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Deity Culture Victory Guide

Discussion in 'Civ5 - Strategy & Tips' started by Deau, Jul 15, 2013.

  1. Deau

    Deau Emperor

    Apr 17, 2011
    Quebec, Can
    Hi all,

    First, I want to apologize if this reads as a Wall-of-text. I needed to put my ideas out to the world to both get feedback and to read it myself. I will try to iterate on this guide over the next few weeks unless someone else comes up with a better guide. I have been somewhat busy since release but I have mostly focused on culture victory games. This thread will present an overall guide, at this point still seriously up for discussion more than anything, as well as some topics I would like to discuss/share to try and find solutions around.

    Setup: CV is extremely capital-centric but does not have significant drawbacks to going wider, for so long as you can eventually take a slight tech lead around renaissance to hit some game-breaking wonders. My first attempt setup was 2-city as Morocco, which failed miserably for a point I will discuss below (I bailed as diplo at T282). The second game, went 3-city as Shoshone and resulted in a T271 victory which, due to the shear nature of my game, could've probably ended around T245 since no AI had really put out any worthwhile culture.

    My first comment is that this victory type is hardly achievable without at least a solid capital city. Mostly because you would optimally want to run all 3 guilds there as you would have both a garden and the national epic. If you can get a second city with solid growth and average or weak hammers, you can always consider that city as your guild hub and just purchase/skip other infrastructure.

    What's important to understand about CV, is that the amount of tourism output by super late game Great Musician concerts (after The Internet) is so godly OP that you will want to both focus science all along AND try to hoard roughly 5000 faith from industrial until the internet. In my last game, I purchased 3 GM and timed a GM pop the turn I teched The Internet. They were each worth a whooping 10500 tourism. At that time, my total tourism pressure to most neighbor was roughly 16k.

    Wonder Priority:
    Pisa(hard built) > Louvre > Uffizi > Broadway. All of these should be achievable at the current AI tech pace on deity. Use Pisa's GE to catch Uffizi. The reason why Louvre and Uffizi are preferred is because they can host Artifacts which are fairly easy to obtain, unlike GAMW. Broadway is one exception because it is quite achievable, since it will always be your first tech in modern era, to pop a natural GM shortly after teching and then another one quite later but before hitting atomic era.

    In general, you should also have no issue hard building PT over 20-25 turns in a satellite city after opening Rationalism since the AI seems to just never take rationalism...

    Other wonders
    I recommend not to bother at all with the Parthenon, if anything, the Oracle will boost your game more at this point in time and help you achieve other techs for far more important wonders earlier. The Sistine Chapel is also great to hard build, quite more than the globe theater because it can host artifacts. However, due to tech path discussed below, Globe Theater can be a viable hard build. Eiffel tower is worth hard building and even GE rush if you happen to have one pop around that time or expect to achieve more than the 5k faith by Internet and can faith purchase a GE.

    Tech order:
    Pottery (writing) -> AH+Sailing or Mining depending on AI proximity and whether you have a worker and mining lux -> other lux tech -> currency if you have a petra worth start, philosophy

    otherwise. From there it's a succession of beelines

    Printing Press
    Scientific Theory

    *Upon learning Archeology, you basically want to shift all of your cities to spam building archeologists. You can steal one artifact per neighbor with little diplo consequence. 2 Will likely drop you a notch so its safe to do 2 on AIs that are far away and not in a DoF as you don't want to lose RA partners. It is a great time to use those ancient/classical era units to move atop neutral/CS/within your own territory sites to cover them from enemy AIs stealing your artifacts. It can even be done in Open Border territories to ensure you can at least steal 1 from each neighbor. You will want to pick, from outside your territory, 2 per city for museums, at least 2 for the louvre and then however many "arts" slots you have left and won't fill with Great Artists before the end of the game. Anything within 3 tiles of any of your city should be converted to a landmark unless you are at risk not to achieve The Louvre's bonus without it.

    Afterwards comes another wave of Beelines that is quite similar to that of Science victory.

    Satellites if you are almost guaranteed to be able to build hubble as the techs pays itself off AND you deny another AI from launching.
    The Internet

    How to use the World Congress:
    The most potent hard to achieve proposal is for your religion to be world religion. However, it comes with much diplo penalty and is quite hard to achieve. As such, you will want to delay it as one of your last 2 proposals, once CSs are worth at least one vote and you own many of them. For safety, especially if the AI alternate proposal is "" (aka AI will rather deny your religion than enact the other pick), you will want to trade GPT or lump gold for 3 votes to any/all possible AIs where you have a Diplomat.

