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Deity Graduate School I

Discussion in 'Civ4 - Strategy & Tips' started by ben-jammin, May 7, 2013.

  1. Doshin

    Doshin jolly yellow giant

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    @ Izuul

    Spoiler :
    Unlucky. You looked all set to win in the 1440 AD screenshot.

    Runaway tech leaders are the worst. Could you get to Marines, Flight, and Plastics before Joao's spaceship arrived? Marines and Fighters would at least circumvent the massive diplo penalties which accrue from nuking an AI's friend (Zara's friend, in this case).

    Also, did you beg or demand gold from HC and Zara Yaqob just before you declared? With 10-turns to cap Joao, you could probably finish the war... at which point your power should have been too high for Zara to declare.
     
  2. Izuul

    Izuul Level 86

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    Spoiler :
    No i just had a brain fart and forgot to beg gold from Zara b/c he was Friendly. Joao only lacked the Stasis Chamber for his ship and he got Genetics in a trade from Zara in 1790. I assume he would've launched a few turns later. I don't know how i would've taken him out fast enough without nukes.

    I think I'm going to play the last part out again, begging gold this time and see what i can do.
     
  3. Doshin

    Doshin jolly yellow giant

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    @Izuul

    Spoiler :
    Also remember that you do not lose on the turn that an AI launches, but the turn upon which their spaceship lands.

    If both Engines and all Thrusters have been built, this will give you ten turns in which to capture Joao's capital after the launch. If one Engine is missing, you have twelve. And after the capital is captured, he has to start all over, which is usually too much for a nuked and warring AI to handle.
     
  4. BornInCantaloup

    BornInCantaloup Agent of Chaos

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    @Opponents & kill order:

    Spoiler :
    It seems the favoured move is to push through Rome and India first. Not sure it is for the best. To me, they seem to be the AIs with the worst land. Rome can be dangerous, sure, so erasing them from the map is a security. I wonder if it balances out well. Depends whether Rome is isolated or not, I suppose. If they are isolated, then I doubt an invasion is the right move.

    Babylon/Inca have very nice land. Killing them both leaves player owning a 1/4th of the map. Quite a nice position. That's what I'd (or will) favour, I think.

    Zara/Joao also have very good land. They're so far away, however, they're pretty much inaccessible before the very late game. Runaway AIs ftw. Maybe a map for nukes? Unless one goes for a naval invasion...
    Willem/Lincoln have some good land but not much of it. All in all, I'd think there's little incentive to crush Rome.
     
  5. BornInCantaloup

    BornInCantaloup Agent of Chaos

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    Well, I'd have thought the same but... despite an easy start (location), the late game seems both unavoidable and quite challenging.
    8 AIs, all in contact makes for a fast, fast tech pace. Easy to fall behind if one isn't careful. Good trading policy helps (part research + right trade partners).
     
  6. Izuul

    Izuul Level 86

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    Spoiler :

    I'm not sure how spoilerish this is for you since you've been reading through some game summaries, but I'll put it in another spoiler in case you don't want to read something end-game related with Zara and Joao.
    Spoiler :
    Zara got SDI shortly after 1700AD and Joao in 1770AD in my game, and from what I've seen from other write-ups, i think that's going to be a common occurrence. If you go for Nukes in this game you need to do it early and with a purpose. If i had gotten them a dozen turns earlier, i could've timed a huge nuclear strike on Joao+Zara+Hammy to coincide with a UN vote and that likely would've dropped the global pop enough to put me over the top. Alas, i was a bit wishy-washy on what to do towards the end and i didn't get there soon enough.

     
  7. BornInCantaloup

    BornInCantaloup Agent of Chaos

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    @Izuul:
    Thanks for the input. Rest assured, it isn't very spoilerish at the point I'm at: 800 AD. Indeed, late game plans can be hard to come up with when one isn't used to the era and AIs bonuses start getting overwhelming. I can see the trouble, although I'm not there, yet.
    Sorry @all for not putting up a write up. I've been running low on energy :lol:

    @game summaries, yes, I've scouted most progressions to 1AD and then yours and that of Doshin, I believe (so I saw you retired, too bad! Maybe next time...). Tall German Joe & Solyaris played a very solid BC game, iirc.
     
  8. Doshin

    Doshin jolly yellow giant

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    1795 AD, Diplomatic Victory / Domination

    Spoiler :
    I met both conditions on the same turn, thanks to a Great Artist bomb ending a revolt:

    Spoiler :







    The end game was pretty straightforward. I capped Willem after taking his Eiffel Tower city. Attacked Lincoln immediately after, and then Joao:

    Spoiler :






    I had to do this to secure Oil for a while:

    Spoiler :



    Moar Windmills:

    Spoiler :

    Thanks for the map, ben-jammin. :D I haven't played Tectonics before. It's an interesting script, but I'd imagine it could be very unfair if you rolled a start at random.
     

