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Deity level sucks

Discussion in 'Civ3 - General Discussions' started by kryszcztov, May 29, 2003.

  1. Borealis

    Borealis Northern Light

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    AlanH, 'no barbarians' means no goody huts, which the AI can pop at Deity level much more safely than non-expansionist player civs.
     
  2. kryszcztov

    kryszcztov Deity

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    :D :D :D
    Hum, I still have to get some of the new features in my head. I'm still scared to death when I see barbarians, but they can't take any town. :o Mmmh, a good tactic would be to leave a town defended by an injured unit to a barbarian warrior, wouldn't it ? Therefore, you just lose gold (hope I don't have much) or production (ditto), but you keep your unit. That's what happened in GOTM 19 : I lost my warrior, and before the town had built another one, a roaming Carthaginian warrior just declared war on me... just to destroy the city. And then I lost another city... off-topic...

    Well, I started another game, with the Iroquois. And until now it has just been about war, war and war. My culture is bad, my economy too, my science is 10 techs behind (except that with the wars I can catch up a bit). And BTW both the Pyramids and the Great Library were built on another continent. :mad: So I think I'm gonna go warmongering and betraying through all the game. So why play Civ3, where there are so many war games out there ? Ok, I stop. :D :o

    Thanks BillChin, I'll have a look at those games you mentionned. I think I've already read the Deity Settlers, but I'm gonna look at this again.

    Oh, I might want to play multiplayer someday, maybe it's worth the try. But how do they manage reputation if there are only humans ? ;)
     
  3. hotrod0823

    hotrod0823 Deity

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    Turning off barbs also means no barb camps - each worth 25 gold. Early in the game that is can be worth 50-100% of your treasury and allow faster research for you and the AI. Camps can be cash cow or come the end of the era a nightmare.
     
  4. kryszcztov

    kryszcztov Deity

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    I'm not happy. :( Last night I started another Deity game with the Greeks, because I wanted an excellent (and cheap) defensive unit, I wanted gold and the free techs.

    I think I made my best start ever at this level, but I soon found out this would be a tough game. I made good trading choices and I could match the AI until the end of the Ancient Era. I had a nice little core of cities (thanks to the feeling I got, that is not to build a settler factory), but I was quickly surrounded by 3 neighbours. I had no luxes in my territory, and had one horse and one iron (that I got hooked up a bit late).
    Then I made 2 errors, that cost me the game IMHO. There were Republic and Feodality being available IIRC, everyone had Republic but half the civs had Feodality, or sthg... I don't know why, but I bought Republic at a high price and fell straight away into Anarchy, only to find that with no gold in my pocket, I was going bankrupt (I thought that the Anarchy actually paid for the loans). So I had to start the war with the Americans, just to be freed of the loan, and they soon brought along the 2 other neighbours. I lost some frontier cities, but, thanks to the golden age (started under Anarchy !), I was able to crank out one hoplite per turn in my capital. But what can you do against 3 armies that are each bigger than you. Even though I have been lucky with the RnG (for once !), I could not resist long enough, and soon many units entered my territory and pillaged the horse source, cut the iron road, and main roads... So I was left with hoplites and archers, and I had to quit the game.
    So one error (buying the wrong tech, because I suppose I would have got the other one too) followed by another one (Anarchy), and that was it for my hopes. Oh, I forgot : of course the Great Library was built at the opposite of the continent ; I once thought of a "crusade" to capture it, but that was when the hard times come.

    I'm sad : you need PERFECT playing to be sure to win at this level. I was very disappointed when I went to sleep at 8am... :( ;)

    Oh, and I read Sirp's Epic 4 : what a game !! I guess I would have given up playing many times at the beginning too, but what a story ! :)
     
  5. BillChin

    BillChin Prince

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    With iron, horses and hoplites a better idea would have been to build an offensive army and beat some techs out of the weakest AI. Perhaps bribing one of the them to ally with you after getting the first enemy city, if you are not that strong. The gold spent on Republic would upgrade a lot of warriors to swordsmen, Chariots to Horsemen or buy you an ally.

