Deity Game

Raliuven · Apr 11, 2011

Okay, I finally decided to stop being lazy and try to tackle my first Deity game. I felt pretty solid on Emperor and I am getting to the point where I feel the AI is moving too slow.

I jumped up to Deity and stomped on the breaks. I almost always play the game I am given by the computer and rarely find myself in a tight spot. I try not to reroll bad starts because - hey, how better to learn?

I loaded my first game - and it was terrible. I ended up loading 15 games that I started out on before I decided I couldn't win them and I probably scanned 45-60 more games before picking out the best 15.

Is this normal or am I just experiencing growing pains? I have PTW and I decided to go with the Ottomans - Industrial and Scientific. I set my enemy list - which I also never do - and made sure there were no scientific AIs and no industrial AIs. I like the Ottomans for the good UU and it is timed well for a cavalry conquest.

I played with other settings and settled on a standard arch game with 70% water (middle setting).

It was not until the 15th game that I actually felt I had a chance. The biggest shock was all the bonus units the AI receives - my gambit to start granary first for a quick expansion fell flat a half-dozen times before I started pumping out military to ward off the AI.

At this point I am on a descent sized island and I have the Mongols on the ropes. I have iron and horses - they have none. I've basically turned off science and I'm buying my techs, which seems okay for now. I also have a fair number of luxuries in my immediate area.

So, is this normal? I know I don't have any pictures posted, but any general tips or thoughts?

The Professor · Apr 11, 2011

You might want to try having a few less than the standard number of opponents for your first couple of games at this level. The AI gets an extra settler, which puts it solidly ahead on expansion, so giving yourself a little extra room to grow is handy. I would also recommend picking a start with settler factory potential, so that you can use it to keep up with expansion. I frequently use a start that looks like warrior-warrior-settler-granary, and hopefully by the time the granary has finished, my worker has the settler factory ready, and my second city can produce some units.

Spoonwood · Apr 11, 2011

You have to get to use to playing from behind. I recall that when I first moved up (on Conquests), I got behind and felt like I had no chance, and just gave up. I look back now, and think I might have had a chance, but I just didn't know how to read the situation very well.

GamezRule · Apr 12, 2011

Post a save?

Raliuven · Apr 12, 2011

Will do. I didn't have time last night - wife's birthday and all. I may be a Civ Fanatic, but I know where to draw the line. Sometimes.

This is PTW that is patched to the current version. Barbs are on because I am warming up for the GOTM and they always use barbs. I know my first time out would be easier without barbs for this level, but I'm going hard core. :lol:

I made some progress last night. I definately have the Mongols on the list of 'soon to be extinct'. I picked up 3 GLs - one for an army and the HP is built, a second for the FP in the middle of Mongol country - I actually used it on their former capital. They were using RCP5 for the 1st ring - seems a bit wide for such a small land mass? The 3rd was used to rush Sun's. I did that because I am hoping for more leaders and it was all there was left to rush. As it turns out, it wasn't a bad thing - I built Suns and it cascaded to Sistines and Leos. I think that killed the cascades around the world - I think musical theory isn't around yet.

I am actually surprised by the GLs - the Mongols are throwing a lot of units at me and it is really nice for leader fishing. I have read many stories and was bracing myself for impact. Of course this is nothing like the waves I've read about, but it is not like waiting for a few units to straggle by so you can take a wack at them.

I've started up research with library and market builds now that I have a second core and I am hoping to start leading the tech pace. I thought I might try to steal a tech or two once the Mongols are dead and I can risk another war.

I made the move to Monarchy because that is all I am able to get my hands on for now. I might trade up for Democracy later if it is available and makes sense. I know that most experienced players only make one switch. I had a 6 turn anarchy too, which sucked.

Another nice thing is the luxuries - I have plenty of silks and furs to trade - and soon I will have a bunch of gems to trade too. :lol:

I'll post the save and a few pictures tonight. Save for sure. Pictures if I can remember how to use photo bucket!

**Edit** my photobucket is out of order for tonight, but here is the save!

Raliuven · Apr 13, 2011

I played some more - 710 AD. Mongols are dead, I'm claiming territory against the Aztecs and Japan currently - Aztecs are my next target.