    A very easy proposal that should be done as your first possible pick, is the GAMW+33% with -33% GE/GS/GM (Art Funding). This has a double effect of slowing the pace of the game, effectively increasing the time you can spare to hard build wonders, as well as reduce the number of GE-rushed wonders etc. etc. and it is, at least up to my current experience, extremely easy to achieve. More often than not, all AIs will be favorable to both that and the reverse proposal because they see it as a bonus regardless on their strategy.

    Internaltional Projects. World's fair is ok but there are plenty of infrastructure and wonders during renaissance/industrial/early modern not to intentionally propose it. On top of it, if you only run OCC/2city, if you happen to get it up at the same time as the International games, it will allow you to focus 100% on international game and hopefully steal 1st place.

    However, the real strength of the International Games is if you can delay it such that the 20 turns bonus still applies once you have researched The Internet. This is somewhat out of your control to achieve but leaving other go-to bonus proposals to AIs (e.g. not proposing world fair early) will help you get the most out of the 20 turns buff.

    Cultural Heritage Site as well as Historical Landmarks are better off delayed until after Airports, possibly even skipped as they are, early in the game, only helping all AIs runaway in culture making it significantly more difficult for you to great-musician "bulb" through their absurd culture. This was a mistake I had done in my morocco game where Ghandi had 80k culture and Pacal had 70k around turn 300 or so making it absolutely impossible for me to bulb through both of them.

    World Ideology. While this appears designed for CV, it really isn't. Trying to force the world to all convert to Freedom will generally only lead to spam DoWs and no AIs effectively adopting Freedom. This in turn means no open border bonus, no trade route bonus, no diplomat bonus aka it plays completely against culture victory. This is far more a thing for wide warmongerer empires hoping to convert a few extra cities by the shear raw pressure. I'm afraid they may need to tune this proposal to make it worthwhile for anything that getting DoWed across the board or getting easy DoFs with people minded alike.

    SP Plan
    Full tradition
    Patronage left side to scholasticism, don't bother with consulates unless there are many faith CSs and you are far below 50 FPT mark to reasonably achieve 5k faith between industrial and the internet.
    Aesthetic open+cultural centers. Delay everything else until you have at least 6 Freedom tenets.
    Exploration Opener - The Louvre is simply a MUST (this was written as typical Pangaea game, it may be worth investing more into the tree for watery maps obviously)
    Rationalism Opener + Secularism. Since you are growing many tall cities and will be working many specialists, secularism is very strong. However, since the revamp of the tree, it would only be worth investing more than those 2 points if you have outstanding culture flow. My T271 victory I ended up with 750 CPT and didn't spare 2 rationalism SP. I would generally consider 2-3 points in Piety early or Consulates over spending more in rationalism.

    Tenets - Order is somewhat situational but here's my current generic approach
    T1 Avant Garde > Civil Society > most others
    T2 New Deal > Arsenal of democracy > Universal Sufferage
    T3 Media Culture > Treaty Organization

    If the game is expected to be short and you have decent gold/existing CS alliances, you will only need 6 tenets. However, Treaty Organization is extremely powerful and it becomes your go-to solution (easy diplomacy victory) if you are stuck with 2 crazy culture runaway AIs that you can't GM bulb through. The sad thing is that this will more often than not lead to an earlier turn to victory than culture :(. But hey, it's always fun to see a size 23 city from a neutral civ across the map convert to you from their unhappiness. If only they had realized that 23 turns of a useless city in the super late game with a 5% science backfire actually slows you up. I sold it for 110gpt to a DoFed friend that was not at war with him.

    While Aesthetics yells for CV, it is honestly not necessary to fill the tree until the very late game. You only need to open it and possible get the production increase so that all your cities can benefit from it for opera house and maybe even amphitheaters since there's no point building those too early in satellite cities.

    As stated, you will need roughly 5k faith between industrial and the internet. Anything well above that is outstanding because it means either extra GE rushes or, possibly if you can reach 120+ FPT, you can achieve 10k faith for 4musicians and 1 GE. This is actually achievable from another AIs' religion. Sadly however, you need to have a religion for the World Congress proposal of +50% tourism in your capital, as such, the best religion picks are along the lines of:

    FPT Pantheon
    Cathedrals (for extra artifacts slots)
    Religious Arts or Divine Inspiration. If you can't achieve at least 50FPT with everything else, DI should be prefered over RA.
    Mosques>Pagodas or Monasteries>Religious Communities
    RT>IP>RU - RU is somewhat situational, but if you are surrounded by many CSs and have extremely aggressive other AIs on the map, going RU will generally provide better pilgrimage benefits than both RT and IP. This is because you are basically guaranteed to retain the 2FPT from pilgrimage for all the nearby CSs whereas the other2 could very well be out pressured by crazy spreaders. Also, "erratics" spreaders hit civs but not CSs making RU a great pick. (like in my last game, Ashurbanipal hit 5th religion and spammed about 10 GPs throughout and was target-spreading holy cities and some 2nd/3rd cities from other civs without any actual spreading strategy just negating the city from their religion for 30 or so turns).

