[GS] Deity - Loyalty - warmongering

darkangelx

Chieftain
Joined
Jun 1, 2007
Messages
12
So I have played Gilgamesh for a bit now. I enjoy the fun of warcarts early game. I just cant seem to keep cities on Deity - or push hard/fast enough to negate the flipping cities, which means in order to not get attacked from behind, I have to keep a force capable of taking the city back.

Should I just start razing them to the ground? My whole point is to expand, and with no walls I should easily be able to wipe out this civ, but just cant push and defend.

I have been reading lots of info here and never used chopping so I dont know when to do it, when not to, what to use it on etc. I know I am clearly missing something that would allow me win on deity, but I just cant seem to figure it out. Videos on youtube have been not so helpful since most of them are out of date. User Victory here is awesome, I love your posts. They are insightful.

I easily destroyed emperor and even immortal with warcart rush but Deity, i just cant keep cities I take. It's holding me back and I am not sure what to do other than just not go to war, which defeats the purpose of even playing an early game civ.

Should I hang up Gigamesh and try someone else for deity? Is chopping the best way to pass the AI in science? I have been selling my single luxuries for 1-200 gold to the AI for cash after reading it here. I dont do religion ever.

It seems I am out of my depth on Deity where immortal seemed easy. Warriors having the same strength as my warcarts hurts.
 
I have the same trouble with Gilgamesh on deity. I do wonderfully with him on emperor and below, but with deity not so much so. I suppose the trick is skirmish early with warcarts, settle another city or two, build a bunch of builders, stick Magnus in a city with stone and woods, play the maneuver card, wait until there is just 1 turn to build a warcart, then chop. You can get overflow still if it's the same unit. So, if you have like 4 or more builders you can chop up a bunch of warcarts back to back to back. For deity you need A BUNCH of them to put the cities under siege. You'll also need to retreat wounded carts and have fresh replacements to continue. What good is it to put a city down to 25% only to have to retreat because your "almost enough" force of warcarts cannot continue?

I find also that a couple of archers can make all the difference for clearing mostly dead, but not quite dead AI units. This spares the warcarts damage (and attendant time to heal).
 
I haven't choped warcarts in, maybe thats what I need. I tend to get Magnus before maneuver.

I go builder , scout, settler, slinger slinger slinger, warcart and use my 2nd city to build up buildings/more settlers. I usually dont have maneuver by the time im cranking out warcarts at least not the first one or two. I will try chopping some in to see if that helps my early game.

What about catching up on science? I really hate being behind and want to start to be equal if not passed the AI asap.
 
I haven't choped warcarts in, maybe thats what I need. I tend to get Magnus before maneuver.

I go builder , scout, settler, slinger slinger slinger, warcart and use my 2nd city to build up buildings/more settlers. I usually dont have maneuver by the time im cranking out warcarts at least not the first one or two. I will try chopping some in to see if that helps my early game.

What about catching up on science? I really hate being behind and want to start to be equal if not passed the AI asap.
I find builders and cities useful for Sumeria. A ziggurat next to a river in each city is not such a drain on production and supplies 2 science and 1 culture. Add monuments and Pingala and you may actually move too quickly through the civics tree.

What I do almost always is

1) Settle on a lux resource
2) Sell lux to AI
3) Buy warcart with AI’s gold
4) Consider DOW’ing AI and reselling to another AI

Produce settlers and builders for more lux resources to sell to AI.

Build warcarts as needed to defend vs. AI war. If AI doesn't show up @ your empire, go to the AI with a couple of warcarts or 3. Pillage and kill units. Don’t take cities unless there is a clear opportunity and can hold it. You’ll want to wait until you have an overwhelming force of warcarts, horses and a few ranged units to pick off wounded units and concentrate fire on swords. Peace with AI for a nice peace settlement/reparations. The peace settlement gets you gold and hobbles the AI's ability to grow.
Build more settlers and builders, settle another city (or two) close to the AI, sell lux resources to any AI that can afford them. Buy builders. Position builders, over 4 or 5 choppable resources, place Magnus, play the Maneuver card, chop out as many horse units as your strategic reserve will allow and a MASSIVE HORDE warcarts. Remember that overflow is only valid if you choose the same unit as you just chopped out.

Redeclare on AI.

Maybe declare on a different AI in the area if original AI’s reparations are incredibly good.

