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Deity Graduate School IV

Discussion in 'Civ4 - Strategy & Tips' started by ben-jammin, Jun 6, 2013.

  1. King Pluto

    King Pluto Emperor

    Joined:
    Feb 16, 2009
    Messages:
    313
    Location:
    Massachusetts
    My first Deity win! 1470 Conquest with Cuirs/Cav.

    Spoiler :
    I played through three times; the first time, I didn't expand enough (trouble with barbs, boy they enter territory early) and even though I won Lib at 300 AD, my 5-city empire was too small to produce enough mounted units to take out more than just Wang before everyone got Rifles arounds 1100 AD.

    The second time, I expanded harder (got the Stone city in the west and the Rice/Crab city in the east) but over-taxed my core cities with whipping. Around 1 AD, I had a lot of size 3-4 cities with no GPP, so I quit since I was too far from Lib to leverage it into a win.

    The third go-around, I hit a good balance between the two. I missed out on the Stone city, but I got the Cow and Rice/Crab spots in the east and expanded north to get 9 cities. I had less of an issue with barbs this time than the rest too (made sure to get a few more spawn-busters out for the north.

    I went Ag/Mining/BW/AH/Wheel/Pottery/Writing/Aesthetics. Settled the Gems spot first, then kept growing to size 6 for Settler whips and built Phalanx/Library/Granary to grow back. I got beaten to the Stone spot, but grabbed the Cow in the east, the Rice/Clam spot one turn before Darius, a city 3W of the cap to work cottages/Horses and farms, and one more north to seal off the north with culture. I filled in two more north and one NE of Athens to share the Corn and Iron. I made sure to get Libraries up quickly everywhere and run Scientists so I wouldn't fall behind in the race to mounted.

    Diplo was probably what saved me, because I Libbed MT around 600 AD and attacked Wang at around 900 AD (IIRC). Wang/Darius/FDR were Buddhist, while Monty/Peter/HC were all Hindu. Wang had the Stone city so he was more of a target for Peter/HC than I, so they went for him, and for some reason Monty DOW'd FDR just for kicks. At one point 5 of the 6 were at war with two other AIs. I stayed out of it, got to MT, whipped the hell out of my cities, and rolled to a pretty easy mounted win (though Rifles still came pretty quickly for the AI, I had the numbers at that point). I went Wang/Darius/Roosevelt/HC/Peter/Monty for the win (basically going for the next-closest person to Rifiling at all times).

    This was a fun map. I love Pericles' traits, when I was moving to Immortal he was one of my favorites as I adjusted to how fast I needed to get Libraries built and GScientists to bulb.
     
  2. BornInCantaloup

    BornInCantaloup Agent of Chaos

    Joined:
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    Location:
    Cantaloupe Island
    Thanks for hosting, here's my write-up, to end: 1605 AD Domination.
    It was an enjoyable map, with many outs to the handful of not-so-common difficulties.

    Spoiler :
    Tl;dr
    Used Elephants. Did elepult but that was no phantarush. It was a bust in preparation for a full war. So we elepulted into a trebuphant war. Later with mounted support, we adopted a formation of the pikatreb variety. Finally, we were using an advanced deployment, derived from the pikacannon corpus... when we went in for the kill.


    Highlights:



    Settling:
    Could get another city (6th!) on the northern peninsula but I had to share it with Wang.
    After Civil Service, I settled two filler cities to make up for our small sizes and one of them contributed a little culture on the Persian borders.
    Spoiler :





    Diplo:
    The Confucean block is to the East, formed of Darius and Roosevelt. They will build the AP (which we will eventually control), lead the tech race and be easy friends. They're sitting on 7 cities each and are no danger. Diplo is enough to secure the East (I'll keep the option open for the longest time); use critical mass if need be (what it ended up being).
    West is more explosive with all 3 ancient religions and Montezuma + (large) Peter to declare and win wars against tiny Huayna or protective (and large) Wang.
    Controlling the chaotic west will very certainly win the map. So Wang is the first target: he is the largest AI but he will be caught up in wars and isn't too advanced.

    Sidenote: We're not getting the army ultra super fast. There are several wars to be waged and we want to keep the means to transition into next generation wars. So we're slowly working on getting to critical mass, building resilient units.