    Attached Files:

  9. Doshin

    Doshin jolly yellow giant

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    @BIC

    Spoiler :
    Spoilers...
    Spoiler :
    There are quite a few trade happy AIs in this game, which makes the tech pace very punishing. If Joao does not want to trade with Willem, he trades with Zara, who trades with Asoka, who trades with Willem... and so on. It's difficult to keep up.

    Julius Caesar's land is pretty average until Steam Power (Levees) and Biology (very strong here). But behind J.C. lies a weak Asoka (awful land, great wonders/shrines) and Willem (great land, some wonders).

    All of the land based Oil is in the south, without which it is all-but impossible to carry out a nuclear war. Teching to Plastics removes the element of surprise you would have by beelining Fission. And nuclear wars can be risky if you cannot guarantee your own safety versus the other AI (nuke Joao, get back-stabbed by some combination of Hammurabi/Zara/Lincoln/Willem ten turns later).

    You can attack the north-west first. I took out Huayna with Horse Archers this way. But if you rush that way with Cuirassiers or Rifles, your Renaissance army will become outdated by the time you swing back, and you will then have to rely upon 1-movement siege units to make any sort of progress (at the point where the Deity bonuses start to really compound...). I think JSS's game was undone in this way.

    Culture victory would seem to be fairly safe since Lizzie is Philosophical. The Marble guarantees you the Sistine Chapel, and the Gold should let the player win Music and Lib, provided that he or she stays small.
     
  10. ben-jammin

    ben-jammin Emperor

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    Nice one, Doshin. You're a very consistent deity winner, I'm always particularly impressed by your late game prowess. I think a lot of us lesser deity players spent too much time winning immortal games by steel or rifling that we just don't know how to handle the late tech tree, the crazy AI late tech bonus, etc. You're right about tectonics not being any good unless the map is checked for balance.

    I gather this game turned out harder than anticipated, but maybe that's a good thing considering the leader. Fewer AIs would have only made it harder, though. I'll give the map a shot myself this week and maybe try to do something a little different.
     
  11. Izuul

    Izuul Level 86

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    I think you hit the nail on the head there. I got far too accustomed to winning Immortal games by 1600 AD with the AI often fielding nothing better than Rifles, and sometimes not even that.
     
  12. Doshin

    Doshin jolly yellow giant

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    It comes with experience. Winning the late game usually boils down to industrializing, not falling too far behind in tech, and keeping an eye on the various threats to your victory.

    The clock is always ticking, so sometimes it's necessary to fight difficult wars just to put down another AI and keep pushing forward. Here I had to mass rush Julius Caesar's Infantry with Cavalry (lots of Flanking promotions) without an airforce, hardly advisable... but better that than have him vassal to one of the big powers.

    The toughest situations occur when you are behind in tech and need to stop an overseas AI with an inland capital (Space) or inland Legendary cities (Culture). Then you need to catch up in research, increase production, build a navy, upgrade your army, sail to their continent, and finally invade and survive...

    To get better, use Artillery, Bombers and Fighters instead of Nukes. :p I only build Nukes when I'm absolutely screwed (a last ditch attempt) or the AI has already built the Manhattan Project, so dealing with nukes is inevitable.
     
  13. Steamwerks

    Steamwerks Warlord

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    I use the MP install.

    http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=12404675&postcount=26

    I go into it a bit here. Basically, more difficulty is good. Conversely, so are the rare occasions when you hit the lottery and cascade some scout pops into a few techs. I love random-ness!
     
  14. BornInCantaloup

    BornInCantaloup Agent of Chaos

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    My shadow. 4000 BC – 1 AD:

    Spoiler :
    SIP.
    Capital: Not totally sure because Warriors. Worker, grow to size 4, Settler, Worker, Warriors (lost 4 to barbarians), grow to size 5, 2 pop whip settler (OF in Granary, later 2pop whipped into), The Oracle.
    Tech path: Agriculture, The Wheel, Pottery (Worker farmed x2, cottaged x2, then chops), Bronze Working, Mysticism, Masonry, Polytheism, Priesthood, Sailing, (AH,) Writing.
    City 2: Monument (chopped), Warrior(s), worker at size 1.

