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Deity Cultural - Regular, OCC, or Regular-one-city?

Discussion in 'Civ5 - Strategy & Tips' started by maltz, Feb 10, 2011.

  1. maltz

    maltz King

    Joined:
    Jan 24, 2006
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    What do you think? I have provided my thoughts below.

    Also, I am now trying my first Cultural game on Deity Standard Standard. Just in case you are interested in my learning process:
    http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=411077

    Question: Does the Utopia Project's required hammer increase with the total number of cities (own cities + puppet cities)?

    (1) Regular (not OCC)

    Pros:
    - More income
    - Faster research
    - Puppet cities do not increase policy point requirement
    - Puppet cities increase income and research - encourages an all-out aggressive approach
    - Faster cultural policy at the beginning (from Cultural City States)

    Con:
    - Each extra city raises required Cultural Points by 30% (adding just a few turns could mean losing to a Diplomatic/Science victory), slower policy gain towards the end.
    - Delayed building of key National Wonders (National College, Ironwork, Hermitage)

    (2) OCC:

    Pros:
    - Fast to unlock policies, fast to reach Utopia project (Starting from mid-game, when the City's own cultural output outweights City State's contribution)
    - Faster construction of National Wonders
    - Instantly raze all conquered cities - very large capital territory, getting more resources - encourages a passive-aggressive approach

    Cons:
    - Little income
    - Slower initial policies from less City States allies

    (3) Regular setting, one-city only

    Pros:
    - Faster policy, Utopia Project
    - Can still sell conquered cities - a little income and create a buffer zone - also encourages a passive-aggressive approach

    Cons:
    - Little income
    - Smaller border

    My current game is a mix of (1) and (3), with 2 cities and try to stay peaceful as long as possible.
     
  2. Pyrrho

    Pyrrho Chieftain

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    I enjoy playing OCC. It changes the feel of the game dramatically in my opinion, and perhaps I am a builder at heart which I think OCC caters to well. I am not sure about the Utopia Project's hammer cost, but if there is scaling wouldn't it be just with your own cities (i.e. not puppets) since that is the way things seem to work in other areas?

    In relative terms the income is pretty low, but since this thread is about the deity difficulty level resource selling will provide a much needed boost to gold generation to keep RA's running and perhaps a CS alliance or two if the starting location is good enough.

    For OCC cultural/scientific I find success comes down to being as efficient as possible, which essentially means not being involved in war... which is sometimes easier said than done. I find myself having success in staying out of war by avoiding early friendship declarations, early on they just seem to cause more problems diplomatically than they are worth it (wait until the AI carve up the world in blocks and then choose). You definitely do not want to be on your aggressive neighbour's bad side.
     
  3. maltz

    maltz King

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    Yep. I played two OCC games and found them pretty fun. Never tried OCC Culture, though.

    I don't like the auto-razing OCC feature, which also destroys occupied City States. City States are such a nice new feature of Civ5. I think playing as a weakling to liberate other weakling City States is novel spirit of Civ5 especially compared the denouncing AIs. But a OCC cultural game will have too little fund to ally with multiple CS anyway. So may as well raze them all. :p
     
  4. noncognosco

    noncognosco Warlord

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    Sorry if this seems obvious but what is the difference between actually picking OCC and just never building a second city? Is it only the auto-razing?
     
  5. vexing

    vexing knows

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    one city + puppets.
     
  6. UWHabs

    UWHabs Deity

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    I think OCC for each captured city, you should be allowed to either liberate or raze. Then, a valid OCC strat would be as "Liberator of city-states" to get the bonuses. Unfortunately, that's not possible at the moment.
     
  7. Airey

    Airey Prince

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    don't get the culture/research/money from puppets.

    OP's 3rd option = one city + puppets (like vexing described)
     
  8. GCavalry

    GCavalry Chieftain

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    In Civ 4 Hall of Fame there will be sepearate kind of victory. I never look to Civ 5 Hall of Fame but think it will be the same so you don't have to compare your occ games with other non-occ games.

    Also there is maybe a score boost for OCC.
     