    Late BCs, essential wonders are built, clarifying the war/peace, friend/foe situation:
    Spoiler :


    Game states in the making:
    Spoiler :





    Techs:
    HBR, Construction, Engineering, Steel are the tech targets and I did mostly beeline Engineering, trading for the likes of Currency and Civil Service.

    Major detours:
    After failing the GLH, Sparta had the population to work on a 2nd GP, so a detour was made for Code of Laws after Metal Casting was researched (425 BC) to bulb Philo, found Taoism and put a dent in the AIs tech pace. Then it was ok to go for Machinery (researched 200 BC).
    Medieval war + little commerce output = drop in tech is expected, better not sacrifice too much, too early. Main tech objective is to remain “reasonably backwards”.
    In the same manner, once we had control over marble, Nationalism has been prioritized over Liberalism (a lost cause, Roosevelt and Darius having Paper from very early on). Taj Mahal would be lost to Peter by 2 or 3 turns, however, so that didn't fully pay out.
    At that point, having Engineering, Civil Service, Nationalism, we're going for Education (part bulbed), Constitution, Chemistry and then Steel. Detour via Liberalism is a fail trade with Roosevelt (lost 2-3 trades reaching a tech only a few turns after him).

    Sidenote: Overall we didn't develop a great economy but could remain in the tracks of the AIs. 2 Golden Ages did help; 2 others were missed.
    Wang Kon brought us our 2 only wonders: Pyramids and Mausoleum of Mausoles. Didn't get a hold of Shrines.


    Brokering:
    CoL researched, two turns to bulb Philo:
    Spoiler :


    Letting go of Philo monopoly to get Civil Service & Feudalism. The tech won't spread at lightning speed with these trades:
    Spoiler :



    Essential buildings:
    Relied on Libraries, Odeons and Barracks in the Classical era. Forges and Confucean Monasteries in the Medieval. Then Courthouses and Jails in the Renaissance.

    I spent very little time in Bureaucracy, favouring Vassalage. So Athens ended up hosting the Heroic Epic. Seoul would host the National Epic. Both Epics were up late, in the 500 or 600 AD range.


    Civics:
    2680 BC: Slavery (1t anarchy).
    50 AD: Vassalage, Hereditary Rule (1t anarchy).
    720 AD: Representation, Bureaucracy, Caste System, Mercantilism, Organized Religion (GA).
    1080 AD: Theocracy, Vassalage (GA)
    1190 AD: Organized Religion (GA)
    1540 AD: Theocracy, Nationhood (GA).

    Once the second Golden Age ended, I was running Representation, Vassalage, Caste System, Mercantilism, Organized Religion and I kept these civics for the longest time (except for BCs in Slavery only).
    A little more of Theocracy would have been nice but OR kept us afloat economically. 3rd GA was triggered very late game (1530 AD).


    Lay of the land:
    Spoiler :









    Warring:

    Wang Kon: we were ready to attack around 1 AD.
    Huayna Capac declared war on Wang, so a) we had a little help; b) the attack was delayed a bit to give Wang's troops the time to move towards the Incans; and c) it was very safe: we could get to critical mass and faced reduced resistance.
    Soon after we DoWed, Peter declared war on poor Wang and Montezuma (now at peace with Peter...) backstabbed Huayna Capac. Our armies mostly went south (capital, wonders), which let Peter capture a city in the north.

    Initial force; we have crossbows and trebuchets for reinforcements:
    Spoiler :


    Doom of Seoul:
    Spoiler :

    1 more city capture and Wang would capitulate. Couldn't really bribe Peter out of the war, so I took Wang as a (mostly useless) vassal. He offered Guilds in the deal, which was nice.


    DoWed Incans and they immediately vassaled to Peter, so I had to organize a lengthy retreat (eventually losing all this offensive stack but delaying long enough to build up... overwhelming reinforcements). This is a retreat:
    Spoiler :


    Peter, who had lots of knights and elephants soon had Cuirassiers and went on the offensive. He ended up capturing some cities back, notably the last northern city from Wang Kon. This is as far as you go, Peter:
    Spoiler :


    Under Vassalage/theocracy, we could use highly promoted pikemen to counter Peter's mostly mounted army. Pikemen bust comes cheap vs Cuirassiers.
    Frontline secured:
    Spoiler :


    From this point we had Steel and proceeded to build up inevitability:
    Spoiler :


    Peter is doomed and he was the last relevant AI. You know things are going well when your siege has over 90% odds in the first attack. Athens did build many CRIII canons, so we had those odds. CRII canons that other cities built had lots of very respectable odds (80-70% range).

