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[DEITY] OCC Brutal: Always war, Open land, Tech Trade enabled, against tech leaders.

Discussion in 'Civ4 - Strategy & Tips' started by ScorpionK, Jul 11, 2013.

  1. ScorpionK

    ScorpionK Warlord

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    Hello and welcome to the next chapter of my One City Challenge, the next brutal level as the title said: Always war, no luxury resources, total open land, enable AI tech trading, with AI combination of all type, even got 2 FIN leaders. It is truly brutal.

    But let me use the first post to say thank you to guys from last thread for their posts, they cheer me up and gave me a lot of nice (and crazy) ideas. :goodjob:

    Thank you, Doshin and Snaaty for replay my previous challenge, gave me a lot advice.

    Thank you, Tachy and BornInCantaloup for your intersting suggestion at bump up the challenge.

    Thank you, Sun Tzu Wu and Seraiel for you clear and informative posts.

    Last but absolutely not the least, thank you, RagingHordes and bhavv for your cheer up and re-play the challenge. I am really happy to know that others enjoy those challenge.

    I hope that you will enjoy the challenge this time. :D

    Let's GO. :D:D
     
  2. ScorpionK

    ScorpionK Warlord

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    This time, I say goodbye to Japan empire, choosing Lincoln of Mali. Why so?

    Compare with Suliman who got more GG, Lincoln with ChA will help me got super defender faster which ensure my survival, now we only got city to defend, so number is not needed.

    Mali? Again, survival. Before longbows, no other UU can defend city as well as Skirmisher.

    With the nice combination of AIs leader: 2 FIN leaders, 1 IMP, 1 IND, 2 warmongers, we got

    Hannibal of Carthege
    Monty of Vikings
    Shaka of Ottomans
    Darius of Babylon
    Jao of India
    Roosevert of Inca

    Here is our start, a lot of food, but believe me that we could never got chance to improve the fifth food. No lux resources so no early commerce, in fact, with open land, no late commerce as well. Also crappy hammer. Let's see if I could survive this one.





    As usual, I send the warrior to kill as many scout as possible, the aim for him is woodsman 3 medic 1. Which he achieved easily enough, thanks to CHA. After this, I stop his promotion and make him the cleanup fighter, kill left over chariot or HA.
    My first tech is masonry, and got my hand on GW as soon as possible. Now, let's wait for our dear Gspy.





    This is an important moment, the real reason for the whole open land craziness. To let AI settle the city as close as possible. Am I lucky?




    Or not, a few turn later, that dear city become the holy city of Hindu. Damn, it gonna cost a lot EP to spread culture to that city.




    Some small fight helps me get my first GG, he will help me hold my capital for a very long time.




    In 2060, I oracle CoL, the key tech for EE. And with this start, no way to oracle CS.




    Yep, my first Gspy, settled him to get nice 4 beakers. I still doing self research for a bit.




    The very first combine attack for 2 warmongers, but my dear skirmisher kicked their asses really hard the next turn.




    Another example of skirmisher and how I prepare for the next GG. 1 against 5, not even a scratch on him.




    I still try to get some wonder, ToA is a nice one cause it will give me GProphet, hammer is really precious in this start.




    Uh oh, am I lucky? Got 2nd Gspy for 20% chance, he instant build Scot yard, double EP, now is time to check out my dear neighbor.




    I don't actually aim for Mids, but it is nice to have, REP is good no matter what and GE is totally welcome.




    My first steal. Got Math with 0,7 cheaper than beaker cost. This number will soon goes down, just not yet.




    Eh, seem like the fate really want me to goes with EE, the third GP is another Gspy.




    One more step closer to super defender.




    And this tech screen show how terrible I am backward. Also the nightmare of AI tech trading. Hannibal got 5 tech via trading, is he the new Mana hoe??




    Now is time for me to prepare for culture discount, as the tech become more and more expensive.




    Yep, the key tech which I self research. In other start, this tech is a must have, but for this super low commerce capital, CS is more like a "nice to have" tech than a game-breaking tech.




