Discussion in 'Civ4 - Strategy & Tips' started by ben-jammin, May 7, 2013.
Can you post this as a WorldBuilder save?
To 675 BC
The AI tech pace has been pretty crazy in this game. Almost everyone had Alpha by the time i got Aesthetics, a couple had Currency extremely early, Confucianism was founded somewhere in the 1500's BC without the Oracle, and Taoism was founded in 925BC.
I was able to catch up in tech a little bit, but i had to trade Aesthetics to everyone to do it. Nobody has Lit yet though, so I'm picking that up, perhaps followed by Music, but i really need Currency soon to beg some gold off Capac. He's been plotting for a handful of turns now, and while he's Pleased with me, that occurred after he began plotting. AFAIK I'm his nearest target, so that's not great.
This is what things currently look like:
My workers were getting strained, so I'm getting out a round of those quick, followed by two more settlers, maybe some swords to take one or two of those barb cities, and i would like to build/chop TGL somewhere.
I've noticed that i really don't have an ideal site for TGL. I don't want to run scientists in my capitol, York is just a production spot, Nottingham could easily build it with all of the forests, but it would be hard to run 2 scientists and work a 0f gold tile not to mention that it would be difficult to actually grow that place. Canterbury is still underdeveloped and lacks the production. My helper city is an OK candidate but lacks forests and i would really rather have it work cottages for awhile longer...
I think i might just build it in London anyway. I'll get a free GS ~17 turns after completion without running any extra scientists, and i can easily get 1-2 more GS out of there later during a GA to get to Lib. I'll put the NE in another city a bit later (maybe 2x fish spot) and use that one for some merchants. Not exactly ideal, but sometimes you just have to improvise...
Here are the tech and wonder situations:
Situation in 1595AD:
I don' know... I got a bit behind in the tech situation for not paying attention to trading. The AIs have infantry, tanks and bombers, so I think I'll have to tech to infantry/artillery myself to take out the next AI. I'm not really good at handilng the late game on Deity, so any suggestions and criticism are appreciated.
The map is much tougher than it first seems.
I'm not sure that you can catch up from your current position. The AI tech very quickly on this map, and Zara will soon vassalize Julius Caesar.
Without any good trading partners of your own, you'll have to go it alone. HC will be able to offer a little help, but not much.
The map is very large, and there are several advanced AI who can all win the game. It will take you 28 turns at present to reach Infantry, whereas the AI already have Tanks, Bombers, and Artillery. Willem is gunning for culture, Zara, Joao, and Lincoln will all go for Space. You could probably stop one of those in time. But all four? And presumably Julius Caesar will never open borders with you, so you'll need to build a navy. The final kicker: try and find a source of Oil that doesn't need Plastics (...there is one. You'll laugh when you see it. )
To continue, I think you need to cap Caesar so that you have a trading partner. You'll also need to build a sufficiently large navy to target the other AI capitals and nerf their victory attempts. There are always nukes, but if you build them, the others will as well, and they have more hammers and cities than you.
I'll be interested to see what you attempt, and whether it works. Good luck.
What difficulty do you want? I don't wanna post WB saves for all difficulties but I can help a fellow civ player any day!
Thanks for the great feedback.
Yeah, I guess I've gotten myself into an unwinnable position. I managed to get a nice breakout with ~30 cuirassiers before 900's, but I let my focus slip a few too many times while at war with HC and Hammy.
A list of mistakes I think I made:
- Didn't attack JC instead of HC. Had I killed/capped him I would be in a much better position to intercept the AIs going for culture/space by being closer to them. Turning around to get HC and Hammy would've been easy. My main rationale for going against HC though was that he had the mids, and was warring against Hammy, making them both a softer resistance.
- Didn't build Oxford. Crushing Immortal can be done with just rifling + steel, but Deity requires the player to tech into the industrial/future era to keep up with the AI militarily.
- Maybe I should've gifted the Inca and Babylon their cities back to help me get quicker to Infantry. That would've made getting to the next AIs quicker too.
- Many that I fail to recognize.
I've gotten myself to the point where I have quite a good understanding of what to do to win lib and stomp a couple of AIs with cuirassiers, but Deity seems to demand much more than that. Knowing a little bit of what I did wrong, I'll give this map another try.
RE the oil:
I'm just wondering... if it's normal for the AI to get TGL this early? I don't know. Maybe it is if they go the Aesthetics route. It's still depressing.