  9. biohazard72

    biohazard72 Prince

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    British Columbia
    AFAIK, culture wins are fastest by OCC, so do that. Even so, you'll need nobody to go to space or win by Diplo by the time you win (turn 280-290ish?), so I recommend cooking the AIs (no Siam, Greece, Russia, Iroquois at the very least because they pursue Diplo and Space quite aggressively).

    Good luck.
     
  10. MadDjinn

    MadDjinn Deity

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    Culture wins are always faster when you make everyone else a puppet.

    Generally, you need a 2nd city to be able to produce the Utopian Project faster (due to the railroad bonus)
     
  11. maltz

    maltz King

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    I read the railroad bonus is only given to the 2nd city, but not the capital. Has patching fixed this?
     
  12. ChuckVader

    ChuckVader Chieftain

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    No, the capital never gets the railroad bonus.
     
  13. vexing

    vexing knows

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    that's a ridiculous assertion.
    with tradition bonus and maritime capital bonus, your capital will always be huge compared to other cities, and with factory and windmill modifiers another city only gains +30% production compared to capital. even if your capital is all in grasslands you can get statue of liberty to punt the citizens to unemployed for +2 prod for utopia project.
    you're never going to save time by having a 2nd city.
     
  14. Airey

    Airey Prince

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    Have you heard about the patch that gives every puppet +100 happiness?
    Why should Capital get railroad bonus in the 1st place. It's the longest standing city in the empire.

    Normally I agree. But coming from MadDjinn, I was a little skeptical:
    - late game +10/+15 pop city captures from Peace treaty
    - annex those, 3 turns courthouse, + 50% RR bonus (considering AI prebuilds all the production modifiers for you already) can easily out produce Capital
     
  15. MadDjinn

    MadDjinn Deity

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    I wouldn't say "ridiculous". That's pretty strong, hope you can back that up with real data.

    Factory+Windmill= 65%. Both can have that.
    Railroad bonus = +50%... only a non-cap can have that. Not sure how you arrive at +30%.

    Statue of Lib works for the 2nd city as well.

    non-cap cities can grow as well. ;) Sure, caps get the extra growth from both higher Maritime and tradition, but not every cap will be 10 pop above the next city. How many maritime cities are actually on the map that you're using? That will change things, but given that it tends to be a random mix, it won't always exist.

    not to mention that you won't always find the best production site at your start location.

    So yeah, 'ridiculous' is pretty strong and wrong.

    @Aiery - Buy the courthouse! buy the prod buildings too.
     
  16. vexing

    vexing knows

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    capital is 1.65x production,
    second city is 2.15x with railroad. 2.15 / 1.65 = 1.3

    it's ridiculous because a second city is going to cause such a huge delay in completion of policies that even if it had equal production possibility to your capital without railroad (which is doubtful if you're playing with CSs on), the extra 30% production bonus is never going to cut down your time of completion on the utopia project enough to make up for policy delay.
     
  17. Airey

    Airey Prince

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    Annex the city when you completed the 5th tree?
    Pick the best city from AI to get in Peace Treaty. You can even throw in a few puppets if they don't want to trade.
    Cities not conquered don't get reduced population. Time it well so it goes out of revolt the turn you can build the project.

    :lol: tx for the tip, true, in culture game, $ from maintaining CS can be use @ buying buildings instead
    - in games without early rush, AI usually builds those production modifier buildings for you
    (before patch couldn't buy courthouse, always forgot that :()
    - on 2nd thought, courthouse is optional....unless close to happy golden age or at -9
     
  18. vexing

    vexing knows

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    you could potentially shave a couple turns that way. regardless, that is pretty rare and completely different than "need a second city."
     
  19. Airey

    Airey Prince

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    good eye...I didn't see the "need" word....ya:
    'need' is pretty strong and wrong. :p


    Why stagnate capital growth in a culture game? Assuming non-cap cities are puppets.
    Just TP micro puppet growth to make sure to stay in + happy as long as possible...easily 10+ pop above the 2nd city.

    Not sure if 1 city is the fastest way though....there's culture game experts suggest otherwise (with properly timed policy + ww)
     

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