    The important wonder to bump up my pitiful beaker. Well, it's not like I got something better to build at the moment.



    Let's me end the first part of this chapter by showing one of the rarest moment of Mali empire. No enemy at my door. Gave me about 5 seconds to breath.



    There's about hundreds of fight so I won't make you bored with those stuff, but in general I build as many defender as my gold allow.
     

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  3. Sun Tzu Wu

    Sun Tzu Wu Deity Supporter

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    This start will be really difficult, especially with Holy City next door. It will be really difficult to get a Cultural discount for Espionage. At least the Spread Culture mission offers 107 culture; it would be impractical to do missions for only 1 culture. Great luck with getting all the Great Spies. Not sure whether settling Great Spies is better than infiltration. With so many early Great Spies settling with Scotland Yard may be better.

    It's great to get a few World Wonders, especially The Great Library. Should be plenty of culture to counter the Holy City unless it builds wonders there too, but it is in war mode, so it should build more units instead.

    Keeping up with the Military Technologies should keep you in the game, long enough to win.

    You have -2% Culture discount which isn't much, but it is promising. The -16% for Espionage Point Spending is better than I expected for settled Great Spies. You probably would have gotten -50% EPS for the first Great Spy Infiltration, if you went that route. However, it does appear that your ESP keeps improving, so settled spies look good. You going 100% Espionage slider to leverage Scotland Yard, right? Yes, I see it now; I must be blind.

    Well looks like you're doing great. Keep up the great work and keep us posted.

    Sun Tzu Wu
     
  4. Sun Tzu Wu

    Sun Tzu Wu Deity Supporter

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    Oops, I see most screen shots with 100% research and only one screen shot with 100% espionage slider. In my opinion, you should stay with 100% espionage slider.

    Your game may have been better with The Pyramids, since all those settled Great People would gain 3 Bpt each with Representation.

    Would be nice to get to Constitution for Jails and Democracy for Security Bureaus. Not sure that is a pratical beeline yet though.

    Sun Tzu Wu
     
  5. ScorpionK

    ScorpionK Warlord

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    It is true that got holy city next door is a really bad thing. Getting the culture discount up is very expensive. But the good news is by spread culture, I got discount for spending EP, also.

    I thought we get spending discount when we "spend" our EP, not when we put EP on someone?

    If I am right, the Gspy mission will not help me to got spending discount? BTW, I play EE quite many times but never see 50% discount on spending EP, about 33% is my max.

    I build wonder for their effect, forgot about the culture they give, cool :D


    I agree with 100% espionage slider, I raise beaker slider just to get drama, CS, paper and education pior-rifle. I steal all other tech, from Feu to rifling.

    But my strategy is a bit difference from pure EE, I will explain better in my next chapter.
     
  6. Killroyan

    Killroyan Deity

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    As far as I can tell he does have the pyramids. What are your civs right now ScorpionK? About settling all great spies. After settling the first and building SY the second one I would have opted for an infiltration mission. You can steal so many techs right now. That one Great Spy can be worth metal casting/construction/monarchy/mathematics/Agri/AH/sailing with no problems. You only need a few spies. Since you are higher in level then me can you tell me the reasoning behind settling?
     
  7. ScorpionK

    ScorpionK Warlord

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    I just did some test, and infiltration mission indeed give spending EP discount. Even at late game, they give 5% discount, which is really nice. So maybe it is a mistake to settled after 2 first Gspy. :(

    I am by no mean a high level player, I just play Civ 3 months ago. But here is why I settled:

    With infiltration mission, I got 9000 EP, it's huge. But a settled Gspy will pay them off after about 264 turn(with 100% bonus to EP and 50% bonus to beaker). This game will last very long if I got unlucky. So I sacrifice the short term benefit to got long term one. ;)

    My current plan is going pure EE while self-research by REP beakers. I did get Mids.:D

    My current Civs is Mali, as I said before, it it about survival. Without Skirmisher, I doubt any UU can survival this. Not to mention that I got no metal, no horse at all. :p
     
  8. ScorpionK

    ScorpionK Warlord

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    This chapter is the brutal struggling on the way to get riflemen. My units is always at fight with stronger enemy with number disadvantage as well. But let's start with something nice.