    Should you, for whatever reason, go full piety (can be potent at lower difficulties where the tourism from the reformation bonus is really strong), then Messiah becomes a great alternative as each holy site will produce 7 culture in the late game with the appropriate world congress proposal. It is an actual somewhat viable alternate approach. The downside is that it doesn't give you nearly as many alternative victory condition availible against multiple runaway culture AIs as there can be on higher difficulties.

    Culture Specialist Allocation. There is one important mistake to avoid here. Don't work the GM slot 24/7 upon building. You will want only 1-2 musicians pre modern era and time a GM shortly after teching Radio. This is in order to achieve the Broadway Theming Bonus. With the free GM it provides being in modern, it is important that you can produce enough GPP from start to end of modern era to generate 2 great musicians. You will also want to be able to time the next GM after Broadway theming bonus is achieved immediately after teching the Internet (1 turn after as the great person spawns before the tech in the turn-order). I find the safest spot is to only build one GM pre modern. However, with the appropriate Enact (+33%), SP+Tenet+Garden+National Epic, 2 GM pre radio is very easy to achieve and allow to time the 5th with The Internet without having to remove the specialists well ahead.

    Special considerations for CV:
    It isn't exactly possible to control culture spamming AIs from doing so other than merely purchasing their culture CSs. This means that it is possible, in a given game, for multiple "runaway cultural AIs" to coexist. This is extremely rough to counter within reasonable turn-to-victory. As such, it is really recommended to have an alternate game plan. Because of the mix of 2 tenets, Diplomacy victory is the obvious easy alternative. However, achieving so many SPs and Tenets, in the current frame where rationalism isn't prohibited to culture victory, actually allows for a change of plans around Teching Plastics which, at this point, you've really only delayed tech order by archeology and are still on par for a good turn-to-victory science. The gold-purchase spaceship part T3 tenet will also allow you to recuperate another 3-5 turns, obviously depending on your capital's production output. Not only that, but even domination is still availible. Mostly because the current deity AI is a joke and should be lagged behind 5% in tech at least so you can rape the world with bombers and cavs. This is not necessarily so much an option with watery maps though.

    Present base TPT scaling in the late game. Discuss the strength and weight of Great Musicians (10*base TPT at spawn). Come up with some rough mats of how much stronger say just 2 late games faith GM are over a non-FPT oriented religion strategy (no pilgrimage/DI) for the low-difficulty reformation bonus oriented strategy.

    *I have skipped the build order opener. It will very likely fall into the typical 1-4 city tradition opener. However, as I am still iterating on this and Budweiser hasn't updated his guide yet, I might add a section with my personal approach later once I have iterated on it enough to be confident that it's generic enough.

    *edit fixed copy/paste alignment errors
    *edit added TODO
    *edit added Shoshone OP initial save

    Attached Files:

  2. Deau

    Deau Emperor

    Apr 17, 2011
    Quebec, Can
    Some Number Crunching / understanding tourism output and GM strength calculation.

    There are 3 layers to tourism that I will respectively name raw, base and civ total.
    The first layer, "raw" includes everything generates +TPT. This can be further broken down into great works, theming bonuses, tile improvements(incl landmarks)/wonders/natural wonders bonuses.
    The second layer, "base" adds the multiplier bonuses that are inherent to your own cities or your own empire. GM tourism strength is calculated from this "base" number.
    The third layer, "civ total", adds the multiplier bonuses to each civ. This includes OB, Diplomats, Shared religion, Shared ideology, Trade routes.

    First Layer
    Each GW is worth 2. It is improved to 3 with Hotels, to 4 with Airports and to 6 TPT in capital from NVC (national visitor center). This means that if, somehow, you went deep Piety and took the "can buy any GP with faith" reformation bonus and eventually ended up not completely filling the aesthetics tree, putting GW in your capital at the cost of other cities' theming bonuses will grant more TPT. Particularly more if you have enacted your religion. In general, at least on deity, you won't get to hard build wonders with GW slots in your satellite cities and if you have a GE, it's obviously best to build it in the capital.

    Theming bonuses are worth 1 TPT per GW slot. There is some twist where the louvre can achieve a partial bonus and only provide +2. I have not seen it on other wonders. This bumps up to *2 with either completing aesthetic tree or playing as France or *3 with both. (if anyone has a late game save as napoleon, I actually need to verify that the bonuses are additive as with most other % based bonuses in the game)

    Landmarks/World Wonders/Tile improvements/Natural Wonders
    Each culture point provided by any of the above is worth 0 until hotels to which it shifts to .5 and up to 1 TPT per CPT with airports. As with GW scaling, the NVC improves this to 2 TPT per CPT. This give a strong edge to France that can simply spam chateaus on all tiles just a few turns before the Internet to offset badluck on wonders are to improve the odds of catching up a runaway with just the GMs coming shortly after.

