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Deity No Tech Brok. No Vassals game

Discussion in 'Civ4 - Strategy & Tips' started by AbsoluteZero, Mar 15, 2011.

  1. AbsoluteZero

    AbsoluteZero Deity

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    Has nothing to do with the settings, I see a good target and I go for it.

    To prove my point about the settings though:

    You saw Sitting Bull with 12 cities right? That would have been a huge problem had vassal states been on. One of those AI's at war would have started losing and then peacevassalled to SB. Then you would have a super-SB and he would have capitulated the AI he was at war with ( esp considering his huge unit spam ). Then you have a SB with 12 cities and 2 vassals, and from there he could start rolling over AI's until he vassalled the entire continent. Game over.

    You also noticed how long the wars have been going on? There are two reasons for that:

    1. The AI's don't have as many techs to buy peace with, because no tech brokering.

    2. No vassal states, the AI that starts losing lots of troops and ( maybe 1 ) city will capitulate in a normal game. But instead they just keep waring and burning up units and slowing down the tech pace even further.
     
  2. Mylene

    Mylene Deity

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    Of course i noticed that (and knew it).:p
    I've seen other bad things happening with the above settings as well, oh well.
    Maybe you are just better, i don't pay as much attentiont to Civ as i did to Homm3 and EQ.
    But "that is how it is" discussions are not very interesting when you are on the receiving end.
    Seems we sorted this out, the forum can move on and back to the standard settings - good night ;)
     
  3. vanillasine

    vanillasine Warlord

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    u mean the whole we fear u are too advanced?1
     
  4. babar

    babar King

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    I guess that too (not sure how that affects AIs), but I was thinking more that AIs will generally only do extortionist trades with humans, while trading fairly (and often over generously) with each other.
     
  5. NihilZero

    NihilZero WHEOOHRNY

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    That really does seem to be the case, and I often wonder about that. Surely how the AIs value techs can't actually differ depending on whether they are dealing with a human or an AI? There seems to be some randomness about how the AIs get techs you thought they shouldn't have been able to afford, but I don't know if this is just because there are unknown variables like a lot of cash changing hands, or trading for partially researched techs (which would mean that what seems to be a lopsided trade might actually be fair).
     
  6. JammerUno

    JammerUno King

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    NTB doesn't slow down the AI as much as it improves the value of beelining techs. If you do a standard philo-edu-lib bulb and take nat from lib, you can trade each of those 4 tech to every AI as a monopoly every time. You can backfill everything you skipped with one tech, because that tech can't be brokered by the AI.
     
  7. NihilZero

    NihilZero WHEOOHRNY

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    No tech brokering also removes one obstacle to tech trading, which is that sometimes you can't let a tech get into circulation for fear that your enemies will acquire it from the guy you just gave it to. Many is the tempting deal I have had to reject for precisely this reason. So in one sense, no trech brokering increases your trade opportunities rather than reducing them.

    The more I think about it, the more it seems that NTB should be pretty good for the player.
     
  8. AbsoluteZero

    AbsoluteZero Deity

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    Won domination in 1655.

    Still uploading vids so be patient.

    Conclusions:

    No vassal states and no tech brokering definitely make the game easier not harder. No disrespect to the people who thought that was the case, but it just wasn't so.

    No vassal states allowed me to pick on the AI's one by one with impunity. Not to mention it slowed AI land gain to a crawl. The way the AI's gain land is mostly through vassaling, either peacevassal or capitulation. With vassals off the AI's go to war and trade a few towns back and forth for a while but never really gain much, or at least not for a very long time.

    No tech brokering didn't slow me down much, I lib'd military tradition at 840 AD and that was after an early rush with a semi-poor start. It did slow the AI's down a lot though, most didn't even have MT or rifling at 1500 AD :crazyeye:

    Vids and spoils:

    Spoiler :


    Started with a HA rush vs HC who was building techs like a mofo. He built all the good early stuff and I took it from him and left him 1 town after he gave me MC for peace.

    Then I won lib in 840 AD and picked MT. Whipped a huge cuir army around 1000 AD and backstabbed SB who got 13 cities peacefully ( somehow ). SB had a colossal army ( I estimate around 100 free roaming units ) and he was a pain to wear down, but once I did the game was basically mine. I took a bunch of his cities and extorted tech for peace then dogpiled on augustus, took a bunch of his cities and a few techs then went after Brennus. Took a bunch of his cities and a tech then was very close to domination so I took a few more cities from WVO to secure the domination win in 1655.

    part 1

    part 2

    part 3

    part 4

    part 5

    part 6

    part 7

    part 8

     
  9. Gwaja

    Gwaja King

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    Now all we need is for AZ to show us how to play a Deity game with Raging Barbarians and Aggressive AI! ^_^
     
  10. Jester Fool

    Jester Fool Emperor

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    I gotta admit, AZ, you tha man!! No offense, but I wish someone would show you up on score (might be hard considering you have gotten 200K+ before). I really feel that competition is good -- we're all "friends" so no hard feelings for whoever gets the best score. It WON'T be me of course, since I suck (playing Emperor). :lol: Regardless, keep the vids coming. I love winners (and I think I've learned a little something something too.) :)
     
  11. ColossusXXIII

    ColossusXXIII Warlord

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    GG

    Listen, you played one game with those settings. Not saying there's no merit to your arguments, but I think there's a few things you aren't considering. every setting has plus' and minus', I think no brokering changes the game significantly. easier or harder? That depends on your play style. If you rely heavily on tech trades or war bribes NTB will certainly slow you down. If you don't then who really cares... 840AD lib to MT is lib>inda slow, compared to a regular game where it can often be had a bit earlier. I got steel with Isabella in 920AD not too long ago with (diety+normal) brokering on of course.