    City 3 came very late: Settler was whipped on 1880BC and it was settled on 1720 BC. Cities 2&3 split the gold tiles, so as to work them asap and share the negative food.
    Situation at 1720 BC:
    Spoiler :


    Picked Monarchy from the Oracle (1600 BC) to grow cottages in London. Couldn't trade it, eek! That was a bust: Willem got Alphabet shortly after the Oracle was built and, by the time I got to Writing, he also had (traded for) Monarchy, was willing to trade Maths, etc.
    So I followed with Aesthetics (which I could trade), Litterature, Music, making small detours to part research techs that were up for trade.

    2 barb cities spawned north of our block of land, 1 east towards Rome and 1 west towards Incans.
    Sailing + Galley revealed islands.
    Got to 6 cities + Great Library (London) by 500 BC. At that point, I managed to build a couple barracks and some swordsmen. Unfortunately, the Incans managed to capture their barb city first.

    After Music (got the Artist circa 425 BC), backfilled CoL + Civil Service.
    Situation at 225 BC:
    Spoiler :


    GPs: First was a Prophet, settled in London. 2nd got Academy, 3rd is stored to bulb into Education (researching Paper atm).

    1 AD: captured 1 barb city, settled 2 more. Eyes are directed towards the islands (Huayna settled 1 city, there, and 3 barb cities spawned: swordsmen board galleys).
    National Epic is just being completed in London.
    Tech-wise I'm “in the pack”: neither ahead nor late. Lacking Metal Casting on most AIs but that is all.
    Religious situation is a mess and I will not adopt any religion, this game, to keep diplo favourable.

    Spoiler :


    Newcastle (border city in the NE) was settled via galley (first headed to SE island but blocked by barb city). Got at least 2 galleys at this point. Will get 3.
    Workers are a little sparse: 6 or 7.
    Couldn't explore much because Barbarians.

    There haven't been any wars.
    Overall plan at this point is to:
    - keep expanding;
    - keep up in techs;
    - stay safe (don't annoy Caesar);
    - build the HE (Hastings) and the Globe Theatre (2x Fish city);
    - get some Redcoats, supplement with whatever;
    - not walk the thin line (bring more than “enough” army to war, when war starts).

    Save is attached if you wanna more details (last in demographics, etc.).
     

    Attached Files:

  15. BornInCantaloup

    BornInCantaloup Agent of Chaos

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    Spoiler :
    Interesting, good point. I can see travel time becoming an issue on such a map. Especially with 1-movers and a military VC in mind.
    Well... I've settled for 1-movers to attack the NW. Then... I hope Railroads or Combustion (seeing how NW is cut from SW) will let me head East or South without logistics becoming a problem.
    Some AIs will be Friendly with me: I haven't dismissed a UN victory (in case victory happens). Diplo VC saves a LOT of travel time :D

    @outdated army: tech pace is such and I started warring sufficiently late that Riflemen will be obsoleted before the end of the 1st war (Capac). Not my worry. War weariness is harder to manage: many units to kill and few happy sources.
     
  16. BornInCantaloup

    BornInCantaloup Agent of Chaos

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    Continuing, 1 AD – 1000 AD:

    Spoiler :
    After this slow start (all REXing intents considered), I did set up to increase the infrastructure count/quality. Ah! Those were the dark times! Had to bank gold at 100% slider, then research a turn into Feudalism, then 2 into Engineering to get the trades, all while delaying Philosophy and Liberalism.

    250 AD:
    Spoiler :

    325 AD:
    Spoiler :


    By 450 AD, I finally arrived to Liberalism, without any gold reserves and a science slider at 0%.
    Spoiler :


    I had been holding onto the GA from Music all that time, waiting for the opportunity to accelerate research (need gold in bank!). Well, when Lincoln (or Joao?) got Liberalism in the 500 ADs range, I decided to hold onto it for a little while longer...

    For Liberalism race, tech trades screen at 520 AD:
    Spoiler :


    Having bulbed into Printing Press and completed research already, I decided to research Gunpowder instead of Liberalism (near monopoly). Waiting on Guilds + Banking to start Replaceable Parts. Taj Mahal, I judged, was a hopeless race, especially so since I was selling Marble to Lincoln for a whooping 15gpt.
    By 560 AD, the capture of the barbarian island cities is coming to an end but not yet complete.
    Spoiler :


    640 AD: we're 4 turns into a golden age and the capture of the barb cities is finally complete. We're up to 14 cities, which is nice and not nice: from 13 cities it takes 2 turns to switch a single civic (maybe less on this Small map, didn't check).
    Replaceable Parts is not yet in progress: researched Lib for trades and Free Religion, traded for Economics and am putting a couple turns of research into Astronomy to enable a trade.
    Spoiler :


    Another Prophet will be born and settled in London, preventing to chain Golden ages.
    We're up to 9 workers at this point. AP is buddhist and we're spreading the religion, despite not converting.