    Going to Republic without any luxuries is a poor idea. Three luxuries is my rule of thumb for Republic. Switching governments for a non-religious civ, is a critical part of the game on any level. Next time you will know better. Live and learn.

    The June Game-of-the-Month is Deity level as Spain. Civ 1.29f players can participate by downloading some add ons, PTW expansion is not required, though it does make it easier to setup the game files. Cracker usually shapes the map to give us a way out of the maze, so I recommend all players give it a go.
    + Bill
     
  6. AlanH

    AlanH Mac addict, php monkey Moderator Hall of Fame Staff Supporter GOTM Staff

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    No. Your injured unit should run and hide, because it will get killed first and then they'll raid your treasury as well.
    If you just keep your treasury at one or two gold then the barbs will only take that. Leave your early cities undefended unless there's a big bad civ on the prowl.
     
  7. farting bob

    farting bob ThEy MaDe Me Do iT.

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    how about if they make mroe complicated AI, using more programmers and more early testing, then make the lower levels have the human more obvious advantages, but with a smarter AI that will help the beginers learn how to do it wll, thn when they move upm, the human loses its advantage until the AI has a advantage of emperor sort of size, but with a smarter AI withis will challenge the best of the best more than dumb AI (if thats not a contraditction in terms) does at deity level now.
     
  8. kryszcztov

    kryszcztov Deity

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    @ BillChin : Hum, in fact when iron eventually got hooked up, I was already facing my 3 enemies, do you see why I never had a chance to go on offensive ? I should have built archers, but there were too many swordsmen, medieval infantries...
    Noted about going into Republic. I thought of delaying the Anarchy transition a little first, but I really wanted the gold bonus to pay my loans and build up my treasury as well. That's when I realized about the bankrupt ! :eek: So you think it was worth staying in Despotism (Monarchy was not there yet) for a first battle ? Nice idea...

    @ AlanH : That's what I meant, actually : move the injured warrior away from the town and wait for the barbarian to pillage it. One question : I hate to "lose" turns (and so locations, and so power, and so the game) building warriors to escort my settlers, but we have to. So how can your secondary cities be undefended if you escort the settlers ? (I assume you do.)

    @ farting bob : I'm with you, man, but we have to understand that we're only in the early 21st century, so we can't expect a great AI yet. :(

    About GOTM 20 : Now I'm sure I will play it ! :) (see cracker's post on the main page) I'll have to pratice more before getting into this one.

    General thought about the AI in Deity : Being the AI, I would found my 2 cities, start improving the land, and take at least half of my 12 units (I think that is 12 units, if you don't count workers and settlers) to destroy the human player in 3000bc. Sometimes my territory is undefended, a warrior roams nearby, and instead of capturing my capital, he just goes away, because he is "polite" or something. Now (excuse me, I bring back my chess comparison) ask a chess program what he would do !!! ;) Of course the AI may not know that I AM the human player (I doubt it) and what is going on in my cities (I doubt it too, sometimes he would go to the other side of my continent just because there is one city less defended : eh how do you know that, little AI ?). But still, the AI does not "think" with logic (even logic of risk).

    One question about diplomacy : In Civ2 you couldn't send an emissary each turn because after a short while the AI would be tired of seeing you (even if we were friendly mates). It surely isn't the same in Civ3, but : can you send an emissary whenever you want (except at the beginning of a war), as many times as you want, to "examine the market" ? It is recommended to see each AI each turn in Deity, so I ask...
     
  9. AlanH

    AlanH Mac addict, php monkey Moderator Hall of Fame Staff Supporter GOTM Staff

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    Sometimes I escort a settler, sometimes not. On a short journey, if I'm infilling or building a close-packed city network she can safely go unescorted (they look like women - is that just me?). On a longer journey I'd normally try to meet her with an exploring warrior and escort her. Then I'll decide whether to fortify the escort or move him on for more exploration according to what most needs to be done
    It doesn't seem to matter, and I think it's essential at Deity. Sometimes I'll visit leaders several times during one turn if I'm too lazy to write down or remember the goodies they have for sale, apparently without upsetting them. Oh, and you can leave a leader in mid-conversation by hitting Escape. When you return, the negotiating table is still set up the way you left it, even after you've finished the previous negotiating turn.
     