I hardly ever build early game units and prefer to use gold and fight relatively defensively. People argue this is not efficient. I find it strategically more sound than a simple tactical efficiency. I build settlers instead @ +50% from Colonization (I almost always go to Early Empire 1st) and use the gold bought units to escort and/or secure the area until I’m ready to roll over an opponent. I don’t win particularly quickly, but I generally win.

I almost always go builder/settler/monument. Or perhaps buy the monument and go builder/settler/settler. I almost always settle on top of a lux. Even with my 2nd and 3rd cities. Settling on top of a lux gives me more lux resources to sell to the AI without having to expend a builder charge (and access to a lux I cannot as yet even improve, as I haven't researched irrigation yet). I sell anything I can get my hands on for gold to the AI’s. I will buy builders with gold to improve lux resources in addition to the ones I settle on top of. You get the lux resource’s gold and bonus (faith/culture/science) and you get the gold to buy units.

Of course you’d adjust as needed based on map and circumstance, but I find this sort of thing works.

Edit: Oh yeah. That free warrior I get n the beginning of the game sets forth to meet civs and farm era score. Rarely does he return.

Edit2: As per the original point. I don't much care for Gilgamesh and deity. Maybe wait for knights?
 
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Hmm, I've only ever played as Rome, Sumeria and Victoria but only Sumeria on deity. Should I go another route? I usually win via domination and maybe thats my problem. I do settle on lux and sell to IA for 1-200 gold Maybe just not doing it right :D Ill try some of your stuff, ty for replying.
 
I have been reading lots of info here and never used chopping so I dont know when to do it, when not to, what to use it on etc. I know I am clearly missing something that would allow me win on deity, but I just cant seem to figure it out.
I would recommend as must reads
  1. Read the chopping example link at the bottom of this post
  2. Read my view on phases Here... it is roughly how efficient players play.
  3. Read the loyalty link below as well.
Loyalty is primarily being happy, if you get enough amenities before you attack it is a lot easier and this includes not growing your cities too large if that mean unhappiness..
The Coliseum helps in this regard a lot but it is not early game.
A lot of efficient players use Cavalry with a GG because as long as you can keep a city for a few turns you can take the next one. Then the cities help each other out with loyalty. Victors +4 also helps a lot now.
 
Hmm, I've only ever played as Rome, Sumeria and Victoria but only Sumeria on deity. Should I go another route? I usually win via domination and maybe thats my problem. I do settle on lux and sell to IA for 1-200 gold Maybe just not doing it right :D Ill try some of your stuff, ty for replying.
Nope, it's not you, it's Sumeria. I play deity all the time and have the same issues with Sumeria. Warcarts are, quite simply, too fragile for consistent winning on deity. Sumerian strategies for emperor that are REALLY effective and work most all the time on immortal fail on deity. The AI speeds through the tech tree and upgrades its units and walls too quickly. I'd try a run with Kupe. Those Tao don't require strategic resources and are essentially knights (or better when there are more of them).

I would recommend as must reads
  1. Read the chopping example link at the bottom of this post
  2. Read my view on phases Here... it is roughly how efficient players play.
  3. Read the loyalty link below as well.
Loyalty is primarily being happy, if you get enough amenities before you attack it is a lot easier and this includes not growing your cities too large if that mean unhappiness..
The Coliseum helps in this regard a lot but it is not early game.
A lot of efficient players use Cavalry with a GG because as long as you can keep a city for a few turns you can take the next one. Then the cities help each other out with loyalty. Victors +4 also helps a lot now.
I've seen the colosseum go pre T100 in like 3 of the last 4 games I've played since GS. I'm something of a colosseum fanatic, so I notice. Is this just random or has the AI prioritization matrix it changed in GS? I've also noted more early AI entertainment centers since GS.
 
Is this just random or has the AI prioritization matrix it changed in GS? I've also noted more early AI entertainment centers since GS.
No prioritisation change in the files I know of but I do not get deeply into the behaviour trees.
Yes ED do seem to be on the increase. I wonder if the developers saw the comments on how the AI filled their card slots with amenity cards and decided there was a ‘better’ way to do things.
Regardless they are very welcome. A big failing of ED is they need no production nor even be a loyal city to get full value out of a bread and circus project. It is often the best thing to run with in a newly taken city.

Key things about Sumeria is they can take a city very early so great right at the start, then cope as they deteriorate and you push toward knights.... like the Toa, one of the great advantages is they have no maintenance. This gives your civ more flexibility - buying power, better card choices, government choices... the civ gets goody hut bonuses from camps and very cheap levy costs... two ancient +4 era pointers and zigs on rivers are strong. Sumeria is not all about war carts, they have great bonuses all around. Use them all and you get more benefit.
 