    800 AD, turn 150: we've just gotten Rifling. Heroic Epic is done. Globe Theatre not just yet.
    4 AIs have Scientific Method already. We'll delay that tech until after Factories + Railroads. There's no way we're getting free GPs and we're building plenty of Monasteries anyway. Also got more windmills than farms (so Biology isn't much of a concern).

    Here's the state of the infrastructure, units, etc. At 800 AD, stats screen:
    Spoiler :


    And the City advisor: we're still a few turns from the military build-up:
    Spoiler :


    860 AD: triggering a 2nd golden age to boost research & production (GP production, not so much; London was the only city hiring specialists). Finally starting on the Globe Theatre.
    Researching Military Tradition to get a handful of cavalries (gives some range to a stack of riflemen, capturing workers or countering units).

    1000 AD: last turn of golden age. We're set up, almost.
    We've started stacking along the Incan border. Tech path after Mil Trad has been directed towards Steel (just getting there) and our Trebuchets will be upgraded to Cannons.
    Traded Nationalism & Constitution to Caesar (who's lagging a little bit behind) and switched him into Representation, so he can become my Friendly little thing. Lucky him!

    Empire at 1000 AD:
    Spoiler :
    North & stack:
    Spoiler :


    South-west:
    Spoiler :


    South east:
    Spoiler :


    Tech trades screen, staying on par (and starting to hit WFYABTA):
    Spoiler :


    Still no AI-AI war.
    Civics: Representation, Bureaucracy, Slavery, Free Market, Free Religion.
     

    Attached Files:

  17. Tall German Joe

    Tall German Joe Prince

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    in general, i agree with you. i love an element of randomness in the games i play; for example, the other type of game, besides civ, that i love the most to play, are roguelikes. however, in civ4, events, and to a lesser extent huts, are too much for me to bear on the higher difficulty levels. i had to turn both off once i started to play on immortal and higher. getting a barb event or hut is immediate game over, while getting a free pasture at turn 2, or a free upgrade for all units of a type when you're about to rush, is completely broken. at least half the games you play will become pointless within the first 50 turns unless you reload autosaves regularly. on the other hand, the AIs will consistently receive multiple oracles worth of free money and tech, while you're lucky to get one hut for a free 40 gold.

    the game is random enough already with goofy AI behavior, and hard enough already with incredible AI bonuses! no need to make life more difficult for yourself!
     
  18. ben-jammin

    ben-jammin Emperor

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    I was hoping to showcase some Great Lighthouse abuse, but I think the fastest it's possible to get here without a coastal capital is around 1600-1500BC. I did my best and lost it twice around the same time (1600s, 3 or 4 turns away and no way to have done it faster whatsoever). Of course the next game when I had already given up on that strategy the GLH goes in the 1400s :rolleyes:

    One of those attempts gave me the earliest Oracle date I've seen in a game of my own, and I don't really feel the need to spoiler the screenshot because I hadn't even met a single AI yet :lol:



    So I had to figure out a new "different" thing to do with my game :crazyeye: Here's my play-through up to Lib:

    Spoiler :
    How you know there's a warmonger in your Deity game:



    GG in the 1600s, glad I didn't meet our friend Julius too early! A barb city popped up in the same spot as it did on some other people's playthroughs on this map, I took it ASAP to completely block off my entire peninsula:



    Huyana still snuck a settler by on a galley and took one of my spots, but a low-priority one. I screwed myself out of one good spot with shortsighted city placement, ending up with no city able to work the iron north of the capital. As if to make up for that the RNG popped me iron in the capital on the same hill where Izuul (i think?) popped gems. Still jealous, though.

    I lost music to Willem by 1 or 2 turns. Hate that guy, now! That definitely threw my entire plan off, and as it turned out I wasn't even able to use music for any particularly good trades. I took that frustration out on Huayana, beating his settler to the bronze/fish island by one turn:



    He was so stunned by the sheer audacity of it, his settler didn't even move for a good 10 turns. His chariot is still there a few hundred years later, showing no sign of moving. Paging Tachy with some funny AI settler escort behaviour.

    Hammy was willing to make this trade:



    But I decided to decline. That's a hefty price for a war that might not last, and he's doing a good job keeping himself backward without my help. Strangely enough Huayana declared on Hammy just a few turns later without plotting, if I'm not mistaken.