    Another Gspy, how could that be?? GRN could be really fun sometimes. For wonder economy, this will be really bad, but this time, Gspy is more than welcome.




    Yes, this year is a really important year, Feu comes in. This mean safety, this mean survival and this mean hope.

    Note that now I got the tech for 0,5 beaker cost, really nice for a super low commerce capital like this. At the moment, I got 20% discount from culture, I don't spread more because the mission become so expensive, and they only give 1% discount for each mission. This is a bad thing of having holy city next door.




    Normally, I wouldn't mention GT, but in this scenario GT is not only a mean to grow the city. It is the hammer via slavery. This capital not only low on commerce, it is also got crappy hammer potential, without slavery, I could get nothing built.

    Able to use slavery is another nice thing about espionage economy compare to wonder economy. GT allow me to 1 pop whip without care about happiness, 1 pop whip also yield better than 2 or 3 pop whip.

    As you may notice, I got no metal, no horse in my cap, so no effective counter against knight or cuirs, not to mention that I can not build CR3 GG now. That's why I need more number to leverage the disadvantage.




    This tech is also a key difference to wonder economy, now is time to bump my EP a bit, and get some protection with castle. My capital defense is in a really bad shape.




    Gunpowder comes in nearly 300 years later, musket is by no mean a dependable unit, but at the moment, cuirs is coming any minutes. And knight already give me enough trouble. Even if they are weak, with numbers, musket could defend well.




    I think this situation is a bit lucky, cause Darius decided to goes for rifleman before Military tradition, so I could get rifle from him, but my musket and longbow is no match for rifle, I need to make up by more and more troop number.




    Here is the tech situation at the moment, I still got Replace Parts and rifling to go, while Roosevelt could get Gren or maybe cannon already. Lucky that he is not an unit spammer so my defense could hold up somehow.




    Oh well, just what I need, Roosevelt got cannon. My musket die left and right, thanks to GT and slavery, I could replace them as needed. The Mali empire is having a real hard time.




    Half century after the first cannon assault, I got RP. The journey to rifleman still far, very far. But let's keep the hope up.




    And they are here at last, rifling after Darius got it about 200 years, this is a weakness of EE, but in this situation, I don't know if wonder eco could keep up? Because I still got tech at 0,46 beaker cost. A super nice price for that capital.




    Rifling comes just in time, as a few turns later, Roosevelt send his biggest SOD. At those time, I really feel appreciated for super heroes. They defend city so well. This stack die in order for another GG to born. I keep build riflemen non-stop to replace those muket. The new riflemen got 3 promotion, hill 2 and CG 1, not drill line, because the main use of support defender is against knight and cuirs, which got FS-immune.




    Let me end this chapter here to have a bit breathing time. Got rifle means I am safe, now relax a bit and making plan.

    The next chapter will be: Trouble, trouble, scratch everything, making new plan, shift for another gear. :D
     
  9. Killroyan

    Killroyan Deity

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    Do I spot a destroyer in the last screenshot from Roosevelt? Just above the clams? Oh boy, you are in trouble :)

    About civs, I did of course mean the civics like slavery/bureau/rep etc.... :p
     
  10. ScorpionK

    ScorpionK Warlord

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    Not a big trouble as naval win by number; and all my ship got drill :lol: Whip a bit of them and trouble solved.

    Sorry to misunderstanding, I got REP, buro, slavery, mer, and OR, IIRC. The current game going really far so at the moment I change OR to Pacifism.

    I change to Pacifism too late due to my change in plan, which is another mistake. Lucky that I still can pull that off.
     
  11. ScorpionK

    ScorpionK Warlord

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    Hi, I got excited with this game so it's going really fast now. I already got into winning position despite of being so backward.

    Getting rifle means I need to make a choice, going for war now or waiting for infantry, as infantry got longer life span than rifle. I favor waiting because I kind of like to see how far EE can go in this case.