    Second Layer
    City bonuses or empire bonuses.

    The Internet empire wide +100%.
    WC religion Capital bonus +50%
    T3 Freedom tenet broadcast towers +34% in each city
    International game first place +100% for 20 turns
    Brazil's UA +100% for the golden age duration

    All of these bonuses, even the empire-wide bonuses like The Internet are calculated at the city-level and are additive. All these bonuses are applied before GM calculation. The number at the top of the interface includes any such modifier. Which is the same as saying that your GM power will be 10* whatever is listed at the top of your screen. Not that end-of-turns occur in sequence and that Great Persons are calculated and born BEFORE science. Thus, if you time a GM to pop the same turn The Internet is teched, you won't receive the tech bonus on that GM. It has to pop the turn after.

    Third Layer
    Targeted civ dependant bonuses. These are to be seen in the culture overview tab - influence by player subtab.

    +25% bonus for Open Borders
    +25% bonus for Shared Religion*
    +34% For shared Ideology/ -34% for different ideology
    +25% for trade routes between the civs
    +25% propaganda from diplomats

    +50% tourism when at war with a common for (Autocracy T3 tenet)
    +34% tourism to other order civs (order tenet - it basically double dibs the shared ideology bonus)
    +34% tourism to civs that have less happiness (order tenet)

    Do not get duped in thinking that autocracy/order provide more tourism than freedom as not only is the +34% from broadcast towers guaranteed as it is within your empire, but it also enhances your GM power as it is in the second layer of tourism calculation.

    *The 25% bonus for shared religion disappears once a religion has been enacted as World Religion. However, this does not mean that enacting is weak. For this 25% bonus to apply, the 2 civs capitals need to share the same religion (as a dominant religion). Thus, on a typical 8 civ map with 5 religion, it means that you will really only get the 25% bonus on at best 3 other civs whereas the enacted 50% applies abroad to all 7 enemy civs.

    Each of these bonuses are additive with each other but are multiplicative with the base tourism (thus multiplicative with second layer %scales). However, they have no impact whatsoever on the power of GMs.

    Discussion on the numbers
    What does the above numbers mean strategy wise?

    It means that strictly from the point of view of maxing TPT from GMs immediately after The Internet, freedom is far superior because both the +4 from landmarks and the 34% from broadcast tower apply to raw and base tourism and thus boost GM output. However, from a turn-to-victory min/maxing perspective, Order will typically provide an earlier turn-to the internet and thus better turn-to-victory. It requires the player to have basically been wonder spamming though to offset the loss of GM strength and thus is not recommended as the generic strategy in the guide.

    It means that enacting a religion can significantly offset having had a game in terms of wonders built. (284%/234%-100%) = 21.4%. Let's numb it down to 20% or so since it only applies to the capital raw tourism, this means that enacting your religion will increase your late game tourism/GM strength by 20%. Sadly, if +3 culture per wonder was enacted super early, it make it extremely hard for a player with very few wonders to eventually catch up as then its late game TPT is capped much lower than if he had spammed wonders, even if he manages to enact his religion.

    It also helps answering questions like what wonders are essential and can I pull this off if I missed a big one. Let's take what I consider to be "the basic setup". That is, the player builds Sistine, Uffizi, Louvre in the capital and no other wonder. Runs 3 city. Does not have access to cathedrals but fills out all of the GW/GA or artifact slots and does not produce a single GM in the early game to save them for late game runaways.

    Worst case wonder scenario TPT - NO THEMING BONUSES.
    Assume roughly 3 landmarks none of which are within capital 3 tiles range (so they only get +100% bonus and not NVC)

    3 cities
    all museum filled with artifacts
    Essential wonders
    Sistine 2 GW +1 base cpt
    Uffizi 3 GW +2 base cpt
    Louvre 4 GW +2 base cpt

    museum 2 GW
    Amphitheater 1 GW (w)
    Palace 1 GW
    Oxford 2 GW (w)
    Nat Epic 1 GW (w)
    Heroic epic 1 GW (w)
    Hermitage 3 GW

    3 cities total
    capital has 20 GW for 120 total base +28 base from wonder culture (with +3 culture per wonder enacted)

    satellite cities together have
    6 gw for 24 total + 30 base from landmarks

    Grand total raw
    after 134% bonus (no enacted religion)
    416 TPT (base).

