a perfect start and replay it and know everything...

    not my kind of play style of the game so have fun with it. Maybe if you find a suitable map you can post it and all can try to get something out of it.
     
  4. IronfighterXXX

    IronfighterXXX Work Hard - Play Hard

    Joined:
    Dec 17, 2010
    Messages:
    666
    Location:
    Warsaw, Poland
    HOF rules - no reloading/replaying, but yes it will need reroll map a lot.
     
  5. danaphanous

    danaphanous religious fanatic

    Joined:
    Sep 6, 2013
    Messages:
    1,501
    I read the HOF rules and was confused about that. Is this an "honor rule?" how can we possibly tell if someone has replayed a map then submitted their best time anyway. The save will look fine and standard after investigation.

    I am working on reducing my own SV time, and will follow you guys but am nowhere near T200 mark and don't usually play science civs. I'm a bit too careless for HOF rules though as I frequently make dumb mistakes like planting a city 1 turn before NC, accidentally clicking a unit to go halfway across the map, bombarding the worker I meant to capture, or forgetting to trade my lux that I got. In my head I can game out what is optimum, but then make mistakes that generally amount to a couple dozen turns difference by end-game. I'm still stuck around T250 SV (I think)--mainly because I can't ever find the happiness to grow my 4 cities smoothly even with just 1 food ship to the capital, forget a 2nd to other cities, and can't get enough early gold to purchase my science buildings right away (which wastes some turns) unless I play venice. Not having enough gold often means I can't get more than 1 CS ally until the industrial as well so that might be my happiness problem right there. How do you guys balance RA's, buying science buildings, getting CS for the extra happiness and have enough gold to go around? I'm already selling all my luxes and resources immediately first round till I need them and gradually transitioning to trading for other luxes. This allows smooth growth until I hit a wall in the Renaissance when my gold doesn't seem to scale quick enough to cover how expensive things are getting. I barely have enough to sign RA's with my 3 friends and buy a few easy things like work boats, lighthouses.

    Also, do you play huge size?
     
  6. IronfighterXXX

    IronfighterXXX Work Hard - Play Hard

    Joined:
    Dec 17, 2010
    Messages:
    666
    Location:
    Warsaw, Poland
    I'm pretty sure they can detect reloading, but replaying a map - well, it's probably "honor rule".
     
  7. danaphanous

    danaphanous religious fanatic

    Joined:
    Sep 6, 2013
    Messages:
    1,501
    Oh, okay, well my faith in HOF is restored then. Even if you can restart it'd be difficult to replay the whole game perfectly. ;)

    Hey, I'm not down under t250 yet but am just playing specifically science civs for the first time and wanting to try for lower records. I'm willing to join this discussion and make an effort. I want to improve on my skills as well. As such I'm gonna ask some science questions that we can all discuss and lets share our wisdom:

    Question 1: When do you sign RA's? I have lot of friends so could get 3 going immediately, or could use the gold for CS, or could use it to buy science buildings. Which is better? On Deity all the AI get decent bpt and I often have Porcelain tower by the time the first few are coming in for 7.5 AI turns. My solution is to sign around 2 early after universities and save the rest of my gold for other things. But I could get more. What do you do?

    Question 2: Is it better to spend your time stealing the bottom of the Medieval/Renaissance tech tree if the techs are 2-4 turns or to be rigging CS at this point and waiting till they are all 1-2 turns for a quick rush and tech discount? I could do either but always thought a few saved turns in tech was better and purposefully left the bottom unresearched in a blind push for public schools, industrialization, then radio. Meanwhile I'm stealing them, this removes the risk of attack when I have outdated troops. Recently realized lack of CS may be my happiness problem though and on Deity I'm not automatically completing any of the turn quests other than occasionally science.

    Question 3: Do you nerf growth to run university specialists immediately? If so how do you compensate for the lost growth? I just started playing Babylon for the first time and I want to use their UA to the fullest. So I do this, build gardens and national epic soon and am rolling in scientists. However, Between the slots in the guilds and universities this often would halt growth in my satellites to very slow and really slows down my capital. I have a food ship incoming and am running 2 university and 2 guild slots in my capital and growth has slowed to every 10 turns after I passed 20-pop even making sure I scattered my 2nd and 3rd guilds about to other cities. 2nd food ship? What if you lack 3 coastal cities?

    Question 4: What priority do you give CS? Is patronage the best 2nd choice if rationalism is not available yet? That seems to be what ironfighterxxx always does, and if you are staying small I could see the benefit from a lux/resources standpoint. If you choose patronage how far do you get into it, on average, before you can open rationalism? What order do you choose? Gold gifts or flat +20 influence first? Do you try to ally or just be satisfied with the "friends" status. I've done all of them with great success before but on Deity there have usually been 3 crazy patronage guys who ally everything before I can even get my first ally. I kinda got discouraged from trying, but I could see easily using it to get a couple allies that stuck with me and just friends with the rest for culture, cap food, and +3 happiness from the mercs.