    But then, I remember something big, the security bureau. Blow up this building will cost about 1200-1600 EP in my estimate, at the moment my EP output and beaker output is quite low, so if I take infantry choice, this mean really long time. With a low commerce cap, early war is seem better choice.

    So, by choosing war, I have to scratch my long term EE plan, doing so means the settled Gspy lost their benefit. My mistake for not making plan far enough.

    My old plan is using slider for EP while research by REP beaker, running more spy than scientist. But now, change for self research as I got OX, which give 200% to beaker, while EP still got 125% (I haven't got jail), still EP from Gspy still nice and will get me 1 or 2 more lesser tech.

    If I go for war I need to do it ASAP, Darius is on his way to machine gun. So, the heroes go to the holy war, stop the devil Babylon. The first easy battle. The result is obvious.




    4 turns later, the elites pluck deep into Babylon heart, Babylon city. Too bad for Darius that he burn his SOD on my city before and he put most of his troops in border city, now he's lefted with those pitiful army.




    Follow up Babylon city, Borsippa, Sippar meet their fate not so long after. But at home, a serious trouble come, Roosevelt again. Is this guy a warmonger??

    Luckily Roosevelt delay his assault a few turn, give me enough time to whip 3 more Riflemen, the city is safe for now. I keep using the trick that I explain in the last thread, to invite the AIs attack my city as soon as possible. Because I don't want them wait and attack all at once. A joint-attack with 3 SOD will crush my city like a litte cherry.

    The heroes can not go home, so they only can push forward to the last city of Babylon ( not the actual last, but I left Darius 1 border city cause I still left about few thousand EP in his account, I need to cash out those precious EP ). Dur-kurigalzu fall in 1255 AD. Darius's ass got violated so hard that he could never stand up. *evil laugh*




    Now is time to take on the biggest and most advanced Civs, Roosevelt, this guy gave me a lot trouble of all kind. Knowing that MG is waiting, the heroes need back up (first time in my hero-using OCC ). Thanks to the fact that Roosevelt burn his SOD not long ago, the elites stab hard right in Roosevelt back. Maku Picchu is down.




    Then the knife goes deep in to Roosevelt's heart, he must bleeding quite much now. *more evil laugh*, Cuzzo down.




    Even though he is bleeding to death, all other cities of Roosevelt is hill cities, which cost a lot support units. But true warrior never stop, Ollantaytambo down.




    Not long after Ollantaytambo, Corihuyarachina down. I burn support unit like mad, cause now Roosevelt down to 1 city.




    And finally, the Inca down. Boy, I break a cold sweat for the last battle as my support unit down to 1 now, if he somehow got another city left, it will be terrible.




    Yes, I finally the tech leader in term of military. With this, the game is in the bag now. Except for Hannibal, he may get Infantry. But we gonna get to that later.




    As you can see, I run 100% EP cause I need it for spy revolt. After this, I change back to 100% beaker.

    The next chapter will be: Dealing with false intel, is it bad?? :D
     
  12. RagingHordes

    RagingHordes Wooden Shoeur

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    I just found time to go through the thread. Wow! Great achievement! Keep it up!:thumbsup:
     
  13. Killroyan

    Killroyan Deity

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    Brings out the :popcorn: Good show ScorpionK
     
  14. BornInCantaloup

    BornInCantaloup Agent of Chaos

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    No, the espionage spending discount comes from the EPs you've invested and accumulated on a target.
    Actually, there's a ratio because your own spending is weighted against the rival's spending. Then, if one spends his EPs, he loses the discount for espionage superiority.
    Infiltration allows to quickly invest XX times more EPs than the target, therefore huge spending discount.

    ... I think that's right! :lol:

    I support the settling, here.
    +3000 EPs from infiltration would allow to steal 5-8.000 beakers :eek: BCs are too early to infiltrate! Maybe when the Renaissance comes.
    100+ ep/turn will get all the classical era techs, no problem. Maybe there's a slight delay in comparison with infiltration but the settled spies are getting nice value.
    Delay = not so sure, since the hammer cost for stealing 10 techs is rather huge at that point (maaany spies).