A few turns earlier Parthenon was built too.
wow, that's painfully early. i was able to land it @ 200 B.C., although i was able to hang on to literature for a little while for myself...
progress to 1AD:
tldr version: 10 cities and still growing, TGL and Sistine, maybe a dozen turns from lib, which I think I should win handily. in nowhere near as nice a position as solyaris is at the same date, but still pretty decent, i think!
long version: put an academy in my capital with the GS, and then won music. did quite well with trades, but had to research CoL myself, as hammy had a monopoly on it and refused to trade it. he bulbed taoism shortly after, and still has a monopoly on that to this day. JC has been plotting for dozens of turns now, either against me or against one of his worst enemies from across the map. (zara/lincoln; switches every other turn it seems). massive amounts of war; HC and babylon have been at war for millennia and are both massively behind in tech/cities, and zara/lincoln are at war since just the last half dozen turns. I have a monopoly on paper, while asoka and willem have both theology/engineering up on me. the three of us are the leaders in tech.
whip-chopped TGL in my double-fishing village thanks to a pair of newly grown trees, and chopped sistine out in my sheep/copper city. with india at only 6 cities and spamming religions and wonders, and the dutch only at 8 with the same game plan, a cultural victory seems by far the safest route on this map. 3-4 "flycatcher" island cities should be very helpful in giving me access to new religions despite aggressive missionary spam from both willem and asoka.
my current problem is dealing with my extremely rapid expansion. I've only recently switched into HR (don't need more happiness when you can keep under cap with double-whips) with the golden age, along with OR, bureaucracy, and buddhism, and it's really past time to grow my cities a little more. however, I'm about 4-5 workers short from where I can keep up with new tile improvements, especially since i'll need to offshore at least a few to the islands. in addition, my military is quite bare-bones, and, while im not scared of HC, I can't bribe caesar on someone else while he's WHEOOHRN. I guess I'll still need to whip hard for a little while longer...
(apologies for a terrible screenshot here; my mouse broke on my laptop, and I dont know how to zoom out with my touchpad)
Really? Took me 5 dead warriors to reach 2000BC.
I almost couldn't settle the first spot... had a warrior on hill winning a defense against barb archer (+3xp) and then same wounded warrior (Combat, 1.4 strength), on another hill, winning a defence against barb warrior (+2xp)... Desperate fights, I tell you Without that, no city two and many more dead warriors.
The land seems good, then but... we're not alone!!
(and they can expand)
To 1 AD
I think things are going pretty well. A few turns into the session i met the last two guys, and, fortunately, Hammurabi wasn't as advanced as the rest of the AI. That allowed me to make a nice trade for a couple of techs that i needed, Monarchy and Monotheism.
In 500BC i got TGL, although i did have to build it in London. I also lost Music to Willem on the same turn... i believe he went the Drama route and snuck up on me a bit.
I captured one of the two barb cities in 75BC, but Capac beat me to the other one 2 turns later. That's not really a huge deal though, 8 cities should be enough to get me started. With a little bit of work Cherokee will be a killer production spot. HE is definitely going there once i can build it. It's even coastal in case i have to build ships for something later in the game.
Nobody else is really pursuing the CS > Paper > Edu route, so i feel safe going for Nationalism and MT Lib. I'm going to time the GS in London to finish around the same time as Nationalism and start a golden age to aid in building the Taj. I also want to get 1 more GS out of London so i need to get Buddhism in there for Philo + CS switch. I've stayed neutral thus far, but Buddhism is easily the safest religion on this map, and i have it in a city now.
My empire and the tech screen:
I think im gonna start over on this map tonight and play till i lose i guess Oo. I accidently saved over my only save of my game, and none of my autosaves are of this game i dont get it, i am goign to delete all of my saves because i think i have 100+ saves and its getting very confusing because of how i letter/number them. I have tried to avoid looking at any maps, but ive already seen most of the peninsula so ill end up sip this time which is something i didnt do last time so maybe my game will go differently we'll see , i also will probably settle the fish/gold spot before the sheep/bronze this time but idk, we'll see i guess. im probably gonna play for 2-3 hours so ill either lose or get well into the renassaince era. Im gonna take some s/s's at 650 bc to compare to my last attempt though. wish me luck with the barbs
Aye, don't feel bad about it. Look up some openings you fancy, replicate Pretty good way to understand the rationale behind the moves is to see them in action. Especially true if you have your own first attempt to compare what ends up different.
Good luck with the barbs!