    I had to make peace with Huayna in order to vassal Peter, which wouldn't place me in a good position to hold cities. So I made peace with Huayna and liberated Russian cities, getting a strong vassal in Peter.
    Next, Monty/Huayna capitulated after the first city capture. And so, the west of the map was secured on 1460 AD.
    Spoiler :


    Still 10% land needed for Domination. That's what one gets for not holding cities. Now, time to move across the continent and have a kill or two. Cannons finally lost their invulnerability in the face of Infantries, CRIII cannon has about 40% odds against an infantry. However, with natural 30% retreat chances, C2 Pinch Cavalries easily reach 60% survival odds against Infantries.

    Can you do it, Darius, Roosevelt? Mostly, they couldn't resist the million man army.
    Spoiler :





    Graphs & Stats:
    Spoiler :




     
  3. BornInCantaloup

    BornInCantaloup Agent of Chaos

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    Well done :)
    Spoiler :
    1470 is a pretty good date, things must have been going well.

    Diplo is indeed very generous on this map: all peacemongers except for two extra far AIs who won't like each other.
     
  4. ben-jammin

    ben-jammin Emperor

    Joined:
    Jan 12, 2011
    Messages:
    1,436
    Wow, nice date for any win let alone your first. Looks like you pulled off a pretty perfect mounted breakout win here.
     
  5. shakabrade

    shakabrade Praise Vivec!

    Joined:
    May 23, 2011
    Messages:
    1,900
    Location:
    Croatia
    Random thoughts:

    Spoiler :
    A classic, 4 city HA rush followed by Cuir rush.
    Why just 4 cities? Because there weren't any other cities which would contribute more than they'd be a drag on a rush date (the earlier the better). Cities can contribute to this either by research or by production power. Since all other good locations were so far they were a drag to research and far from front line, 4 cities were enough.

    Attacked Persia first because Persia researches and trades like crazy and I don't like games which go out of control. Roosy trades too much too so he was next. It is worth mentioning Persia, America, Korea and Greece were in Judaism. Three techers in a lovefest is generally not a great idea.

    Also, wonders like Mids, MoM and GLH, later even Colossus (which was built for me during war) were nice addition for expanding empire. Then went after Inca and WK. Victory date would have been much better if I went straight for conquest but Inca were advanced (had Grenadiers). I usually like to kill the tech leader just for fun of it although he is willing to capitulate for quite some time (I wish there was ''salt the ground'' button). It is all part of deity level esotery.

    There was a bit tight race for Liberalism. I expected to get GM for financing my research plus a few elephant->cuir upgrades but got GSpy. Luckily, it was put to a good use as he has stolen Nationalism and allowed me to Lib MT around 780AD. If I went after Inca or Peter first, Darius or WK would have gotten Lib around 300-400AD mos def.


    And screnies:

    Spoiler :







     
  6. BornInCantaloup

    BornInCantaloup Agent of Chaos

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    Spoiler :
    So you took out Darius and Roosevelt with maybe 30 horse archers and 15 elephants? Had conquered Washington city by 275 AD. Harvested techs in the process. Got great spy from Persepolis! Could steal/bulb into Liberalism and stomp again?
    Nice blitz! Nicely handled. I like the late kill of Darius/Roosevelt (presumably with Cuirassiers?).
    Small "pangaea" needs no techs, right? Neat game. Were you in any danger at any time? How were the spearmen?


    What about your initial attack force/date?
    What about civics? Was that all slavery? Did you mix in GAs?
    You did forgo commerce (so did I, to an extent, but I didn't go that heavy on early production), how heavy did you go on GPs?
     
  7. shakabrade

    shakabrade Praise Vivec!

    Joined:
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    Location:
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    Commerce was taken care of by capturing cities and research rate with number of cities. GP's weren't used as much as they should have been (Maths bulb, 1 Edu, 1 Lib, no academy, 1 GAge, 1 Spy). A misplay.