Turn Log 320AD - 710 AD

Spoiler :

Spoonwood · Apr 13, 2011

How do you want to win?

Raliuven · Apr 13, 2011

Spoonwood said:
How do you want to win?

My VC is domination but I will keep conquest and diplo as possible alternative VCs depending on how things go (conquest if they are going well, diplo if they are not). Honestly I thought I was going to get pummelled so I originally was aiming for a diplo victory - secure my island and ward of the fierce AI, pump research, trade heavy, grab the UN with a pre-build or a stored GL and grab the victory.

Only as the game progressed, I started to feel that I really have a chance at taking out some of the AIs and I went off course and started leaning towards domination.

My big choice at this moment, as I see it, is if I intend to stay with domination, I will remain in Monarchy for the rest of the game. If I am going to switch gear for diplo (or I suppose space race is possible) then I will need to switch to democracy, preferrably before I trigger my GA.

Note - I goofed and busted my rep while fighting the Mongols - that was stupid because it is making trade a bit harder and I usually try to avoid that. IIRC, I don't think I have razed any cities. I have not abused any ROP deals (actually, I never sign ROP, so no issue there).

Optional · Apr 14, 2011

I had a look at your 320AD save, will probably have a look at the other one as well, but one save at a time!

I'm seriously surprised there aren't more units here for a Deity game! You've got roughly 40 military units and you're average to quite a few of the other civs. That's strikes me as highly unusual. Research seems to be very slow as well. It's an archipelago, that explains something, but then still I think this is slow.

You're on the offensive against the Mongols, yet besides your capital none of your cities is making units. Normally that's a recipe for failure on Deity, but here you'll probably get away with it, and that one army will make a big difference.
On this level you have to make a choice between war and research, or maybe culture. Where on Emperor it is still quite easy to combine these different objectives, on a higher level that doesn't work anymore, and you have to go one way or the other. What I mean is that if you want to go for research, only max research will do, and for successful campaigns you will need to devote most of your empire to unit-building.

Here you're on 80% research - 20% is needed for lux - but you're a Monarchy. That could put you in the tech lead on Emperor, but on Deity this normally would get you nowhere. Personally I'm actually fine with Monarchy in the early MA for a research game. MP allows for bigger towns and this somewhat offsets the lack of a commerce bonus. And some military action at this stage to get bigger will enhance your research base, which will make it easier to keep up with the AI. Monarchy is fine for this type of expansion. Later in the MA a government with commerce bonus becomes crucial for research, the extra lux that you should have available by then can end your reliance on MP. Most players don't like to switch twice, and it's obviously a drawback, but I think sometimes you're better off with a second switch. Oh, count on longer anarchy times at higher levels, 6 turns is sort of average for this level; it could have been worse.
What I'm seeing in your 320AD save is that you could have focused on expansion more, not just outwardly, but also inwardly. What I mean with expanding inwardly is that I'm seeing so many unused tiles within your empire. That's a bit of a shame, so a few more towns could have been popped in or existing towns made bigger.
But those islands to the south-east you could probably have colonized by now if you had devoted yourself to settler-building more. Instead you're building markets, they have a function, but I don't think I would have built them now with so many opportunities for expansion still around.

One can see in certain details that you're not yet familiar with this level. What you really shouldn't be doing anymore is keeping your foreign citizens alive! I see that in Karakorum 6 of the 7 inhabitants are Mongol, this'll give you problems. Already on Emperor it's often best to starve foreign citizens because of the unhappiness. On higher levels the problems get compounded by the extra culture AI civs have developed, so citizens resist more and flip chances are higher. Many players even raze straight away. This game is just not a typical Deity game, so it's not so bad here, but you should still have starved those citizens, unless it's an ethical code you're using here, like not wanting to be cruel towards innocent citizens - I would fully understand the use of a role-playing element like that.
But your micro-management could be a little better. Istanbul is making +7 food; it can't use that food, but you can use a few more mines instead. 14 spt is a knight every 5 turns, your current 13 spt is just one short of that, so you have every reason to turn an irrigation into a mine, assuming you'll continue to build knights.
In other towns I see similar issues. Decent micro-management does become important on higher levels.