    Question 5:Which National and world wonders? Obviously NC as soon as possible as long as it doesn't delay 2nd & third cities getting up. I usually don't try for any others for a long time other than oracle. Is it worth it to emphasize getting national epic and east india company? I usually don't have to hammers to spare as I'm building other things, however, I still tend to get distracted by a few wonders. Not ancient ones, but medieval and renaissance ones. I always try for oracle as it's easy to get and starts a point toward GS far earlier than is otherwise possible. Also a free tenet and +5 culture is awesome and can get it easily even on Deity. By the time I finish basic buildings, NC, settlers, oracle, and first guild I'm usually trying for something else like a religious wonder (Hagia Sofia to finish a religion or get extra faith) Inevitably I'm behind on buildings in my capital so I never get to try for the other national wonders between extra cargo ships, science buildings, etc. Until near industrial. Something seems wrong about that. Porcelain tower is usually my 3rd wonder attempt as I never have trouble getting it either and the extra scientist and +50% to RA's seems too valuable to miss on a science game. Then it's a straight shot to plastics via industrialization and public schools. I usually rush radio for the early extra spy and ideology pick--and culture benefits and build Eiffel in a bit if I have time. Every game I've done this unhappiness after ideologies is greatly reduced. I pick freedom usually and betwen the 1/2 food, 1/2 unhappiness, rationalism science buff, and statue of liberty soon after my food problems running specialists are gone and I run them all. However, with this path I get zero great engineers. You could get more wonders for less hammers if you had some but also would proportionally get less scientists since they annoying share the buffer.

    Question 6: Religion try or no? I always try for a religion due to the massive benefits. I don't invest a ton of effort on Deity. Just explore aggressively for maybe a ruin boost or religious CS and build shrine as soon as possible. This has a low opportunity cost. Sometimes Nothing comes of it and I only get a late pantheon in which case I'm still benefitted by it. In best case I get a reasonable pantheon with faith, and end up with a decent religion, but I've found that this leads me to build a lot of religious stuff and change my priorities. IS this bad? Should I always ignore religion or is it actually helping me? I usually can't get a religious building (my favorite) on Deity like I could on immortal, but usually can get a growth one or religious community which helps things out. Do you experts do the same or ignore it and see what the AI brings you?

    Question 7: How game-changing is an adjacent mountain? Would you reroll until you got one and are all low t200 scores made with the observatory boost? I've noted it yield a ton of extra early science on my latest babylonian game where I started right next to one and on the coast. It was great.

    Question 8: How do you use/prioritize Great Scientists? Obviously, as many as possible. They seem the key to early victories and 1-2 more can mean 16 less turns end-game often. I've been planting them until around public schools (or until I started getting close to 1500 beakers per burn as this seemed better than adding up the contribution of the academy over time with some quick mental math for sub t250 victory). I usually started burning them right away as I thought the cost was fixed but just learned it is a running average. So another question is, do you guys save the ones you get late renaissance. I get around 3 over that time and I just realized waiting to burn until after public schools might really boost the value of them. But then I'm also slower toward public schools and labs so I'm not sure what is better. Do you save? If so, do you wait long or burn for the early tech value? There is value to getting the science techs quicker I'd think that might offset saving them. So the balance I came up with was save them until I see I can get to a valuable science tech like public schools or plastics if I burn them all right then. Same end-game. Save until my pile of GS's can finish out all the techs I need as beakers climb every turn late game and so does GS bulb value. This strat works best with order/freedom to rush the last part upon completion of the last tech.

    Question 9: How many cities? Tall 4-standard-tradition? Tall core but with extra satellites (hybrid)? I usually am short enough on happiness that 4 good-growing cities is all I can afford. You could theoretically plop extras down near luxes and horses, make them not grow, and make them happiness neutral until you have ideologies, but then tech penalty affects you. If I'm going optimum science, I personally can't seem to manage much more than 4, but I know some ppl that can and the math says it's better if you can manage it and get libraries in them. What do you do for growth and unhappiness if you do this? Do you decide on extra cities if there are good mountains and jungle nearby for cities 5-8? This really makes extra cities worth it in my experience and keeps them science-positive. I saw someone that advocated tall core with satellites stunted at around size 3-5 varying based on how much happiness they were producing. Then got them up to universities and ran all the science specialists to make them net-positive. I could see Korea really being awesome like this.

    Question 10: Game settings? I personally always go huge/Deity as the Deity AI explode, especially on pangaea, and get like 20 cities. This make trading with them awesome as they have loads of gold for loan (to rush science buildings), and their RA's can net me almost 8 turns as they keep up in science for most of the game. Anything that makes AI more powerful seems to result in less time spent for victory in my experience.
     