Ya i started over, had awful luck with 3 waves of barbs, then got super lucky when one of them didnt make the right choice and missed an easy opportunity to take one of my cities, but then just when i was starting to see the light at the end of the tunnel JC makes a 450bc dow on me that i didnt see coming, he was no where near me at the time and sent a few praets and everything caught me with my pants down so i restarted, he had been plotting for like a dozen turns but i didnt think it was me so .... and...
this next time around its 25AD i think, and im just starting to tech civil service, JC made a ~500bc dow on asoka, asked me to join so i did, because i knew asoka was on the other side of him... i got up to +5 military alliance though it wasnt necessary, and asoka is holding on with 3 cities though i doubt he can keep it up. the problem this game is that i expanded pretty quickly, was constantly fog busting bogging myself down in unit costs, and because of the barbs and the war, i couldnt get past asoka, so its 1ad, and ive only met willem/jc/asoka/huana. i finally got asoka to peace for aesthetics and opened borders for long enough to get a unit to the other side, and im sending a chariot to meet the rest of the civs including hammi and the rest of them, but its just annoying how much the war took a toll on my trades, i figure when i meet the rest of the civs, they'll be way ahead of the 4 of us, ill post some s/s's of 25ad or whatever later, im gonna play the rest of it out and see what happens. Im not really that far behind any of the known civs, and actually ahead of capac, i have 7-8 cities now, which is basically even with the rest, and im mostly keeping up in terms of techs, but i have a feeling zara and the other guys are going to be way ahead of all of us, i got tgl, but i missed music ga, and i have no idea by how many turns cause i dont know who got it so that certainly slowed me down. I certainly seem to get flamed on deity alot more than on other diffs, its always something like barbs ruin my opening, or trades go badly or i cant get any trades, i miss music or tgl, BC dow, silly stuff like that you wouldnt think would happen frequently, but seems to consisitently ruin me. Whats strange to me is ive played this 3 times, up to about 1ad, and each time ive started with worker/ag etc, same start generally, but each time has ended up incredibly different, expansion, barbs, dow's, tech rate, each time have been so different that its ridiculous. the randomness of each game baffles me
Played on to 1120 AD
I got the Taj in 375 AD with some forests i had been saving for that purpose.
And Lib on the next turn after a GS bulb.
It took me a little while to build up troops, but eventually i had 20-25 upgraded Cuirs. I bribed JC onto Willem for Nationalism and Education, and traded Nationalism around for Eng, Optics, and Guilds. Shortly after that i attacked JC razing 1 city that he had recently founded on my peninsula, and capturing another up on the land bridge. Since he built and controlled the Buddhist AP he brought up a stop the war vote which i had to defy. Ouch!
I fought my way on down to Rome, captured it, survived one counter-attack with some losses, and then countered another counter attack before it could hit me.
Which eventually led to capitulation and where things stand now.
Tech and wonders:
As you can see, Asoka has a lot of nice wonders plus the Buddhist shrine, and Buddhism is already present in over 30 cities. He also has a pretty good number of Grenadiers which could make attacking with mounted troops a bit tougher. With just 6 cities though i doubt he can really put up enough resistance to stop me. I can also pick up Steel from JC and start building some cannons.
I think the plan right now is to conquer my way on around to Zara and see how far ahead he is in tech by the time i get there. HC and Hammy are harmless so I'm going to leave them alone for the time being.
Awesome! I actually wanted the WB to play Deity w/ huts/events on, and BUG (mod install).
Ok, so i got bored and restarted for the 3rdish time, i never really got past 500bc without quitting so this is a reasonable effort... and i have no idea why im doing decent but im not gonna argue.. Had less trouble with barbs this time around, and wasnt so worried about getting boxed in as i usually am at imm+.
anyway, these are the screens with commentary to follow
so, i still discovered some of the civs late, but the trades went better, i got TGL this time, and the music ga, nobody declared on me which was also nice... somehow i was also one of the first to CoL, though not the first, i was still the first to philo though, timed the ga to switch into HR/OR/Beaur, i figured everyone hated zara because of the hindu lovefest, so i traded philo to him for about an equal value, which was probably a mistake, because now he could beat me to lib, he didnt trade it to anyone else so i still got some deals out of it, but i imagine hes going for econ so it may not matter, if he beats me to lib though ill be pissed, because i knew very well it might be a bad idea to give it to him, i had already started nationalism when i traded it to him, so i wasnt worried about him getting taj, just didnt realize how quickly he could get to edu, especially having been at war with lincoln for quite some time, so it seems the 4 people on my side of the map are backwards again, jc/capac/hammi are all behind, and will probably be early targets for me if i can get them to turn on eachother. Ill get taj im pretty certain, willhelm only just got nationalism that turn i took the s/s, as for zara, im not sure if he'll lib before me but im hoping not... if hes going for econ, i can lib mt, and run all over jc before he knows what hit him, probably can get capac and hammi pretty easy too, but we'll see i guess. In any case, this time around went way better. axes earlier and less expansion early made all the difference in wonders and trades, also silver popped up on one of the hills when i wasnt paying attention so that was nice as well. Just settled and island city, i took a barb city but it autorazed, and some kinda buggy stuff was going on, there was a jc settler sitting a forest, and the archers in the barb city just left it alone, then after i accidently razed the city, the settler didnt settle... so i got the city 2-3 turns later, its a pretty useless city but i figured why not, while i was taking the 2 barb cities, i got a swordsman to cr3, which is enough for HE, but theres no great places to put it because of a lack of food, Im probably going to switch where it is in the screenshot to the city with the gold, because i can farm more of that, and theres the plains iron as well, didnt mean to put it in the other city not sure why i did that. Anyway, this game is looking up compared to the others but i still doubt ill be able to keep teching along with everyone else while im trying to pump out cuirs, not sure if theres a mass upgrade in the future, if i tech lib, i can probably get a GM or two during the taj ga, and maybe start a 2nd ga as well, i cant figure otu how to attach a save in this thread but i may try to do edit one in later if i figure it out.