I see a lot of positives as well, though. You've explored most of the map, which is good, 26 workers looks like a sufficient amount considering the size of your empire, and your military units are almost exclusively of the offensive kind - no hoarding of spears here. No artillery though; you would miss those if there's to be more military action.

I assume you don't have Conquests? The step from Emperor to Deity is rather steep. In Conquest the difficulty goes Emperor > Demigod > Deity > Sid; more steps. If you had Conquests you could have gone Demigod. Personally I found the step from Emperor to Demigod already quite steep. The extra settler the AI gets makes a huge difference on its own, other bonuses multiply.
I personally never went higher than Demigod, to be frank. Civilization III is basically balanced for levels Regent, Monarch and Emperor; that's when the game is at its best. The things you need to do on the highest levels to compensate for the huge AI bonuses are making the game less attractive for me.
You probably know that an Archipelago drops the level, don't you? The AI is not good with sea maps. In Conquests you have the seafaring trait, which, if you were to take that trait, would make an island map even easier. I don't know if the £5 that a Civ III complete costs these days would be an obstacle for you, but having the extra expansion would enhance your options with regards to difficulty.
What you also could consider - if you would like a step inbetween Emperor and Deity - is to change some settings in your main game file. I often did that myself when I went a level up, like taking a few of the AI's starting units away, or to slightly adjust their trading advantage, to make the adjustment easier. Not everybody likes to meddle with the main file, though.

I'll probably not have to time to look at your other save later on, but perhaps tomorrow, if nobody else chimes in.

Raliuven · Apr 14, 2011

Optional -

I really appreciate your critique. I have been feeling exactly what you are describing. I have played until about 1200 AD and I feel that things are starting to fall apart on me. I think I can still pull out a win, but the going has become very tough.

Optional said:
I had a look at your 320AD save, will probably have a look at the other one as well, but one save at a time!

I'm seriously surprised there aren't more units here for a Deity game! You've got roughly 40 military units and you're average to quite a few of the other civs. That's strikes me as highly unusual. Research seems to be very slow as well. It's an archipelago, that explains something, but then still I think this is slow.

You're on the offensive against the Mongols, yet besides your capital none of your cities is making units. Normally that's a recipe for failure on Deity, but here you'll probably get away with it, and that one army will make a big difference.
On this level you have to make a choice between war and research, or maybe culture. Where on Emperor it is still quite easy to combine these different objectives, on a higher level that doesn't work anymore, and you have to go one way or the other. What I mean is that if you want to go for research, only max research will do, and for successful campaigns you will need to devote most of your empire to unit-building.]

I think the only reason I got away with this is that the Mongols didn't have iron or horses and they had no way to trade for them in the early game.

Here you're on 80% research - 20% is needed for lux - but you're a Monarchy. That could put you in the tech lead on Emperor, but on Deity this normally would get you nowhere. Personally I'm actually fine with Monarchy in the early MA for a research game. MP allows for bigger towns and this somewhat offsets the lack of a commerce bonus. And some military action at this stage to get bigger will enhance your research base, which will make it easier to keep up with the AI. Monarchy is fine for this type of expansion. Later in the MA a government with commerce bonus becomes crucial for research, the extra lux that you should have available by then can end your reliance on MP. Most players don't like to switch twice, and it's obviously a drawback, but I think sometimes you're better off with a second switch. Oh, count on longer anarchy times at higher levels, 6 turns is sort of average for this level; it could have been worse.

I thought I was catching up against the AI, but when they breezed into the IA they left me behind even though I am the scientific Civ. I may be regaining some ground because they wasted time with the nationalism, Communism, Espionage route - I got a monopoly on Medicine as my free tech and bee-lined to sanitation which I knew would be good, thinking I could trade for steam power. But the AI would not budge. I researched that and I have made my way to Scientific Method - got there at about the same time as Arabia - which is becoming a monster. I think I'll pull out ToE with a pre-build, but Arabia has been snatching up every wonder on the board. I am starting to think that I should turn off research and steal what I want. But now I would need to sell my libraries and universities or at least build banks.