  10. AlanH

    AlanH Mac addict, php monkey Moderator Hall of Fame Staff Supporter GOTM Staff

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    Ahah, thanks, Borealis. I've become so wary of popping huts myself during Deity practice that I'd forgotten that the AI doesn't have so much of a problem. Although now I think about it, I'm sure I've seen the AI leave them alone for a while as well. Maybe the AI "knows" whether a hut will be worth popping or not?
     
  11. Sirp

    Sirp Emperor

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    Yes of course, but that really would make Deity unbeatable now wouldn't it?

    What exactly would the point of that be?

    There is an ishuman() function in the code, but I would imagine that the programmer would refrain from calling it unless absolutely necessary.

    Also, the AI is not meant to have the goal of killing the human player. The AI is meant to have the goal of winning the game itself. Soren Johnson, the AI programmer, has specifically said that the AI does NOT use the humanity of a civilization as a reason for or against war. Doing so would simply not be fair, and would not correctly meet the goals of the AI.

    Going by your argument, all the AIs should always declare war on the human player immediately, and never make peace or trade with her. That is the best way to 'beat' the human.

    But, that'd be silly...

    -Sirp.
     
  12. Nad

    Nad Known Troublemaker

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    Why this obsession with the Pyramids and Great Library on Deity? I say forget about them! Don't even bother to try building them, and don't go out of your way to capture them. In fact, going to war on deity at any point before the industrial age, is normally asking for major trouble. By far the route that offers you most chance of success on deity is to play quietly and keep your head down - cave into AI demands, let them have their wars with each other, while you concentrate on building your empire. It requires you to play catch-up on technology, and you may well end up an era behind, but remeber, Civ 3's trading and research program is designed to make it easier to catch-up than to lead.

    One little thing I have noticed in the few games that I've played on deity: on other levels, the instinct with the first few settlers you build is to go for high food, bonus resource areas. On deity, however, I've had far more success only sending my first couple of settlers to secure food-rich areas, and then using other settlers to gain as many resources as possible, especially luxes. I also try to buy into iron-working and the wheel as quickly as feasible so I can try to get the strategic resources as well. The benefit you gain from having resources to trade far outweighs the cost of not having so many food-rich sites, IMO...
     
  13. Vandervekken

    Vandervekken Chieftain

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    hmm.
    I've only played on Emperor or deity a few times and the biggest beef, for me, is not the extra units or even the extra production, but rather the unfair AI to AI trading rate. I think at default it is at 160% - meaning that when the AI trade together they basically give each other 60% extra. This is why you can get ahead by a couple of techs. relax for a few turns and then find out that they have all gone a couple of techs ahead in only about 20 turns! I find this intensely irritating.
    I also hate the agression of the AI on higher levels. they all start out hating your guts, and if you get a lead on them someone declares war. Then the next turn all the others seem to spot that you are in trouble and declare war themselves and you end up with 3 or 4 neighbours charging all their extra units in.
    Btw i find the best way to get a good start is to play as an expansionist race (i'm English so...). That way you always get the best out of goody huts, and your first few units are scouts, so you get both a big map and free techs (from the huts).
    having said all that i'm definitely going to try the Spain GOTM on open level. what's a game if it is no challenge. {boring zzzzzz}
    I agree that the AI needs a bit of work, especially with strategy during wars, but i disagree that it would put people off, how many people play at the top levels anyway? The goal surely, should be to have an AI so damn good that the human player needs to have production bonuses at lower levels, and it's a level playing field on deity!
    The AI seems to make so many elementary mistakes when moving its units that i'm sure there must be a way to improve it. At least it could be programmed to use human patterns of movement, such as keeping faster units with the slower BUT HIGHER DEFENCE ones so they don't just get creamed, using artillery on cities in later ages when even MA smash against big cities like water, not building thousands of naval units. Keeping their armies together against one target instead of just a big messy border charge etc etc. WHY DO THEY ATTACK WORKERS INSTEAD OF MILITARY UNITS SO MUCH?
     