    This is fairly low. Typically, in fact especially if the +3 culture per wonder or +2 culture per settled GP/+4 per landmark have been enacted early (effectively creating some runaways), this won't be enough to overcome the deficit to "culture runaways" with 4 GMs (one pop, 3 from faith) and thus will require some GnK style "spam next turn" as well as a few additional GMs from GPP to close the game. If you add "side wonders". Adding an enacted religion to the count bumps your base TPT to 505 which will be enough to finish most games where you reach the internet somewhere between T250-T265. If it goes on longer, since tourism must overcome game-long culture, you will either have to do some spam next turn or attempt to achieve slightly higher TPT.

    With about 600 base TPT @ the internet, one can be confident that 4 GMs will be enough to close the game. The only exception is, again, if cultural heritage was enacted around T150 or before because then the wonderful civs become one or a few runaways. It is extremely hard to counter proposals in the first 2 WCs and as a honest statement about CV, if cultural heritage is enacted first WC and the human player does not manage to wonder spam, it would be wise to change VC objective. 600 TPT can be achieved with the above + some theming bonuses + maybe 1-2 more random wonders with some + culture. Fairly easy ones to get are: Oracle (unless Mayans are on the map), Porcelain Tower (with -33% to scientists/ge/gm enacted early, most civs tend not to take rationalism), Big Ben (it costs 1 SP but it tends to be leftover somewhat late so it can give an extra way out to the desperate human player. I don't recommend it however), Status of Liberty (very easy, rarely more than 1 competitor and typically its one of the later civs techwise) Eiffel Tower (this one tends to hurt diplomacy a little bit though). Cristo Redentor or Neuschwanstein.

    Why is religion so important even when you don't have enough CS allies to enact it in the late game? Any faith beyond the 5k for 3 GM can be spent on GEs to catch either the few harder to get wonders (namely catching both Uffizi and the Louvre can be a pain without any GE. Especially if you have not yet made it to 1st or 2nd in tech) by architechture). As a matter of fact, If you delay all GMs until after the Internet, your 2nd GPP GM will kick in about 10 turns after the first and one could consider reallocating 2500 faith to purchase a 3rd GM into 2 GEs in the industrial/modern era. One for the louvre and another one, probably for Eiffel or Cristo Redentor. The raw tourism difference between Eiffel and cristo redentor is of only 4 because of the double dib TPT per CPT from NVC in the capital so SP timing might justify using a GE on CR over Eiffel.

    An additional reason to get a religion is that it allows you to produce GPs and thus also to settle GPs. This means a few additional tiles possibly producing +2 culture (effectively +4 raw tourism in the capital) from that WC resolution. It also means that it is much easier to produce the necessary total faith between settled GPs, +4 faith per settled GP from freedom tenet and the +8 FPT provided by the Grand Temple. Last, it lets you pick capital-centric follower bonuses to help your few city-tall game (RC, swords into plowshare, Divine Inspiration, Religious Art). Finally, it gives you an additional way out if you failed miserably at wonders by filling out the piety tree for typically an additional +24 raw tourism (as much as what the Louvre produces pre theming bonus) from ~ 4 settled GP. It is not the recommended path because of the SP competition but can be a solution for slow games (games that would end beyond T300).

    Is it still possible to produce 5k faith over ~100 turns or so for 3 faith GMs without a faith? Short answer is yes. Long answer is it requires you to get Patronage/Consulates early to get the faith from CSs to compound early. However, it more or less requires you to befriend these CSs and begin to pile FPT from shrine/temple as soon as the 5th religion was founded (as since you can't produce GPs randomly anymore, you can begin to pile up rather than only be able to pile up shortly before industrial era). It also means that you will need to put considerable CS effort into allying faith CSs as opposed to simply befriending them. Sadly, unlike going for 5th religion, it neither gives you a capital-centric religion nor nearly as much risk-control. Befriending/allying 4 faith CSs isn't too hard if there are 4 faith CSs on the map. However, if there are fewer or if Ghengis decided to raid them all, you are put in a situation where you might want to go for a different VC whereas catching 5th religion prevents that.

    But then how can I achieve 5th religion? It seems so hard when I can't get a FPT pantheon.
    Indeed it is but here is an opener that will allow you to get pantheon + 200 faith somewhere between T70-T75 in order to pop 4th or 5th religion before T80. It does NOT guarantee a religion. In some maps where 2 of (Ethiopia, Byzantium, Maya, Celts), the 5th religion will go before T70. I've spent all of last week iterating over this and I would say that I managed to catch 5th religion in roughly 75% of the games. Sadly, it slows the opener slightly more than a regular full trad opener and thus if you chose to take that path and miss 5th religion, you should discard CV and aim for either diplo or science from that point on...or simply reroll.