What I'm seeing in your 320AD save is that you could have focused on expansion more, not just outwardly, but also inwardly. What I mean with expanding inwardly is that I'm seeing so many unused tiles within your empire. That's a bit of a shame, so a few more towns could have been popped in or existing towns made bigger.
But those islands to the south-east you could probably have colonized by now if you had devoted yourself to settler-building more. Instead you're building markets, they have a function, but I don't think I would have built them now with so many opportunities for expansion still around.

I always worry about settling islands I can't defend. THe AI always attacks those with way more than I can afford to garrison.

I was going for a looser spacing so that my cities could grow, but I'm definitely with you here. I criticized the Mongols for their RCP5 but I didn't do much better.

One can see in certain details that you're not yet familiar with this level. What you really shouldn't be doing anymore is keeping your foreign citizens alive! I see that in Karakorum 6 of the 7 inhabitants are Mongol, this'll give you problems. Already on Emperor it's often best to starve foreign citizens because of the unhappiness. On higher levels the problems get compounded by the extra culture AI civs have developed, so citizens resist more and flip chances are higher. Many players even raze straight away. This game is just not a typical Deity game, so it's not so bad here, but you should still have starved those citizens, unless it's an ethical code you're using here, like not wanting to be cruel towards innocent citizens - I would fully understand the use of a role-playing element like that.

No, nothing like that. I know this, but I didn't really know this. I've used it at time on Emperor, but it is rarely a necessity. The Mongols were such pushovers that I didn't think it would be necessary. As it turns out, I got away with it because they never flipped, but I am having problems with my Japanese conquests. Raze and replace (or starve) seems the way to go. I'm with you.

But your micro-management could be a little better. Istanbul is making +7 food; it can't use that food, but you can use a few more mines instead. 14 spt is a knight every 5 turns, your current 13 spt is just one short of that, so you have every reason to turn an irrigation into a mine, assuming you'll continue to build knights.
In other towns I see similar issues. Decent micro-management does become important on higher levels.

I'm with you here as well. I like to MM, but my major flaw is that when the game heats up, I drop the ball. I'm off roading or mining a useless mountain tile I'll probably never be able to use rather than tending to my core.

I see a lot of positives as well, though. You've explored most of the map, which is good, 26 workers looks like a sufficient amount considering the size of your empire, and your military units are almost exclusively of the offensive kind - no hoarding of spears here. No artillery though; you would miss those if there's to be more military action.

Thank you and noted.

I assume you don't have Conquests? The step from Emperor to Deity is rather steep. In Conquest the difficulty goes Emperor > Demigod > Deity > Sid; more steps. If you had Conquests you could have gone Demigod. Personally I found the step from Emperor to Demigod already quite steep. The extra settler the AI gets makes a huge difference on its own, other bonuses multiply.
I personally never went higher than Demigod, to be frank. Civilization III is basically balanced for levels Regent, Monarch and Emperor; that's when the game is at its best. The things you need to do on the highest levels to compensate for the huge AI bonuses are making the game less attractive for me.
You probably know that an Archipelago drops the level, don't you? The AI is not good with sea maps. In Conquests you have the seafaring trait, which, if you were to take that trait, would make an island map even easier. I don't know if the £5 that a Civ III complete costs these days would be an obstacle for you, but having the extra expansion would enhance your options with regards to difficulty.

No conquest - but you are right, the cost really isn't a barrier. I'm just playing what I've got. I should upgrade. I also knew from other articles that archipelago would make it easier, so that was a conscious choice. I am trying to put a check in the win column and to build confidence with this level.

I really appreciate everything you've said and I think its on the mark. Thanks!

agonistes · Apr 15, 2011

You have to get to use to playing from behind.

This is some choice advice. I have never played a deity game in which I did not have to come from behind. I can't imagine anyone ever has unless they had a some weird double-extra-settler start.