    Vassals in the hands of the User, are far more dangerous than in the hands of the bad AI. One early vassal, can have you steam rolling Ai's in both tech and war. The point is being the one to vassal others and not to let the Ai run away. It's a 2 way street. You can abuse, or get abused...

    No vassals, guarantees one thing longer and often slightly more difficult wars. Usually solo wars, no Vassal buffers or allies. If you go to war with no vassals either, you take out the enemy all the way, or you leave behind a wounded enemy and make peace. With vassals on, often you take 3 out of 10 cities and you get a lap dog for the rest of the game, which only makes everything else easier from then on in. get 2 vassals (pretty easy) and it's almost a diplo win locked up signed and sealed.

    With no vassals, attempting to clear a continent during a single rush is extremely difficult. Vassals on- you throw out 15-20 curis, take 3 cities from AI 1, cap him, and keep going to the next civ. Except now it's 2 on 1 in your favor... take 2-3 more cities, cap him and move on.And so on and so forth until you either get a diplo win or crush everyone pretty easy. the whole trick is getting the vassal ball rolling which takes skill and timing don't get me wrong.

    playing 1 game, and then saying you felt like it was easy or easier, isn't exactly science. But honestly who cares about the subtle variations in settings, They each offer unique individual challenges. I have wins playing with both setting types, as well as wins on both marathon and normal speed. you can modify your play style to be more effective under each individual situation. Harder or easier? depends who ya ask I guess.
     
  12. ColossusXXIII

    ColossusXXIII Warlord

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    admittedly, no vassals doesn't leave anywhere dor the weakling civs to hide.

    Also nice finish date, I've never managed dom that early no matter the settings.
     
  13. AbsoluteZero

    AbsoluteZero Deity

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    A good attack date for Cuirs is around 700 AD. My attack date with Cuirs on this map was 1050 AD, so it was definitely late, but considering I started with mediocre land and had to recover from a rush I don't think I was slowed down by much. Certainly no TB handicapped me way less then the AI's, many who didn't get MT until after 1500 AD. Usually all the AI's have that by 1000 AD.

    This is just wrong. Why? Because it's a pain to get that early vassal. You have to grind an AI down to 1-3 cities, capitulate, then you have to recover and get back in the tech race. The AI on the other hand just takes a couple of cities and vassals them easy because of their much larger power rating.

    This is hard, and then there is the dreaded peacevassal, which you almost cannot stop.

    No you can't, the AI can, but not you. Not until you have already won the game do you have a power rating high enough to take just 3 out of 10 cities and capitulate. Try it.

    Eh? I didn't have much trouble, watch my vids ( I should have them all uploaded by tomorrow ). I never teched passed cuirs and swept the map.

    It was exactly what I expected, I can't see how another game would prove any different. Having no vassal states allowed me to just steamroll AI's one at a time. No TB didn't hurt me anywhere near as much as the AI's. I also payed some attention to that game you played a while back demonstrating flanking promotions, the AI's seemed a little backwards there too and you did a lot of things that would have been too dangerous with vassal states ( attacking weak AI's without managing diplo first for example ).

    Conquering the world one city at a time is fun though, I'll give you that :)
     
  14. babar

    babar King

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    NTB, no vassals is more fun!
     
  15. Mylene

    Mylene Deity

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    You have some funny opinions my friend, considering the candy land HC always gives his beater, and the Rush that is about the easiest that can happen on Deity ;)
     
  16. Dirk1302

    Dirk1302 Deity

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    An early rush will slow your tech pace down even if you prepare very well. About vassalization imo no vassals makes the game considerably easier for the human player. Especially your target suddenly vassalizing to someone else and the consequent peace break out can be a huge pain, you have to be on the lookout constantly for that type of thing.

    And then there's the headache of your weak targets like MM and Ghandi peacefully vassalizing to the big dogs.

    @AZ, settling on the rice? Gives you an opening advantage i agree but it's irrigated rice being next to oasis if i'm not mistaken? If it's not i understand somewhat better, even then you lose out on some food after CS.
     
  17. AbsoluteZero

    AbsoluteZero Deity

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    My starting land was mediocre. HC's land was OK ( no, actually his wonders were good, his land was so-so ) but a lot of it was whipped down to nothing and had to recover. That's typical of an early rush.

    I don't know why you keep harping on the easiness of HC. What does that have to do with anything? Doing an early rush makes things harder not easier, even if it's Gandhi.

    I rushed because there was a nice target and I didn't have the good land for 6 cities. Too much jungle. If I had been able to do the "6 cities and tech to lib" route this map would have been even easier.

    The tech path I took didn't leave time for getting AG until I traded for alpha, so I sacrificed the later +2 food for an early +1. I figured it was a good tradeoff.
     
  18. Mylene

    Mylene Deity

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    Iam just pulling your finger :D
    You prolly didn't have to whip down everything, considering how much of an overkill he was with all the horses you had. Anyway, the cities you got are better than what you usually get when expanding peacefully on a Pangea, so i wouldn't exactly call that a slow start.
    Iam not kissing someone's butt just cuz he beat Deity and comes to the conclusion the settings made it so much easier, iam a hardcore raider etc so we always strife for the best and i see when something is a bit shaded ;)
     
  19. arigold

    arigold Chieftain

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    Hmm, your assertions have been proven false so please accept the facts with some degree of humility else things get more embrassing... :cry:
     
  20. Dirk1302

    Dirk1302 Deity

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    @AZ like you did in that game where you delayed researching AH because you beelined alpha and had to delay working a hill sheep tile. Pretty original , i still have some doubts if it's really best to play this way but you get good results with it so there must be something in it.
     

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