    The opener
    Steal 1-2 worker from preferably a nearby AI, worst case scenario from a CS. You will need to improve at least one luxury somewhere between T35-40.
    BO - scout - monument (if culture ruin was poped by the warrior, do a 2nd scout) - shrine - granary - settler*

    * if your capital has 4 +2h tiles that can be worked, shift to settler after shrine, as soon as cap is size 4+. However, since most capitals will be settled near mostly food tiles, completing the granary will often result in 1-2 more hammers for settler building. The objective is to attempt to get settler built in 8-10 turns. Note that if your capital has no 3f tile access at all and no wheat/deer to compound from the granary, it delays the timing just enough to reduce the success rate to 40-50% :(

    SP order
    If you hard build the monument, SP order is trad opener -> piety opener -> Organized Religion -> Regular full trad
    If you picked 20 culture ruin early, SP order is trad opener -> Legalism -> Piety opener -> Organized Religion -> Regular full trad

    Tech order is
    Pottery -> Lux techs -> beeline philosophy.

    As soon as philosophy is completed, shift your build in capital and 2nd city to Temple, focusing production. If you had managed to get 500g and bought 3rd settler early enough to get a shrine up, you can skip building the temple in the 2nd city as it will generally finish building it somewhere between T65-T75. anyway.

    I will eventually provide additional details with a game example as to what to build "between" first settler and temple but it is highly dependant on the map and rng. Rule of the thumb is library if I have no neighbor within 10 tiles of either my 2 cities, caravan otherwise to help speed up the first DoF, get more BPT than the library and some GPT probably to bribe a warmongerer neighbor against a different civ, a 3rd settler if I need to claim land asap and am already happiness capped to grow but expect to improve luxuries in the mean time, worker otherwise unless I somehow magically stole 4 workers already. Rarely, I will build an archer not so much for defense as this is what bribing is for but in order to catch a few CS quests. Particularly culture/faith CSs (culture to reduce the impact of delaying tradition completion by going piety).
  3. Deau

    Deau Emperor

    Apr 17, 2011
    Quebec, Can
  4. Deau

    Deau Emperor

    Apr 17, 2011
    Quebec, Can
    For those looking for some SSs

    Spoiler :

  5. Taegost

    Taegost Chieftain

    Jul 9, 2013
    Tampa Bay, Fl
    I'm curious, why is it a mistake to start working towards GMs ASAP? That to me seems counter-intuitive, as you can just save them until you get the appropriate techs, then pop them at that time.
  6. BuilderFTW

    BuilderFTW Warlord

    Aug 8, 2011
    The GM's tourism bump is based off of the tourism when the GM is created. So ideally you would want to save as many GM as possible for after the internet so that you double the effectiveness of their concert tour.
  7. glory7

    glory7 King

    Nov 6, 2012
    nice guide! I tend to beeline archaelogy and refrig (and ratio) for CVs, but printing press to get pisa sounds good too. In my games, usually AIs hit printing press really early and get globe and pisa fairly early.
  8. glory7

    glory7 King

    Nov 6, 2012
    and I delay GM until I get telecom ("national hotel") and internet. Having broadway theme bonus would be nice, but I prefer to build eiffel at cap and focus on teching fast.

    Another point: it seemed to me that AIs get religion really fast and without faith NW or good pantheon (DF, gem faith one, for example) it was difficult to get a religion (compared to GnK).
  9. terrycrist3

    terrycrist3 Chieftain

    Dec 5, 2009
    Any thoughts as to which Civs are best suited for this strategy? France would appear to be the obvious choice, but I wonder if their cultural bonuses are really more valuable than the science from Babylon/Korea.
  10. Taegost

    Taegost Chieftain

    Jul 9, 2013
    Tampa Bay, Fl
    Ahh ok, that makes perfect sense to me. Thanks!
  11. bradeh

    bradeh Chieftain

    Jul 14, 2013
    Great guide. Openings are what makes these strategies work, so would be nice to know some ideas.
  12. adwcta

    adwcta King

    Dec 8, 2012
    New York City, USA
    For openers, Tradition going with Aesthetics next, I find it much better to have the earlier hammers by letting the SP pop the monument, instead of building monument first to get the next cultural building. Same upkeep cost now, and with Aesthetics, you don't save that many hammers even. Early hammers >> later hammers.

    Other than that, I'm sure it really depends on the start. The key is to get to Architecture before anyone else, so that you can build all three wonders followed by Hermitage. As long as you can hit that breakpoint, I think there's an argument to be made for delaying the NC and getting Oracle first (or, if you need to defend yourself early, to go the bottom path w/ composite bows and get Great Wall). Oracle's AI priority got bumped up in BNW, so it's not always a guarantee now to get after the NC. This also allows you to expand quicker and get aqueducts quicker, which is quicker growth and more science, and you have a better 2nd city and an extra weapon against barbs.