  14. kryszcztov

    kryszcztov Deity

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    Well, the point is that, unfortunately (but it has to be), most of the time you don't have to think according to your logic but according to the AI's logic. This is what makes the game less interesting than with a better AI. Now we have to play with it... But with the greatest AI we could once imagine (I fully support you, Vandervekken), yes we could have a great Deity level where we would have to play on an even field, not with bonuses ; wow, that makes me feel chilly... ;) DEITY LEVEL : PLAY ON AN EVEN FIELD AND TRY TO BEAT THE AI ! :nuke: Ok man, I put my brain in my head, and let's see what the AI can do !!...................... [nice dream]

    Oh, I will play GOTM 20 in the open class, because Predator is suicide for me now, and because I want to learn from this game (I will play QSC too, that will be very useful, I hope), so I don't want those little bonuses of the Conquest class to disturb me.
     
  15. Vandervekken

    Vandervekken Chieftain

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    We have to dream or life will just go on sucking...;)
     
  16. RegentMan

    RegentMan Deity

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    Check out Sullla's Civ III site. A lot of his games are on Deity, and he didn't go to war very much, but still won! It's a very good read, as is Sirian's site.
    *Sullla's Site
    *Sirian's site
     
  17. shadow2k

    shadow2k Emperor

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    I've only played 2 Emperor games, and won both. I just finished my first Deity attempt, in a Diplomatic Victory in 1505 AD.

    I was only involved in 1 war, if you can call it that. I allied against the Americans so that a couple civs would go gracious towards me, assuring their votes. They only had two cities, so I loaded up a transport with 8 tanks and destroyed them the turn before finishing the UN, making sure to bribe all the civs who would not be eligible to win.

    I probably could have won without any war. I gave in to all demands early, and there was only one after the middle ages. I declined to submit to the demands of the damn Aztecs...I hate those guys. They backed down from their bluff.

    Deity is completely possible to win without war. It's unusual from what I've heard, but I know it can be done, I could have done it.

    The thing about Civ 3 (I've only been playing a month) is that all the new guys get caught up in one pattern...like the settler factory. They see a strategy, and try to apply it the same way in ever situation. You can get away with it at lower levels, but on Deity, you have to understand how the game works. Know what affects what, and be able to adapt. You can't always mine this and irrigate that...sometimes you can get better results by going against the grain and micro-managing your cities.

    A great example is Cracker's Civ3 opening play site that you can find in the war academy, along with many other useful articles. It shows you how to actually learn, and not just mimic what you see. Once you've learned how to actually understand, judge, and play effectively, you'll be able to handle Deity much better.

    I'd suggest reading that article and fully understanding the concepts in it...they are applied throughout the game, not just starting out. Also, try reading through some of the Succession Games or Training Games. You get to see their moves from beginning to end, along with the reasons they give for what they do. Watching the better known players is a great way to learn. I'd suggest trying to get in on a game if you can...I would, but I only have vanilla Civ3, and most use PTW.

    Anyways, keep trying to learn more, and you'll find that the bonuses the AI gets can be overcome. Sure, catching up can be frustrating at times, but it makes it all the better when you leave them in the dust!
     
  18. Goonie

    Goonie Lonely End of the Rink

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    Why don't you play on Emperor instead?
     
  19. a space oddity

    a space oddity Deity GOTM Staff

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    @Shadow2k: let me be the first to welcome you to this board. Wow, only played for a month and already a Deity win, hats off to you! :goodjob:
     
  20. Aggie

    Aggie Deity

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    Krys, don't get discouraged too soon. Read the HOT3 succession game and see how a couple of newbie deity players beat the AI from a not so good starting position.

    I admit, we had a catching-up game, but that's the way it is at Deity. You won't be able to keep up in tech until somewhere in the middle ages or later.

    My advice: join a (all newbie deity?) deity SG and have a lot of fun!
     

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