    Probably not. Constitution directly competes with Rifling. Also, Espionage-driven economy means a "beeline" is hard to perform, in itself.


    Arf... 3 Great Spies from the Great Wall + Wonderspam. That's better than the 6 Great Merchants from Temple of Artemis + Wonderspam I had, recently.

    I haven't reached the bottom of the thread. Stopped around 1 AD. Congratulations for surviving thus far! Some early attacks looked very dangerous, especially while the Temple of Artemis was in progress. 2000-1600 BC.

    1 tile (marble), no whip (right?), size 10 granary... :eek::eek::eek: Gutsy!
     
  15. ScorpionK

    ScorpionK Warlord

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    As usual, your cheer make me blush :p:p

    May I got some? :D

    Yep, you're right, I did a test and it show 5% discount even in late game. But I don't think I lose the discount when I spend the EP.



    Totally agree here :D

    In total, I got 4 Gspy, which is crazy enough. But in my first OCC writeup, I got like 8 Gspy. GRN is a b*tch , for sure. :lol:


    You should know that you are the one who suggest open land OCC (take responsible, will you):lol::lol:

    I learn to delay whip and bronze from Snaaty and Doshin when they replay my last challenge, which is a right move in this one. It's not like I could chop at all.:D


    Actually, it is 9000 EP on marathon which is super huge.

    After the game, I agree with infiltration, because it will give me discount sooner, and 9000 EP means I could get replace parts and rifling right after Darius, which is about 250 years sooner than what I did.

    Still, this option is only viable cause I got 4 Gspy in total. It is easy to talk about it when it's over, image that I could only got 1 Gspy, which would mean end game :lol:
     
  16. paulcarri

    paulcarri Prince

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    I just wanted to say i immensly enjoy reading these, keep them going please!
     
  17. georgjorge

    georgjorge Deity Wannabe

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    Some of these stacks looked fairly threatening...How many units did you have defend the city in Medieval times - only the GG heros?
     
  18. Sun Tzu Wu

    Sun Tzu Wu Deity Supporter

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    Great game so far. No doubt you can win now.

    Bad luck with Holy City next door. If there is no religion in a closeby city, it is true that war prevents natural spread to it? I was not aware of anything that can prevent natural spread to a city with no religion, especially when it is so close to a Holy City.

    Good luck with all the Great Spies. With fewer Great Spies, like two, it may make sense to use one to construct Scotland Yard and switch on the espionage slider and use the second Great Spy to infiltrate?

    Sun Tzu Wu
     
  19. ScorpionK

    ScorpionK Warlord

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    You got it!! :D

    Eh, sorry that I don't quite sure about timeline like Medieval or classic, but in general, there are 2 main situation:

    1, Serious danger: All GG and support defender. Support defender will get hill and CG promo.

    2, Farming EXP: The least EXP GG with some defender, the number defender will equal to number of HA, Knight or Cuirs at the moment.


    Yup, with Always War, no religion will auto-spread to our city, and vice verse. It is a certain bad luck with that holy city. Otherwise, I could get better tech position.

    I actually never consider infiltration mission until Killroyan mention it. I'm still a noob.

    After he mention, I did some test and seeing that infiltration is indeed viable, but that mean putting all eggs in 1 basket, the rifle war. If everything goes wrong, it is quite hard to make a comeback.

    Infiltration will give 9000 EP which mean 18000 beakers with my current discount, if we take its help to EP spending discount, it's safe to say that 9000EP / 0.4 = 22.500 beakers, a massive number. Enough to take us through rifling. This is the reason why Gspy is more powerful than GS.

    I may try this tactics sometimes, to see how it different.
     
  20. Sun Tzu Wu

    Sun Tzu Wu Deity Supporter

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    Ideally, try for three Great Spies. With The Great Wall and a Spy specialist, just key Great Wonders like The Pyramids and no other other specialists should ensure getting three Great Spies among the first five GP with good confidence (67% GSpy). Maybe its better to not build wonders to avoid polluting the Great Spy gene pool?

    Sun Tzu Wu
     

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