    Agree that Oracle > Parthenon going by feel.

    Also, cultural runaways tend to like peace, so they will be more partial to joining an Ideology than starting their own. This also means Order > Freedom if you are first to found Ideology and can keep your happiness up (or sabotage the happiness of culture runaways via refusing to trade them your luxes, taking away their CSs, and embargoing) by providing a 2x tourism bonus.
  13. milk steak

    milk steak Warlord

    Sep 17, 2010
    I read somewhere that if all your Archaeologists in one AI's borders complete a dig and produce an artifact in the same turn, you will get only 1 diplo hit while being able to retain every dug up artifact in that AI's borders.
  14. Deau

    Deau Emperor

    Apr 17, 2011
    Quebec, Can
    As builderftw has pointed out, the great concert strength is calculated at spawn and not punctually when used. I simply want to point out that GS are the same now with BnW. This is a fairly big change with GnK and encourages you to use them immediately, whether settle or bulb is optimal.

    I can't speak for most games yet but in my morocco game, I was the one to initiate the world congress upon teching PP and that alone was worth picking it earlier than later. On top of that, whenever I have a decent religion potential, especially with pilgrimage, I tend to chose RT over other enhancer beliefs giving even more weight to PP. Last, and this is only my current experience, Pisa has been fairly achievable hard build. In both games, I hit education around T110-115, beelined PP and got Pisa "somewhat" smoothly. In the Shoshone game, I built it in my second satellite cities which took between 15-20 turns to build. However, in that game, I kept AIs always at least in one war via bribes (mostly for self defense) so it might have impacted AI wonder building.

    I generally use the Pisa GE for Uffizi and skip globe theater. If I am already first in tech, I might consider GE bulb globe theater and hard build Uffizi if the capital has outstanding production.

    Yes, that is one of the risk of culture victory more than other VC because of the +50%tourism scale from the WC resolution. It is still achievable without a religion or without enacting your religion although it still kinda requires you to have very high FPT production. Thus, I would probably give my open borders for free or almost to the "best nearby religion founder civ" to get spread for both his pantheon and, especially preferably, some mosques. Ally faith CSs asap and settle GPs if you have to. 3 settled GPs pre industrial will produce 30 FPT on their own comes that tenet that gives them +4 so the 5k mark is still reasonably achievable, just significantly more painful. I would expect a non-religious CV.

    As I noted above, I will try to write a guide to opening. Sadly, "openers" are worth a thread on their own and are even more now than ever before, very situational. For instance, if I have no AI within trade route distance, I will generally consider hard building a settler very early in the game, even as trad to settle closer to an AI to get 2 caravans out asap and just to let the AI trade to me because they are kind like that. It is very common that I get 15 BPT from trades(2 out 2 in) with an immediate neighbor at a time my empire produces less than that on its own. It is the backbone of catching up early in tech. This is highly situational though.

    I'm going to have to disagree with rushing aesthetics right out of tradition. Not that it is bad but besides the opener for GPP and uffizi, there is really no rush in getting deep into that tree. You will want the first policy to the left slightly before archeology to hard build amph/OH/museums real fast in your satellite cities so that they can host more artifacts but everything else can reasonably be delayed.

    Improving your science ASAP is most definitely more important as it will allow you to hard build some wonders which you otherwise won't have enough GEs to build unless you produce like 150 FPT and can afford 3-4 fait GEs on top of the 3 late game GMs. Scholasticism and, especially, ratiolaism opener+secularism (above all else) will help you achieve that.

    The statement about order possibly being better freedom lacks understanding of how multiplicative bonuses apply to the late game GMs. Since the freedom bonus comes from a building, it improves the raw TPT output of your cities aka your "base" output effectively contributing to your GMs. The order policy, however, does not as it is a civ dependant modifier. In the very case of my Shoshone game above, the broadcast tower bonus 34%, in my capital alone was giving me 339*.34=115 TPT (+4+5 from the 2 satellite cities) so going freedom instead of order gave me about 5k GM power (~125TPT*10turns equivalent*4GMs). Also, the +4 culture to landmarks affects the "BASE" output whereas the other happiness based bonus in order is also civ dependant. Long story short, if you aim to play the op GM build, freedom >>> order.
  15. Deau

    Deau Emperor

    Apr 17, 2011
    Quebec, Can
    Well, I am only up to 2 completed games at the moment but if you reset map until you get a FPT pantheon capable start, then Babylon and Korea are definitely the best civs available. Most of the game happens immediately after The Internet and with growing super tall cities comes working significantly more than just 2-3 GS specialists so I would tend to favor Korea well above Babylon. Just as always though, Babylon UA will get you to education and especially to PP earlier effectively snowballing you to hard built wonders.