I also cannot recall a deity game in which I did not, fairly early in the game, swallow a medium-sized country that was roughly the same size as mine, thus doubling my size (and usually putting me at aprox. the same strength as the biggest boy on the block).

Thus, the deity games (for me) were usually way behind for a while, then a big gulp up to the front or close to the front.

Raliuven · Apr 15, 2011

I'll be honest - I'm having problems figuring out how it is even possible on a level like Sid. It must be an endless game of building military units with the rare marketplace or library shoved in edgewise.

I'm also learning the value of stealing techs - something I've never done out of necessity in any other game. I'm in the IA and it takes 15-20 turns to research anything. If I turn science off and save all that money I could attempt to steal 3-6 times in 20 turns depending on how careful I am being. The chances of pulling at least 1 tech for the effort seems pretty high, so its not much of a gamble. Of course, the gamble is a little bit of warring.

I'll post an update tonight with pictures. I'm at 1330AD - only Arabia, Celts, and a tiny fragment of Japan remain to oppose me. I am roughly the same size as Arabia and the Celts. Currently we are all at war with Arabia - Arabia picked a fight with me and Japan and I turned the Celts against them for Ivory.

I grabbed ToE and I am in the tech lead now - but for how long?

Raliuven · Apr 15, 2011

This is the state of things in 1330 AD. What I really need are armies. I am working on factories and Hoovers. After Istanbul is done with its factory, it will begin to produce armies and, hopefully, won't stop until I've won the game.

Here is my sparse turn log:

Spoiler :

Optional · Apr 16, 2011

I had promised to take another look at your your game, didn't I? Well, I had forgotten I needed to take a trip to Edinburgh yesterday, so it didn't happen.
And I'm a bit tired now, but still would like to respond to a few things that were brought up:

Raliuven said:
I always worry about settling islands I can't defend. THe AI always attacks those with way more than I can afford to garrison.

Oh, the AI has a real penchant for attacking islands, I know! You can even leave a lot of cities on your mainland empty and still the AI will go for your islands.
One technique that I don't know you've considered is to settle those islands CxC and put a unit on the x. You don't even need to put units in cities and you will still be safe until Marines. I'm not a fan of CxC, not at all, but islands are not suitable for building anyway - unless you put your Forbidden Palace there, which is actually quite conceivable in PTW, but I'm taking that as an exception.

agonistes said:
I have never played a deity game in which I did not have to come from behind. I can't imagine anyone ever has unless they had a some weird double-extra-settler start.

I also cannot recall a deity game in which I did not, fairly early in the game, swallow a medium-sized country that was roughly the same size as mine, thus doubling my size (and usually putting me at aprox. the same strength as the biggest boy on the block).

Yup, that's absolutely the typical story. It already is on Demigod. Sometimes, with the right civ and some luck you can still keep up with the early AI expansion on Demigod. A double extra settler start is of course unlikely, but not a complete freak. The chance of getting a free settler is highest on... Deity!

Raliuven said:
I'll be honest - I'm having problems figuring out how it is even possible [winning] on a level like Sid.

I lock myself up in the bathroom when Sid comes along! Lots of really good players here on the forums still find Sid an überchallenge. What is certainly needed is a profound knowledge of the game mechanics and exploitation of loopholes in the laws of the game. Some techniques I find really ugly, others I mind less, and of course you can always differ on what you find acceptable and what not.

But as soon as you come to a level where you start to play from behind - that starts waayyy before Sid - you need to adopt a different style.
I sometimes say that, where on modest levels you can play like a predator, you need to learn to play like a vulture on higher levels. A predator can build strength and crush its opponents. A vulture needs to use more cunning techniques. Let your opponents slug it out with each other first, watch them lose strength, then intervene at the right moment to pick up the pieces.
I remember in my first Demigod game I made an alliance to get my two strongest opponents to fight each other. It cost me some 40 or 50 gpt to make that alliance, more than what I was comfortable with, but I didn't have a tech to offer and felt I needed to do something against the supremacy of the Aztecs and the Germans. Although the loss of income set me back, it proved worth it in the end. Aztecs and Germany started to seriously weaken each other and I could at some stage enter this war. I don't think I could have expanded any other way.
With making alliances you need to be careful that you're not making an already strong civ even stronger. The chances of a runaway AI are higher on the top levels.