  8. Acken

    Acken Chieftain

    Joined:
    Sep 13, 2013
    Messages:
    5,635
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    QC, Canada
    Q1: Never, if you aim for very fast science victory you will never get an AI that will give enough science. Also the faster you are the more hard it gets to build everything you want. Freeing turns throush rushes is in my opinion a better option for gold. Not sure there is a concensus here but that's what I do. 1 or 2 renaissance RA may be worth it, after that forget it. Maybe things get different with early porcelain.

    Q2: You can steal a couple. After that use that lvl2-3 spy for CS. You'll grab the rest when going for plastics at 1turn each.

    Q3: Fast win means very strong growth, you shouldn't have trouble running slots. If you have trouble running the slots you are not going to get such a good finish time. Either way, food caravans/cargos usually ensure to have enough food to run slots. If you cant grow dont run slots.

    Q4: Opening commerce is probably a better idea than patronage. If you miss rationalism after tradition however your game isn't going well. If you can't get Oracle at renaissance (dicey on Deity) you can invest the free policy in commerce.

    Q5: NC obviously. Petra if necessary. Collossus if possible and coastal. HG is probably too risky on Deity (get it if no one is building it after you have your base empire going). After that you will want Pisa, Porcelain, Hubble. For NW you want national epic, oxford. I'd also suggest the grand temple if you need the extra faith for one extra faith GS or faith GE. Circus is also possible if you made more cities requiring more happiness.

    Q6: Yes you want a religion. The extras from it are necessary for best times. But if you don't get a good faith start you won't get a good religion so it's not worth trying.

    Q7: Game breaking. Best times absolutely require mountains. In cap at least. All your other cities will require either a mountain or great growth. Both is best.

    Q8: I never plant more than one. Don't even know if that one is really worth it. You can bulb some key techs like plastics and scientific theory however. The faster your game is the less an academy will yield overall.
    I recommand to not bulb these key techs if youre not ready to build the science buildings (building something else important or not having the gold), using the bulb at the end to win 8 turns there will be more useful than to win 8 turn now if you cannot make use of it right away. Bulb only when ready.
    After 8-ish turns of laboratories you will probably don't have much to build. At that point you will want to bulb a few GS to start on Appollo and the parts. Then you finish quickly the tech tree, build the parts as you go, time hubble to not delay a natural GS and grab the last parts with 1 or 2 GE.
    Use oxford for radio and rationalism finisher for an information era tech.

    Q9: 4 cities can give you nice 220-240 wins. However I'm fairly certain 5 strong cities are key if you want to go below. If you can manage the happiness 6 is probably even better.

    Q10: Also remember Huge size tends to lead to slower turn win due to the increase in tech costs. The idea is to get more cities on these huge map to get more science since the tech penalty is lower. Not sure how things balance out compared to standard size however.

    About HoF, there's proabably some limitations about what is detectable but I'm pretty sure replaying a map looks suspicious since it's the same as reloading on turn 0, beginning a new game session.
    Not sure I'll participate, HoF takes an awful amount of time.
     
  9. IronfighterXXX

    IronfighterXXX Work Hard - Play Hard

    Joined:
    Dec 17, 2010
    Messages:
    666
    Location:
    Warsaw, Poland
    1) I almost never sign RAs, better buy science buildings or ally cultural CS

    2) I use spies first off on CSs - not sure it's the best

    3) You should placed your cities so early and in good spot that it shouldn't be a problem

    4) Actually I almost always open rationalism straight after tradition :)

    5) most important wonders
    national - NC, NE , OU
    world - LToP, PT, Hubble

    6) Religion is important - you will need at least 3 GPs
    from faith

    7) For sub 200 I will reroll until get mountain, coastal start ;)

    8) I almost never plant GSs unless Babylon, bulb for science techs and after RL

    9) For sub 200 at least 5, better 6

    10) I always play on standard settings - my computer only allows on it :(
     
  10. danaphanous

    danaphanous religious fanatic

    Joined:
    Sep 6, 2013
    Messages:
    1,501
    Wow, totally different than I play.

    Interesting that both of you don't sign many RA's. I found it the only way to get a decent finish time with Venice as they suffer some science penalties with their puppets and MoV messing up GS numbers. Usually each one would take between 2-7 turns off my science with the two tech leaders taking 6 or 7 turns off. So some are near the strength of an extra GS on Deity. However, venice is the one civ you aren't lacking in cash on so RA's are kinda just a free perk. I got enough for a new one like every turn and could still rush buy everything so Venice probably taught me bad habits.

    So for scientists, both of you said you rarely plant more than 1, and only if you get it early. So do you just save them all till the industrial or something? I have a bad habit of wanting to find a use for them...just recently started saving them but never have for whole eras or so.