Well i gave up on my first attempt. I was behind in tech even after making some trades with Aest. and Compass. After that i couldn't keep up and so had nothing to trade with.
My second attempt ended after 38 turns when 2 archers and a warrior took my capitol. Will try again.
Ok. Summarizing my game so far, which was a long, long way from excellent play:
4 cities at 1000 BC:
I met Huayna Capac, J.C., and Asoka very quickly. The Temple of Artemis generated a lot of fail gold, thanks to the Marble:
I used the fail gold to tech HBR. Huayna had started plotting soon after we'd met. I supposed (wrongly, I think) that he was plotting against me.
H.C. was probably planning to declare war against Hammurabi, whom I met while scouting H.C.'s lands. But I got cocky. In 375BC I had a stack, so rather than wait for HC to involve himself in a war, I declared, eager to get my hands on the Pyramids:
The war went fine along the land strip. But reaching his capital was... disheartening:
In a hill city.
So I skipped right on by, forked his wonder city, and made peace:
I enjoy pre-Cuirassier wars, but they do leave you behind in tech:
I still made an attempt to win Lib. I had access to Stone thanks to Lincoln and, as the second civ to Paper, tried to build the UoS (a bust, but good fail gold). I also teched Education, since Zara was the only who had it at the time.
I came very close to winning Lib... but not quite close enough. On the turn I teched Education, and with a GS lined up, Willem pipped me to the post. Oh well. Education was good trade bait.
To my surprise, I was able to build the Taj Mahal thanks to a 5-pop whip. 6 other AIs had Nationalism at the time, so I was more than happy to take the GA:
Especially since I was preparing to fight off Julius Caesar:
HC had previously peace vassaled to JC. He broke away after I destroyed his master's stack, but I still needed to take his stupid hill capital:
HC capped, and I pushed eastwards, capturing 3 cities, including Rome:
I received a fourth city in a peace treaty. No capitulation: I now had Cavalry, but JC had teched Rifling on the exact turn before I attacked Rome. Luckily he'd only upgraded a few units, but I didn't want to throw away my stack attacking Rifles with Cuirassiers.
After Caesar, I went for one of the three AIs who still lacked Rifling, the Friendly Asoka:
I only needed to take two cities before he gave in. So shiny :
...and then returned to finish off Caesar, before he got access to Infantry. Except, on the turn after I declared, he teched Assembly Line:
Lots of my Cavalry started to receive Flanking. There were heavy casualties, only one particularly nice city got captured, but eventually JC capitulated:
It's now 1535 AD and I'm in what will no doubt be my final Golden Age. Biology has just been teched, suddenly making huge swathes of land useful. I can barely fit my empire into a screenshot:
I'm seriously thinking about switching into Environmentalism. It's a terrible civic but here... it might be worth it.
I wasn't sure what I was going to do. Now... I think I'm going to declare war immediately against Willem. He'll no doubt have a huge stack of Artillery. Buuuttt, he doesn't have Assembly Line just yet, and Asoka's cities will act as a good buffer. With any luck, JC will throw his stack into the mix too while it's still useful, and I can extend the life span of my Renaissance army.
Latest save is attached.
You're in a great position. Much better than my own. Ignoring Hammy and HC is definitely the right play on this map. The AI who might win are located in the east and south, and the sooner you start moving toward them the better.
There might be something i don't understand about the AP...
JC built the Buddhist AP in Rome, i captured it later and then noticed that no Buddhist buildings were providing 2 any longer. I loaded an old save prior to any wars and verified that they were providing the 2 before i captured Rome. Rome is out of revolt, and there's been another election. The only other thing that i can think of is that defied a resolution.
What's going on?
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