What can be quite strong on an island map is war happiness from remote civs. As you must have noticed, civs treat you in a more arrogant manner on higher levels, demanding things and stuff. If they can't get to you easily, just let them declare on you. In that 320AD save you could have benefited from war happiness from 1 or 2 civs, as it would have saved you from having to use the lux slider. It can also make some leader fishing possible, although you would then really need artillery, especially if they start landing with defensive units. And it compromises your trade options of course - you can't trade with civs you're at war with.

Raliuvenote said:
I goofed and busted my rep while fighting the Mongols - that was stupid because it is making trade a bit harder and I usually try to avoid that. IIRC, I don't think I have razed any cities. I have not abused any ROP deals (actually, I never sign ROP, so no issue there).

You're still a bit hazy on how reputation and attitude works.
Reputation comes in play whenever you've got a 20-turn commitment to a civ. Razing a city only affects attitude - the AI doesn't like it when you raze cities, but it doesn't affect their view of you as a trading partner. You can be a very nasty fellow, annoying everyone, but attitude and reputation are two completely seperate things.

For an attitude hit a 20-turn agreement from your side needs to be broken. It can happen without you realising it immediately. If you trade a hard good like a lux or so to another civ and a barb galley appears on the trade route this breaks the route and you get a hit. In the 320AD save I saw you exporting quite a few lux, so you were always at risk with your reputation. A route can go through a harbour of a friendly civ who sells the harbour and gone is your rep. Be careful with exporting hard goods.
Also when you sign a peace treaty - that's not the same as default peace - a period of 20 turns enters in which you need to respect this peace. Only after these 20 turns you can attack that civ without fear for your reputation.
The problem with a broken rep is having the AI accept another 20-turn commitment from you. They will still accept immediate cash or techs no problem. Also, if it were the Mongols who made you lose your rep, then civs will still not care about that if they are at war with the Mongols. They are blind to whatever you've done to their enemies. Paradoxically, if the Mongols are gone and you haven't got the option anymore to set others up against the Mongols it's worse.
I've seen posters here claim they saw a rep problem they had disappear over time, but personally I don't know anything about that. I try to kep my rep.

Raliuven · Apr 18, 2011

Again, Optional, thank you for the critique and pointers - this is all excellent information and you seem to see and hit right on my weaknesses. Thank you for taking the time to review my game and post.

I like to make early Lux trades to up by research. I know some experienced players recommend against this because it always aids the AI more than the player. Is there a balance? I know early lux trades are risky because of the 'tenuous' trade network. Do you only trade to those you have a direct or multi-connected trade network? If so, doesn't that mean you are trading with the mostly likely candidate for conquest - either for you or them?

Question from anyone lurking - at this level, I feel that I am seriously bogged down at my invasion point. My landing is secure - I don't think anything Arabia can do at this point can run me off the island. But I haven't absorbed his waves of units yet. I have set up killing fields and I am destroying them, but it has taken about 20 turns for me to seriously consider expanding my landing zone. I did destroy the closest city to my landing (and a new city has sprung up close by). On this level, how long is the 'average' waiting period before you start moving out? I assume 20 turns is far too long. Just curious.

Finally, a more detailed log of 1330AD-1570AD & pictures

Spoiler :

Raliuven · Apr 20, 2011

Well, we've made it to the modern age and it is now 1700 AD. GL production has gone way up and I have 14 armies in the field. The southeast war has been executed and completed, the island is now Ottoman. The main warfront with Arabia is going nicely, if not swiftly. Tanks and tank armies will help that along. I am still in Monarchy and I am just barely the tech leader. I am set up to grab the UN with a prebuild and at the rate that I am generating leaders I hope to capture Seti and the Internet. Things are going well and I hope to put this in the win column very soon!

Turn log from 1580AD-1700AD & picture of the main battle front. I've taken the two choke points that was once the line between the Zulu and the Arabians.