    Hope there is enough info. I played this game from the day it was posted, but RL is hard on me and doesn't allow long, concentrated turn sets. Therefore excuse me if I don't remember something. I am willing to share my knowledge.

    Cheers!
     
  8. Manco Capac

    Manco Capac Friday,13 June,I Collapse

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    Excellent game as ever, shaka. Wouldn't want see a focused one...he would blow the 1000 AD threshold. :goodjob:
     
  9. shakabrade

    shakabrade Praise Vivec!

    Joined:
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    Messages:
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    Location:
    Croatia
    Hello, old friend, and thanks!:)

    I will never play a focused game because I don't want to see what would my best be (maybe not good enough for my expectations, same with IQ test).

    1000AD is possible with pure Cuir breakout and taking capitulations as soon as they are offered. Capital site is fantastic, second city too, traits too. 200AD Cuirs are more than possible. Requires a lot of thinking and microing.

    Nonetheless, this game has shown much can be achieved solely with ok grand strategy.


    Edit: Sorry I seem to ignore other games. What I can say is that there is too much focus on beating Wang Kon first. He is close and a wimp and can be killed any time. If you take care of him first (if not total war), you are losing control of the game. Persia or Inca should be the targets. Also, people tend to hate WK and he is a shield against Monty and HC DOWs (sometimes he doesn't even open borders with Monty :)). Now, if you aren't too comfortable with balancing war and research, WK is a good choice cause he is a good vassal.

    @King Pluto
    Fantastic date for the first win! My first deity victory was with Hatty in 1800's.

    @BiC
    AIs ran off but you managed to take them out with inferior units cause you know everything about winning a war - siege. What crippled your date was choice of the target. Darius is much easier to kill cause front is narrow and you can easily turn back and kill Wang afterwards with survivors from Persia + all the units produced in core cities next to the target (much less time and unit maintenance wasted on movement). This way, with 1 move units. you gave them time to get all the way to infantry. Still, you managed to get a good date.
     
  10. ben-jammin

    ben-jammin Emperor

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    Damn Shaka, nice one. Just when I think I have things figured out you show why my strategy didnt make any sense.

    Spoiler :
    In hindsight you couldn't be more right, first target should be Darius and had I done that I could of course have taken Roosevelt as well and still won Lib. As I did it taking Wang took too long, cost more units (protective), got a good amount of land but set me back quite a lot. Plus in my game Roosevelt had the GLighthouse and Pyramids if I recall.

    Stupid decision. I guess I thought that WK was going to declare on me anyway, sharing so many borders and not being able to expand anymore.
     
  11. BornInCantaloup

    BornInCantaloup Agent of Chaos

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    Spoiler :
    I know everything about winning a war? No, no :lol: But I did do it right, this time. With good quality siege and critical mass. Critical mass I can assess but often disregard. This time I played it safe, as you used to do.
    Horse archers would be a unit I'm unfamiliar with (Vicawoo's guide I know about but the conquering...). Warriors, too. Late stuff, too. Knights/trebs I know.

    You're right that my victory date was delayed by the flow of the game. Thus,
    @war targets, you say:
    I don't know how true that is. Taking out Darius & Roosevelt first is interesting and a fine way to combine warring + Liberalism race. It's also good in the sense that you're attacking the easier targets first, so you can attack earlier/with less risks. It does make a lot of sense to conquer the East first.
    However, the Western part of the map is enough to ensure Domination. True, in this case, one is going head on with the most difficult areas. But this is the small map on which you took out 2 AIs with Horse Archers ;)

    What delayed me:
    1st I didn't attack asap. I was getting trebuchets at DoW date. One would need to attack earlier to make a meaningful comparison with your game.
    Couldn't kill Wang Kon due to shared war with Peter.
    Couldn't capture Incan/Russian cities (a screen in "Russian war" shows the backfill locations I had planned in Incan territory). That forced me to go east afterwards.
    Faced Peter with peace vassal, right after he stole Taj Mahal from me, right before he'd get Cuirassiers. Not a great timing.
    Got 2 Great Engineers in a row that delayed the 3rd golden age for a long time (minor).

    All in all: west is the harder but also the more compact part of the map. If it's all about saving travelling time, then going East first isn't clearly best. It's certainly a defensible option, though, as you've shown :goodjob:
    Very interesting that you bulbed Maths, by the way.
     

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