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Key things about Sumeria is they can take a city very early so great right at the start, then cope as they deteriorate and you push toward knights.... like the Toa, one of the great advantages is they have no maintenance. This gives your civ more flexibility - buying power, better card choices, government choices... the civ gets goody hut bonuses from camps and very cheap levy costs... two ancient +4 era pointers and zigs on rivers are strong. Sumeria is not all about war carts, they have great bonuses all around. Use them all and you get more benefit.
That's the thing. I have issues taking and holding a city early without creating a MASSIVE SPAMbling horde of warcarts (the civ version of a shambling zombie horde). With the no maintenance cost, I'd imagine that's just the way the civ is meant to be played.
 
I have issues taking and holding a city
Ok I think I sussed it now.
There have been the odd time I will see a city and think I cannot hold it if I just take that 1 city.
In such a case I look at what can be pillaged from the city but normally I will hold off until I can take a few cities.
 
I just cant see how to not make science. I read the other post about the phases and I am just Ive read your posts that you say 7 cities by turn 70 but that is pretty rough. Should I also wait on walls? I noticed that in one game I waited and chops the last turn of walls and completed my campus in 1 turn after that. Was I supposed to chop that last turn again for library as well on the same turn?

Id love to see a video of your play in action.


I am also bad about manually setting citizens. Sometimes I force them to work a forest/hills instead of the zigurat, early on but I wonder if that is part of my problem. Do I need to micro more?

When I found a city and have writting unlocked, I drop a campus and change back to w/e I was building. What about commerce hub? Also place those and move on? When do you build/chop those? before or after campus? I just dont know the flow. I also feel im chopping too early? Is that even possible? I rarely aim for pyramids, but I assume chopping/culling stone is good to get it early game.

Game setup: standard across, continents. (should I change it?)

Early game civics I go to State Workforce( I never get the boost here; good? bad? normal?) to get Magus asap. Then Military tradition, then b-line to political philosophy, then feudalism.

Building, i start with builder, scout, settler if have pop, slinger if I dont, when I have pop, switch to settler and look for a lux to camp on. 2nd town, build monument and settlers asap. First city after 3 slingers, I start building warcarts. Should I focus more on builders/settlers instead?

Any good Deity videos you can recommend watching of game play?

Thanks again for the discussion and guidance.
 
Also what do ya do if you cant chop enough for campus/library/uni cause you dont haev enough trees? :D
 
Was I supposed to chop that last turn again for library as well on the same turn?
They nerfed chopping so you do not get everflow anymore. So do not try to chop last turn because you lose overflow, I forgot to mention this.
Do I need to micro more?
I do not, I prefer to be fast and make mistakes because I am fast but IDC
I also feel im chopping too early?
Lol, yes. Chopping has a feel to it, it can just feel like the right time. For example chopping at mercenaries not Feudalism is 3 morecivics worth of chops. Do not chop everything, just what you need, but certainly your key district. Chopping in food helps you get to 10 and with the harvest goddess so can help with faith generation also. Having your pop at 10 is stronger than having a university with rationalism.
Game setup: standard across, continents. (should I change it?)
It is what I use, some people use Pangea. Take your pick.
Also what do ya do if you cant chop enough for campus/library/uni cause you dont haev enough trees? :D
Wait.
Chopping is primarily to get your victory district in and pop to 10. Everything else is secondary.

Also... if you have 1 tree left and a Uni to build or a wonder...mod not chop at the start of the building. You know how much production your chop makes and it may increase before you can chop finish the building so chop when it will leave it at 1 turn or just finish it.

7 cities by turn 70 but that is pretty rough. Should I also wait on walls? I
Not really, I sometimes do not make it myself but often do.... no with Mali, yes with Alex. I do not wait on walls. The earlier, the faster, the better.

Online, the only very good player out there in English is Civtrader6, he uses all the tricks I discuss. He has been a key player in making these strategies.
 
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Online, the only very good player out there in English is Civtrader6, he uses all the tricks I discuss. He has been a key player in making these strategies.

He hasn't uploaded anything recent on Youtube for 1 year.
Not that there is anything wrong with it but he re-rolls a lot to get those perfect Youtube examples.
Some of those tricks are dated.
Is he Streaming Civ VI Gathering Storm?
Twitch I suppose?
Where can we go to learn his current information?
 