    Besides science focused civs I would have to say that T1 civs for this VC are
    Poland, Ethiopia,
    Shoshone(I suspect they will be the new Ethiopia of BnW as they provide SO much control over your opener p.s. starting on T20, you can chose +20 faith from huts. Once you have a pantheon, you can chose +60 faith to get the first or second religion easily THIS is OP for all VC genre),
    Arabia (especially if you tweak the strat to go piety as you can pretty much chose what pantheon you want to steal for your capital. This can mean a FPT generator early in the game and a CPT->tourism generator as you get closer to the Internet).
    Brazil - a well timed golden age can offset no religion or poor hammer bias (fewer wonders) as it SHOULD(tdb) apply to your GM output.
    Pacal even more now than before since the GP costs are split so the "bad" GPs don't hurt your strategy nearly as much as it did in GnK.

    I'm not quite able to really put an order to the above list as it somewhat also depends on whether start bias should be taken into consideration or if you are a very patient player for that perfect start.

    I would love to see that in the xml files but I have not messed with modding at all for civ5 so I will wait for someone to check it out and confirm ^^. The penalty definitely did not feel huge. However, I lost an open border partner after stealing 2 artifacts. There may just have been some other diplo penalties causing it though.
  16. Deau

    Deau Emperor

    Apr 17, 2011
    Quebec, Can
    Additional note about the Shoshone.

    I opened hard building a second UU and DoWed maria Theresa around T10 to steal a worker. I eventually sent them both back scouting and they eventually both ended up as CBs. Around T30, I went back near maria's border to check for another worker steal before asking for peace because I was to settle my second city (and typically AIs ask for your new city if its settled when you asked for peace). I killed one of her warriors in 2 turns and the next turn, she offered me cotton+4gpt for peace. I had never had such a peace treaty, this early in the game, without it being caused by another AI attacking the same civ ever before. That's how OP 2 CBs were...
  17. Buccaneer

    Buccaneer Deity

    Nov 2, 2001
    Thank you for posting this. Once I get done with my current game, I'll have a better feel and understanding of the changes and then I'll be able to appreciate guides like this.
  18. Tabarnak

    Tabarnak Cut your lousy hairs!

    Sep 17, 2010
    Thanks for the guide Deau :goodjob:

    Haven't played culturally yet, i'm still focusing on early turns. I played a whole game once to see the general things but i'm still obsessed about great starts :p

    I'm close of putting a Trad openers thread in a few days. Some elements have to be determined in which case of X to happen and Y, Z, etc.

    I hope that this cultural thread will be a great extension of the openers i will propose...soon.

    Spoiler :
    Long story short, i'm focusing on 2 openers. 1 peaceful(food focused) and 1 with a CB rush. Later i will make a mp approach, once i will get into some games(still playing sp)
  19. Deau

    Deau Emperor

    Apr 17, 2011
    Quebec, Can
    Je passe aussi beaucoup trop de temps sur l'opener, ça en est gênant.

    Off to relevant comments people can understand. Has people been successful with CB rush at all yet with GnK? I tried that a bit on day1 and threw the towel for the moment. It felt like the early gold gap is delaying CB rush just enough to make it extremely weak.

    If at all possible within your trad guide, I suggest you discuss "hybrid" openers with a 2-3 SP detour either in liberty or piety. I expected it would be a decent alternative to offset the harsh starts but up to now, it has always felt like 3 SP outside trad delayed aqueducts far too much and that 2 SP outside (like piety opener and fpt increase from buildings) didn't payback nearly enough for the slight delay on trad as I just didn't have enough hammers or gpt to spare for the shrines.
  20. Moriarte

    Moriarte Immortal

    May 10, 2012
    You mean BNW, right?

    Spoiler :

    It isn't easy though. The warmongering hate is a real pain to overcome, and once you're in it, there is hardly a way out, so no trades and it just escalates, slowly. Once you start taking cities, even if you haven't started the war, they end up hating you.

    Two successful DD games so far: t.239, and t.25#, I don't remember, both involved full liberty, full commerce (the only reliable source of happiness). And 2 losses followed.

    On one hand, it's kind of reliable, when you start with military rush, secure some land, resources, then slowly tech up, even out, turn your promoted units into beasts and make the final push. On the other hand, this opening made me lose my last two games. At turn 200 I discovered that my 500 beakers puts me 12% behind Washington and his 20 cities aren't getting smaller. Besides, he had 20k in his pockets, so .. Anyway, it is no way suitable for a culture game ... I guess. :)

    By the way, thanks for the guide on culture, surely will be helpful to many of us.

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