Spoiler :

Optional · Apr 20, 2011

It's good to see your game is going well, a first Deity win would be a great achievement!

I hadn't looked at your game beyond the 320AD save yet, but I now had a look at your newer saves as well.

It's unusual to research the top-branch in the MA if you're going for a military win, although what you're doing quite well is researching techs for their trade advantage.
Most of the AI will take the lower branch, with Gunpowder and Military Tradition as the crucial techs on that path. That may have been your preferred route as well, but if you were in doubt about getting there first I can understand the line you took - basically you researched the top-branch and traded for the bottom-branch.
If you had had more confidence about your research rate you should certainly have gone straight for Military Tradition, especially without artillery. The sooner you get Cavalry (Sipahi) the better, because before you know it the AI will have rifles everywhere, and then Cavalry on its own - even Sipahi - won't have such a breeze anymore.
Also because you hardly had any artillery you became very reliant on armies. You even built them! That's highly unusual; normally at this stage of the game there's so much fighting, resulting in so many leaders that it can become hard to keep building enough units to keep your armies filled!

Raliuven said:
...Arabia signs the Aztecs up to help destroy me...Additional war happiness puts lux slider down to 10%.

You must be mistaken here, you don't get war happiness from a civ joining a war pact.

Raliuven said:
IBT – Aztecs offer peace if I pay them 20gp. Nah, I’d rather kill your units. You haven’t managed to invade yet. It’s only been, what, 180 years? I like the war happiness.

That might not have been such a bad deal then... EDIT: No, I'm reading wrong; they want money from you? No, not good; other way round would have been nice.

Raliuven said:
I like to make early Lux trades to up by research. I know some experienced players recommend against this because it always aids the AI more than the player. Is there a balance? I know early lux trades are risky because of the 'tenuous' trade network. Do you only trade to those you have a direct or multi-connected trade network? If so, doesn't that mean you are trading with the mostly likely candidate for conquest - either for you or them?

Yes, a good research rate is a dear thing, but there are several ways to help this. If it's money you need you can also consider taking loans from the AI. Sometimes in the early game that's your only option as well - no decent trade network yet. If a loan helps you getting Philosophy earlier or to snap that worker up then I would do it. The interest is very low, and there might be a pleasant side effect: the AI having less opportunities to trade amongst each other because of less stock money.
Also experienced players often use tricks to get war happiness. Putting unreasonable demands forward and annoy them is one way; I've never liked doing that myself, but it's being done a lot.
Another technique is to tie in a peace treaty with a deal. Say you sign an alliance with England against France and you make peace a part of this deal. If England breaks this deal by signing peace with France early then as a consequence they're declaring war on you = war happiness. Once in a Succession Game I explained someone which buttons to push to activate such a deal, I might as well link to my old picture again here:

Spoiler :

I'm sorry if you already know of this method, but if that's the case it might still help someone else. You could consider it an exploit, but if you're a human player investing in deals with the AI it can be frustrating to see how easily the AI breaks them, and this compensates for that.

If you make a lux deal with a civ close to you, then yes, basically that's accepting you won't go to war with that civ for the next 20 turns. But an early one-on-one war with a Deity AI is not something I fancy anyway. Early war is good, because an AI that can grow in peace can become a monster, but I don't like to fight a full-strength AI.
A common thing that I do when I want to attack my neighbour is to sign an alliance with him against another neighbour where he's sharing a large border with. With that I hope to frustrate their peaceful expansion that is probably still going on, and I'm also hoping my neighbour will lose units while I'm still mobilizing and expanding myself.

Raliuven said:
Question from anyone lurking - at this level, I feel that I am seriously bogged down at my invasion point. My landing is secure - I don't think anything Arabia can do at this point can run me off the island. But I haven't absorbed his waves of units yet. I have set up killing fields and I am destroying them, but it has taken about 20 turns for me to seriously consider expanding my landing zone. I did destroy the closest city to my landing (and a new city has sprung up close by). On this level, how long is the 'average' waiting period before you start moving out? I assume 20 turns is far too long. Just curious.