Some of those tricks are dated.
Only overflow is dated... I guess an archer rush is a tad harder.
The key thing is people finish things too early. It can be hard holding off.
Yes, they are perfect examples... it does seem to be a ‘fastest’ theme that is a little annoying.
The principles are there though, so I am not a fastest player but the principles they use could be deemed the most efficient which seems to be the closest ideal to successful play which is generally accepted.
I am not a streamer watcher @Fluphen Azine .. anyone you suggest? Marbozir?
 
Okay so reading what you said, pop to 10 is kinda rough because I am constantly building settlers to aim for the 7 cities at 70 turns (this is extremely hard for me). Also with those numbers of pop, dont you run into housing/happiness issues?

Also I started watching him and I think I see where I have being going wrong. I have been not building campuses completely at all but waiting for feudalism to chop them in. Even if the videos are dated, having a solid 3-4 mountains around a campus = build it and dont wait (based on watching his vids). Do you agree? I have also avoided buying tiles for campuses unless it looks like 3-4+ is 1-2 worth it?

Also I dont understand the need for the government plaza other than loyalty. I dont think ive ever built one - ever. Should I?
 
I am not a streamer watcher @Fluphen Azine .. anyone you suggest? Marbozir?

This is difficult because everyone plays different settings and many times when you find something that has an extremely fast finish the game or map is cooked in one way or another.
I never seen anyone play All Standard Settings with some Lower Tier Civ and do everything so perfect while playing blind.
Not that it isn't possible but its seems those players just don't stream or upload to Youtube.

Marbozir used to always play on Large or Huge Maps so the strategy and gameplay is different.
You can pick up good tips from his uploads though.

Even though @BarbarianHunter plays crazy settings I like to watch his commentary but he does tend to abuse the %(#$()* out of the AI in trade.
I find that funny to watch though.
I really love the way he comments on his game and what is going on.
It never gets old for me.

Many times when you watch someone playing a min/max style you will see all kind of backlash because of how they are playing.
Many players complain they are abusing the game but they don't understand or agree with that style.

My point wasn't to trash Civtrader6 or anyone in general.
Actually I haven't been able to find any content from him in about a year and I was hoping you or someone could post a link so I could watch more current games of his if he had them up.

For the most part all the streamers or youtubers are playing a less optimal game going for some sort of entertainment which is fine.
I can still learn something from watching all of them.
I just don't like when they play something like a Small Map and Cooked Settings and finish around turn 240 and think they are being optimal.
In the end most Streamers are trying to generate subs or cash flow in one way or another.
I refuse to watch them when they start re-rolling maps trying to get some perfect set up.
This is because I know the Top Players can get sub 200 on Standard no matter what map they roll.
The problem is I never seen those guys upload or stream Civ VI.

@Acken and a few others come to mind who can finish fast and have uploaded the games but that was Civ V.
Many of the Top Players who uploaded seem to have dismissed Civ VI.
 
Even though @BarbarianHunter plays crazy settings I like to watch his commentary but he does tend to abuse the %(#$()* out of the AI in trade.
I find that funny to watch though.
I really love the way he comments on his game and what is going on.
It never gets old for me.
Thank you for the upvote. I think we may approach the game in a similar manner as I enjoy your posts quite allot as well. Firaxis has put a damper on much of my early game trading with regards to trading, warring, trading to another civ, warring, rinse/repeat for any civs willing to trade. In fact with R&F sometimes I could stick it to the same civ twice with the same amenity. Gone are the days :lol:. The global grievances system now has significant repercussions even in the ancient era. Now-a-days I’ll tend to war 1 or 2 civs, use the gold for a monument or what-not and settle down and play a regular lux trade game.

I only declared 1 surprise war on Rome to steal a settler in this test game and had ample gold and a nice income the whole game. If circumstances call for more aggressive trading measures though, grievances be damned!
Spoiler :
Sid Meier's Civilization VI (DX11) 3_19_2019 5_41_14 PM.png
 
The key thing is people finish things too early. It can be hard holding off.
Can you elaborate a little? I understand leaving districts incomplete.
 
Holding captured cities has been an issue for me. In a lot of games I have gotten too greedy and end up trapped in a cycle of poor loyalty.

The importance of amenities in early conquest was something I had underestimated, as was the value of restraint. In my most recent game I spawned in a zero-barbarian zone with no city states (to make it double plus fun, I was Hungary). Knowing I was headed for a dark age I kept my warring defensive early and pillaged rather than conquering. The pillaging helped me keep on track, and I ended up having one of my better games even though I had to build my empire by hand.
 
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