    Towards the fourth century AD the race for Liberalism was on with both Willem and Asoka able to research education shortly before I finished it with the help of a bulb (having also bulbed Philo, but was beaten to it by a turn or two again by Willem). Not sure how Asoka managed to stay in the Lib race like that, he was at war with Julius for most of the game. He must have built the Buddhist shrine. I researched compass and bulbed Lib to finish it safely in 475AD. I was able to make a good trade for Optics (which most AIs didnt have yet) right before this, so I had the choice of taking either the usual Nationalism (boooo, boring!) or Astronomy.

    I took Astronomy but may change my mind and re-load depending on what some better deity players think. Here's the tech situation after taking Astro (I didn't even realize nobody else had Nationalism, how often does that happen?):



    I was thinking that with Astro I could try something other than the usual and mount a daring naval invasion and try to take out Zara and Joao, the obvious threats, before their tech rate gets way out of hand. Is that a really dumb idea? I feel like by the time I got all my troops there I'd probably be facing rifles. Maybe cannons+whatever? Is libbing Astro worth it if all I can do with it (other than trade) is use frigates to bombard cultural defense as I work my way around the map? I suppose the sci meth -> physics line could be powerful, I happen to think airships are underrated if you get them around the time the AI is getting rifling.

     

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  19. BornInCantaloup

    BornInCantaloup Agent of Chaos

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    @ben-jammin:
    Oracle built in 2520 BC... That's early indeed. Good thing is that it's early enough to warn you it's useless to commit to Priesthood.
    GLH in the 1400 BCs is somewhat normal on Deity. You can expect it to be built around 1500 BC on many maps. So if you really want it, it's a must to gun for it with a coastal, high production 2nd city. In fact, it's quite a difficult wonder to build before 1600 BC without a coastal capital.
    Sometimes it will go awfully early (possiby before 2000 BC, I've seen Ragnar do that). I did take a pot shot at it and lost it (got less than 50 gold from it on 975 BC). Also failed Sistine, possibly for the best.


    As for your spoilered questions:
    Spoiler :
    Liberalism pick:
    2 AIs can research Lib, so you have to pick something that's available now.
    Astronomy vs Nationalism vs Printing Press.

    Printing Press from Liberalism is a bit of a downer: ruled out.
    I agree with your sentiment that Astronomy may not be the best pick. Reasons:

    Astronomy loses value without overseas AIs. First tech it unlocks is Scientific Method, a considerable investment with no immediate benefits. Having Astro or Sci Meth won't detract the AIs from those techs, it would just make it cheaper for the AIs to research them: no special bonuses involved (wonders, GPs, religion).
    Bottom line: Astro & Sci Meth are poor monopoly techs.

    Nationalism, on the other hand, is a good monopoly tech. Unlocking the Taj Mahal will somewhat discourage the AIs from researching it (although some of them are probably researching it already).
    Taj Mahal, with Marble and several production cities is a reasonable build. The golden age really is an extra one: next GA will only require 1 GP to trigger. If you have the opportunity, you may want to trigger a GA while building the Taj, so as to hasten the build. It would also be nice to have gold in bank when you enter your GA, so you could deficit research all the way through it. That or those golden age(s) will power you up to the military tech of your choice (same can't be said of Observatories, a good build otherwise).
    Nationalism unlocks Mil Trad and Constitution. Both techs offer very nice benefits.

    So... to me, Nationalism is a clear pick, here.


    You mention Galleons and Airships... They're very good units but they're support units. A stack of Airships doesn't do much by itself. They mostly act as siege for a mounted stack. Likewise, Galleons most notably give range to 1-movers.
    Better get the offensive units first and then the support units. Same goes for Frigates: they do an excellent job at attacking coastal cities (I've built a handful myself, by 1300 AD) but they can't replace Cuirassiers/Riflemen/Cavalries/Canons.

    First target: the top dog?
    I don't think it's a good idea. With that many AIs, if you attack one of the top AIs, another is bound to leap forward in techs. You'd have to sacrifice a lot of research to get the necessary production to crush a large AI. Meanwhile, it'd be hard to control other AIs (unless somehow a world war starts).
    You "just" have 9 cities. I think it'd be way more secure to double that count before attacking any contender. Kill/vassal 1, 2, 3 or even 4 AIs and then it would be much less of a gamble to attack Zara/Joao. Myself, I plan to kill 2 AIs before considering anything that daring.
    Key part, here, is that you want to keep the means to "monitor" the AIs. Attacking the weaker AI would (could? should?) leave you the means to keep up with the top AIs.
    Bottom line: Taking down one of the top AIs is a good move when it seals the game. Not when it leaves room for other AIs to take the top place.

    You've got all your chances left in that game. So good luck! However, beware, I'm not sure this is the right map for oh-so-super-fancy strategies.
     
  20. Izuul

    Izuul Level 86

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    GLH went in 2000BC in my game.
     

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