I don't know whether there's an 'average' or whether that actually matters. There were railroads in this case, so Arabia was capable of throwing more or less everything they had straight at you. When waves of units didn't come (anymore?) you had to assume Arabia simply didn't have them.
What players on higher levels often do to move forward quicker is to use 'combat settlers'. I wasn't sure what that meant until someone in a Succession Game posted a picture. I'll link to that as well: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=323414&page=23. Look for Salarakas' post, #448 (I know there's a way to link to a single post, but I don't know how).
Succession Games are really great for learning the game, by the way, and I think you would be a good one for that, but about every SG gets played in Conquests, so you might be missing out with your old PTW.

Good luck with the final hurdles of your game!

CKS · Apr 20, 2011

If you wanted to play a succession game, though, you could start one. Everyone has PTW, so it might not be too hard to get one started.

Raliuven · Apr 20, 2011

Thanks Optional - I won't try to fit your post in a quote - but everything you've said is great info and a great help. Thank you very much! I will try to take everything you've said to heart and if there is a failing it is with the student, not the teacher. I am going to ply these lessons in the GOTM and see where I land!

I was wondering about the 'invasion wave'. It was very strange from the other stories I've read. I put my infantry army at the invasion point - chosen because I can land reinforcements and keep all boats safe even though the city is on a flat plain (not a hill for quick defensive bonus). I moved my Sipahi armies out to block the path while I build a wall and a barracks. When I moved away, small waves hit, but they would not attack my city. I was hitting them all with artillery - I would have thought they would either attack or retreat - instead they fortified some units and retreated others while bring in fresh units. I figured they would thow everything in, but they way they sort of straggled into the gap made me pause.

As for armies - I was waiting for armies to begin the invasion to protect my landing area. I figured it would help control the tide. But my RNG luck was not so good in my fight against Japan so I've set one city to build armies and nothing else- but now I have so many armies and not enough units, so I definatley see your point. GL production has increased in the last turn set, producing 3 leaders in short order. My defect may be that I hold tightly to that army to protect my initial landing.

That trick with the renegotiating peace is tricky! So if I renegotiate and they refuse, they declare on me? I knew you could renegotiate, I just didn't know it worked like that! What I have discovered is once you select to renegotiate, you are then forced to continue, even if you wish you could go back to the old deal!

I may try a SG. I've thought about it for a long time. I'll probably hunt down C3C soon as well - and then I'll have to relearn everything again! :lol:

No more RCP, new traits, and my beloved industrial trait that has been weakened :cry:

Optional · Apr 20, 2011

Raliuven said:
I was wondering about the 'invasion wave'. It was very strange from the other stories I've read. I put my infantry army at the invasion point - chosen because I can land reinforcements and keep all boats safe even though the city is on a flat plain (not a hill for quick defensive bonus). I moved my Sipahi armies out to block the path while I build a wall and a barracks. When I moved away, small waves hit, but they would not attack my city. I was hitting them all with artillery - I would have thought they would either attack or retreat - instead they fortified some units and retreated others while bring in fresh units. I figured they would thow everything in, but they way they sort of straggled into the gap made me pause.

The AI doesn't like to attack armies. It assesses battles on a one-on-one basis. They can have 1000 cavalry and you just one cavalry army and they still will not attack, because they just see what odds one of their cavalry units has against your one army. The biggest risk you were running was the flip chance of your city.

Raliuven said:
That trick with the renegotiating peace is tricky! So if I renegotiate and they refuse, they declare on me? I knew you could renegotiate, I just didn't know it worked like that! What I have discovered is once you select to renegotiate, you are then forced to continue, even if you wish you could go back to the old deal!

I forgot, that is a bit tricky at first. You're right, you can't go back. By renegotiating peace you're basically putting the knife on the table; you're saying 'Take this deal, or it's war!' You need them to accept the deal, otherwise it's you who is responsible for the conflict. It's best to feel the water first, and see how the AI responds to a package without the peace treaty in there, then count on having to add a bit more from your side once the peace treaty is in. You're using a very aggressive negotiating technique when doing this, and the AI doesn't really like it. But once a deal is struck, either side that doesn't abide by it declares war on the other.

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