    I'm thinking about the numbers. If I plant the first Babylonian GS it definitely pays off as you get that like T20 if not earlier. It speeds up all the early techs meaning earlier universities and growth techs which is key. Also a decent lot of extra beakers after multipliers over 180 turns. I see why saving the others is good though. You don't get them until after universities which is already in Renaissance--might as well save them till they become more powerful thought that never crossed my mind.
     
  11. Hammer Rabbi

    Hammer Rabbi Chieftain GOTM Staff

    Joined:
    Jan 3, 2012
    Messages:
    4,460
    Location:
    USA
    or maybe post your sub-200 results but require a reload count, how many times you actually reloaded/replayed during that win and how much it helped you get that win. if it only took one or two reloads it would still be a pretty significant win. and the details could be interesting.

    edit: does this mean you can try the beaker overflow exploit? i dont see it mentioned in the hof rules.
     
  12. sun8119

    sun8119 Chieftain

    Joined:
    Jul 25, 2013
    Messages:
    252
    Do you think there is a better map type than pangaea for this?

    Sub 200 should be pretty hard now since SV is obviously nerfed now and spaceship parts take ages to build. You probably need that policy that allows you to finish spaceship parts with GE and you obviously need GEs :D

    I don't think I have anything game specific to share that you don't know. I used to sign many RAs and rush buy science building only in my capital. Maybe I have to try rush buying all science buildings and see how it goes. When I play deity I play all standard, pangaea, usually reroll to get a good map and usually play only upper tier civs. Win times are 240-280 but I sometimes reload if it cripples my progress too much :(
     
  13. Acken

    Acken Chieftain

    Joined:
    Sep 13, 2013
    Messages:
    5,635
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    QC, Canada
    Venice would be the exception I guess, you have a lot more gold for RA. But nobody plays Venice to get a record time.

    For GS I keep them till after plastics for the final rush. I only use 1 for plastics and 1 for scientific theory and 1 planted, maybe.
    You obviously want to plant the free GS as babylon though.

    No the overflow exploit is noted as banned here for HoF rules:
    http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=514796

    Pangea is fine or other form of maps giving the potential for a lot of land mass, meeting every civ fast, mountains and coasts.
     
  14. IronfighterXXX

    IronfighterXXX Work Hard - Play Hard

    Joined:
    Dec 17, 2010
    Messages:
    666
    Location:
    Warsaw, Poland
    I will be still happy if somebody post sub 200 victory even with reloads.

    However the goal is to get clear, undisputed victory - that's why HOF rules and I hope this game will be submit. ( Some time ago on this site someone post screenshot from ~193T deity victory, however later it turned out to be on quite strange settings - no barbs, different amount civs, CSs,etc..., also he didn't post final save)

    As Acken mention beaker overflow exploit is banned in HOF rules.
     
  15. IronfighterXXX

    IronfighterXXX Work Hard - Play Hard

    Joined:
    Dec 17, 2010
    Messages:
    666
    Location:
    Warsaw, Poland
    I'm going to start reroll soon, to get perfect map ;)

    Let's discuss settings. I take into account the three options:

    Korea - Pangea, mountain, coastal start

    Babylon - Pangea, mountain, coastal start

    Aztecs - Lakes, obviously lakes, mountain start

    3 billion age world, low sea level, not sure about temperature, humidity.

    What do you think which opponents I should choose?
     
  16. sun8119

    sun8119 Chieftain

    Joined:
    Jul 25, 2013
    Messages:
    252
    I've had good luck with these AIs:
    Brazil
    Persia
    India
    Ethiopia
    Dutch (beware, Oracle goes pretty soon)
    Sweden
    Polynesia
    Byzantium
    China
     
  17. dragonxxx

    dragonxxx Chieftain

    Joined:
    Aug 7, 2013
    Messages:
    829
    avoid religious fanatics like Ethiopia. better put Venice in
     
  18. BBMorti

    BBMorti Chieftain

    Joined:
    Sep 23, 2012
    Messages:
    143
    I don't like playing vs Polynesia for SV, he likes Oracle from my experience. I would also rate Maya/Poland and Inca over Aztecs for pushing SV times, but will be interesting enough to see the results. Most will likely do it with babylon/Korea ^^
     
  19. IronfighterXXX

    IronfighterXXX Work Hard - Play Hard

    Joined:
    Dec 17, 2010
    Messages:
    666
    Location:
    Warsaw, Poland
    I think about these civs:

    India, Arabia, Brazil, Portugal, Morocco, Netherlands, Indonesia

    I'm not sure about Sweden - while 10% boost GP generation seems nice I'm afraid start near them (also bonus is not guaranteed).
     
  20. phillipwyllie

    phillipwyllie Wannabe Deity

    Joined:
    Dec 11, 2003
    Messages:
    1,453
    Location:
    4 Hexes from FoY
    It is banned
     

Share This Page